What about your denominations creed(s)?

[eternally-gratefull]

hi EG:

this is why i'm stumped that you say Daniel 9 isn't fulfilled:

God however, proves he is God by making literal prophesies. If he says such and such will happen in 100 years, it will happen just the way he said it would.

Daniel 9 is TO THE DAY! and the passage in question is extremely precise and does not use figurative language (unlike Revelation 20 which uses figurative language, including the "times" involved)

The reason is simple,

Daniel was told at the end of the 69th week Messiah would be cut off (the hebrew word here means killed.) Which means at the end of the 69th week. Christ was crucified fulfilling the first 69 weeks literally as Daniel was told it would happen.

What we have left after this is the 70th week. Which if the first 69 weeks were fulfilled literally. then the 70th week should be fulfilled literally. What Is Daniel told by the archangel about the 70th week?

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

Timeline:

1. Seven weeks and 62 weeks from the order to rebuild Jerusalem until messiah the prince. (not this is not to rebuild the temple. But the city. Alot of people get the beginning wrong. The order to rebuild the temple was given many years before the order to rebuild the city.)
2. Messiah enters the city of Jerusalem to the literal time Daniel said he would. He even said,

Luke 19:

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.


This was the end of the 69th week. If Israel had known it, they would have known it was the day the messiah came, but they did not. so what Did jesus say would happen?

43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Which if we look back to daniel, this very thing Jesus just prophesied was also prophesied by daniel:

Dan 9: 26B

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

3. A week later, Messiah the prince hung on a cross crucified, or was "cut off"
This marks the end of the 69th week. far as Daniel said, after a week and 62 week (69 weeks) messiah will be cut off.

Now, is there a gap between the 69th and 70 weeks, and can it be shown from scripture?

1. Both Daniel and Jesus prophesied that the temple and city of Jerusalem would be destroyed. This did not happen within 7 years after Messiah was "cut off" in fact it did not happen for almost 40 years. so we already have an issue with time. Either there is a gap, or God lied to daniel about the 70 weeks. Again, the first 69 happened til the day, why would we symbolize the last week? it makes no sense.

2. The archangel told daniel other things would happen in this time frame after messiah will be cut off. In fact he gave a time frame (although no literal time frame is given)

Dan 9: 26c

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

This time after the 69th week or after messiah is cut off will continue "until the end of desolations are determined". yet we are not given a time limit of how long this time will be. so it is unknown. However, we can easily see, since the rest of the prophesy has not yet been completed, or even started, that this time continues today.

how does the angel end the 70 week prophesy?

Dan 27:

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

This one week period would be the conclusion of the 70 week timeframe given by the archangel to Daniel. we see a few things.

1. He (the prince who is to come, who is from the people who destroyed the sanctuary) will make a covenant with many
2. This covenant of peace is worldwide (many) but especially concerns Israel, for sacrifice and offering will resume in the temple. How do we know this? we know it from what Daniel is told, and also what Jesus states, when he speaks of this "end time"
3. In the middle of this week, The prince who is to come will end sacrifice and offering, and commit the abomination of desolation. Again Jesus speaks of this.

matt 24: 15:
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[a] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

This also proves there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. For Jesus said the middle of the 70th week will not happen until the abomination which will occur by the "prince who is to come" Who according to the archangel, is a prince who will come out of the people who destroys the sanctuary, almost 40 years after the messiah is Cut off signifying the end of the 69th week.

This is why I say the prophesy of Daniel 9 is only partially fulfilled. It has only been fulfilled till the end of the 69th week. The 70th week, and things which are prophesied to occur during this time, have yet to happen. so the prophesy could not have been completely fulfilled.

 

[zone]

The reason is simple,

Daniel was told at the end of the 69th week Messiah would be cut off (the hebrew word here means killed.) Which means at the end of the 69th week. Christ was crucified fulfilling the first 69 weeks literally as Daniel was told it would happen.

What we have left after this is the 70th week. Which if the first 69 weeks were fulfilled literally. then the 70th week should be fulfilled literally. What Is Daniel told by the archangel about the 70th week?

