Chosen by God - A study in Election

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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If you tell someone that Christ died for them and they can believe the gospel and be saved, and they are not “elect” then you lied to them.
Not if they believe.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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You assume Gods justice has to make sense........to us. According to Paul it does not necessarily have to. Paul lays to rest the question of Gods justice and mercy in Rom 9 and elsewhere. Does it make perfect sense? Maybe maybe not....to us. But it definitely makes perfect sense to God. After all he was the one who wrote about it via Paul and is dispensing it according to His divine will and eternal purposes.
So you're saying God can be a hypocrite and remain just? What's to stop a hypocritical God from claiming to not be a liar but promising you to save you and then actually condemning you? Afterall, man has no claim on God.
 

cv5

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Impossible if they are not elect. The gospel becomes a lie.
That is Gods problem. It is definitely not our problem....we are commanded to preach the gospel to every living creature. The problem with Christian philosophers is that they simply do not know their place in the scheme of things.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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So you're saying God can be a hypocrite and remain just? What's to stop a hypocritical God from claiming to not be a liar but promising you to save you and then actually condemning you? Afterall, man has no claim on God.
Vain and meaningless human philosophy. Doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,538
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So you're saying God can be a hypocrite and remain just? What's to stop a hypocritical God from claiming to not be a liar but promising you to save you and then actually condemning you? Afterall, man has no claim on God.
Go ahead and read Romans 9 over over and over again. That's all I really have to say on the matter.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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That is Gods problem. It is definitely not our problem....we are commanded to preach the gospel to every living creature. The problem with Christian philosophers is that they simply do not know their place in the scheme of things.
Not good enough. A lie is a lie. In your theology, preaching the gospel can become a lie. And you say that’s God’s problem? Wow!
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Go ahead and read Romans 9 over over and over again. That's all I really have to say on the matter.
I've read it plenty of times, I don't see it as supporting your view that God can be a hypocritical liar and remain just.
 
How do you preach the gospel to someone? If they are not elect, wouldn’t you be lying to them?
We are to preach to all men.
Those who are elect are God's business .
We are not lying when we tell them God saves sinners who believe .
Sounds as if you men do not understand what the gospel is.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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If you tell someone that Christ died for them and they can believe the gospel and be saved, and they are not “elect” then you lied to them.

On the road to Damascus Paul wasn't repenting he was not asking Jesus to forgive him. He was carrying a letter he obtained to arrest Christians and was in full denial that Jesus was the Christ. That's the frame of mind Saul of Tarsus was in when the Lord appeared to him that day on the road which is different in regard that he(Jesus) loved him while he was in full denial of Jesus and bent on the arrest of Christians. I thought I would point that out because it's so different from what most of us would think would be the case.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
We are to preach to all men.
Those who are elect are God's business .
We are not lying when we tell them God saves sinners who bel iui eve.
You actually are... to be honest you would need to state.. "God saves His chosen sinners."
 
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Go ahead and read Romans 9 over over and over again. That's all I really have to say on the matter.
Your attitude is such a cop out. Clearly you believe that God can be held to something since you believe what's written in the Bible. Or do you not think we can hold Him to what it says?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was put to his ACCOUNT AS RIGHTEOUSNESS!
Amen. I see nowhere in the text Abraham was forced to believe.

The same for every other person who was saved throughout history, is presently saved and will be saved in the future.... they believed
God.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,538
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Not good enough. A lie is a lie. In your theology, preaching the gospel can become a lie. And you say that’s God’s problem? Wow!
Let me clarify your position here. Are you saying that fulfilling the Great Commission and preaching the gospel is a lie? Are you saying that election is a lie? What exactly are you saying?

Because you have a problem. Election is boilerplate doctrine. Ironclad bombproof. It is literally everywhere in the Bible stated over and over and over again. And preaching the gospel and the Great Commission is what we do, there is no choice in the matter. Maybe you can't connect the two in your mind..........but that hardly matters.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Amen. I see nowhere in the text Abraham was forced to believe.

The same for every other person who was saved throughout history, is presently saved and will be saved in the future.... they believed
God.
Oh I don't know about that. I'm not going to say that anyone is forced to believe. But there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that when Gods will is exerted on the earth and he wants to have something accomplished it's going to be accomplished and that includes choosing men out of the world for his beloved Son.

Furthermore Scripture is quite clear that Isaiah Jeremiah John the Baptist and Paul ordained for service (and salvation) long before they were ever born.

Romans 9:11 sink in....
for they not yet having been born nor having done anything good or evil, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand,

Yes you read that correctly "not yet having been born". A theme resounding over and over and over again in the New Testament. I mean it is everywhere.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God!

End of story....

NO ONE gets saved because GOD willed it as MEN must HEAR the GOSPEL AND THEN CHOOSE to believe it.

You can disagree all you want, peddle some form of salvation foreign to the bible and reject the above truth all the day long and it does not CHANGE THE FACT THAT the WORD OF GOD, dia the GOSPEL MUST BE PRESENTED and then a CONSCIENCE decision to accept and believe it must come to pass for one to be saved!

You are kicking against the goads lady!
Amen again...

Repeat... CONSCIENCE decision to accept and believe it must come to pass for one to be saved!

And no where in scripture do we read regeneration preceding belief.

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
Ephesians 1:13

They never want to deal with all the scripture which refutes Calvinism.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Oh I don't know about that. I'm not going to say that anyone is forced to believe. But there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that when Gods will is exerted on the earth and he wants to have something accomplished it's going to be accomplished and that includes choosing men out of the world for his beloved Son.

Furthermore Scripture is quite clear that Isaiah Jeremiah John the Baptist and Paul ordained for service (and salvation) long before they were ever born.

Romans 9:11 sink in....
for they not yet having been born nor having done anything good or evil, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand,

Yes you read that correctly "not yet having been born". A theme resounding over and over and over again in the New Testament. I mean it is everywhere.

God clearly wanted Paul... yet even Paul stated...

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Amen again...

Repeat... CONSCIENCE decision to accept and believe it must come to pass for one to be saved!

And no where in scripture do we read regeneration preceding belief.

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
Ephesians 1:13

They never want to deal with all the scripture which refutes Calvinism.
Not only not dealing with the Scripture that refutes Calvinism, they refuse to engage in honest discussion of what most of their proof texts mean in context.

It's a pernicious system because it's easy to rip a handful of verses out of context and camp on them, and then add in a bunch of other texts that ambiguously could be read that way if the doctrine are accepted first to make it look super Biblical and then not engage with critics unless they can philosophize about "harmonizing" by which they mean twisting to suit the doctrine.

Actually taking the time to properly speak of the context and nuance of the Bible is far more difficult than adopting a soundbyte theology like Calvinism.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Amen. I see nowhere in the text Abraham was forced to believe.

The same for every other person who was saved throughout history, is presently saved and will be saved in the future.... they believed
God.

On the Cross,,in the first century AD,,the same place Paul,and Peter or me or anyone else was saved,even you. That's when and where we/you were saved. No one is saved because they said something or did something during their lives,they were trying to do or say something because they don't realize/believe that they were saved by Christ on the Cross (denying it without realizing they are).

So since they don't realize that he saved them(on the Cross) they say things like "I was saved when I was 18" and attribute it to an act that happened during their lifetime. Think through what I'm saying because I'm not asking you "have you been saved yet?" I'm instead trying to explain to you that you are and that you were saved on the Cross by Jesus blood and hoping it dawns on your mind .
 
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