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What you call ample evidence I call paucity and poverty.
Please tell us what this text means in its plain reading:
Rom 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew [[[predetermined relationship in eternity past]]], He also predestined [[[Gods eternal plan from eternity past]]] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined [[[first in order of sequence]]], these He also called [[[second in order of sequence]]]; whom He called, these He also justified [[[third in order of sequence]]]; and whom He justified, these He also glorified [[[fourth in order of sequence]]].
Let me say this: by my reckoning, there is no place in the New Testament where being called PRECEDES being elect/predestinated. Only those elect, only those foreknown, only those predestinated, only those appointed go on to complete the sequence of called, justified, glorified.
And one other point......Who's doing the calling to begin with? We certainly are not meeting God halfway when He is doing the calling are we? No call no salvation IMO.
Here are some bonus scriptures for you to ponder.
Matt 13:11
He replied, "The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:37
Everyone the Father gives Me [[[first of all, then they]]] will come [[[many of them yet future, and ALL CHRISTIANS not yet saved]]] to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away.
Yes, the Father giving to the Son occurs long before people are saved, before most are even born. Certainly includes all Christians born in this day and age.
Please tell us what this text means in its plain reading:
Rom 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew [[[predetermined relationship in eternity past]]], He also predestined [[[Gods eternal plan from eternity past]]] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined [[[first in order of sequence]]], these He also called [[[second in order of sequence]]]; whom He called, these He also justified [[[third in order of sequence]]]; and whom He justified, these He also glorified [[[fourth in order of sequence]]].
Let me say this: by my reckoning, there is no place in the New Testament where being called PRECEDES being elect/predestinated. Only those elect, only those foreknown, only those predestinated, only those appointed go on to complete the sequence of called, justified, glorified.
And one other point......Who's doing the calling to begin with? We certainly are not meeting God halfway when He is doing the calling are we? No call no salvation IMO.
Here are some bonus scriptures for you to ponder.
Matt 13:11
He replied, "The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:37
Everyone the Father gives Me [[[first of all, then they]]] will come [[[many of them yet future, and ALL CHRISTIANS not yet saved]]] to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away.
Yes, the Father giving to the Son occurs long before people are saved, before most are even born. Certainly includes all Christians born in this day and age.
Stitching a bunch of verses together, out of context does not support this false dogma... it just shows that you are imposing a view on scripture.
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