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

Timeline:

1. Seven weeks and 62 weeks from the order to rebuild Jerusalem until messiah the prince. (not this is not to rebuild the temple. But the city. Alot of people get the beginning wrong. The order to rebuild the temple was given many years before the order to rebuild the city.)
2. Messiah enters the city of Jerusalem to the literal time Daniel said he would. He even said,

Luke 19:

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.


This was the end of the 69th week. If Israel had known it, they would have known it was the day the messiah came, but they did not. so what Did jesus say would happen?

43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Which if we look back to daniel, this very thing Jesus just prophesied was also prophesied by daniel:

Dan 9: 26B

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

3. A week later, Messiah the prince hung on a cross crucified, or was "cut off"
This marks the end of the 69th week. far as Daniel said, after a week and 62 week (69 weeks) messiah will be cut off.

Now, is there a gap between the 69th and 70 weeks, and can it be shown from scripture?

1. Both Daniel and Jesus prophesied that the temple and city of Jerusalem would be destroyed. This did not happen within 7 years after Messiah was "cut off" in fact it did not happen for almost 40 years. so we already have an issue with time. Either there is a gap, or God lied to daniel about the 70 weeks. Again, the first 69 happened til the day, why would we symbolize the last week? it makes no sense.

2. The archangel told daniel other things would happen in this time frame after messiah will be cut off. In fact he gave a time frame (although no literal time frame is given)

Dan 9: 26c

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

This time after the 69th week or after messiah is cut off will continue "until the end of desolations are determined". yet we are not given a time limit of how long this time will be. so it is unknown. However, we can easily see, since the rest of the prophesy has not yet been completed, or even started, that this time continues today.

how does the angel end the 70 week prophesy?

Dan 27:

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

This one week period would be the conclusion of the 70 week timeframe given by the archangel to Daniel. we see a few things.

1. He (the prince who is to come, who is from the people who destroyed the sanctuary) will make a covenant with many
2. This covenant of peace is worldwide (many) but especially concerns Israel, for sacrifice and offering will resume in the temple. How do we know this? we know it from what Daniel is told, and also what Jesus states, when he speaks of this "end time"
3. In the middle of this week, The prince who is to come will end sacrifice and offering, and commit the abomination of desolation. Again Jesus speaks of this.

matt 24: 15:
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[a] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

This also proves there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. For Jesus said the middle of the 70th week will not happen until the abomination which will occur by the "prince who is to come" Who according to the archangel, is a prince who will come out of the people who destroys the sanctuary, almost 40 years after the messiah is Cut off signifying the end of the 69th week.

This is why I say the prophesy of Daniel 9 is only partially fulfilled. It has only been fulfilled till the end of the 69th week. The 70th week, and things which are prophesied to occur during this time, have yet to happen. so the prophesy could not have been completely fulfilled.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


IN THE MIDDLE.
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK.
NOT THE START OF THE 69TH, NOT THE START OF THE 70TH.
NOT THE END OF THE WEEK, NOT THE END OF EITHER THE 70TH OR THE 69TH.

JESUS WAS EITHER CUT OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 69TH WEEK OR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 70TH.

WHICH IS IT?

WHAT GAP??? the only reason the GAP was invented was to make the Chruch PLAN B and to make room for ZIONISM (of all stripes).

DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY. pure and simple.

 

[zone]

This was the end of the 69th week. If Israel had known it, they would have known it was the day the messiah came, but they did not. so what Did jesus say would happen?.

huh?

IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK (BY HIS ATONING DEATH) HE CAUSED THE OLD SYSTEM TO END.

FINISHED.

AND?

so the Kingdom is on hold to add a 1,000 year period at the end of redemptive History so the jews can "get right with G-d under Moses"?

the remnant (as prophesied) believed, but THAT'S NOT WHAT GOD MEANT, RIGHT? they blew it and now He is in trouble....He has to do something TO FIX THIS, RIGHT?

so He has to scramble to invent Plan B (which you call the mystery church age - scofield gave you that)

while the Plan B (gentile?) church is in the sky for 7 years then comes down does WHAT EXACTLY?

float around the globe in spirit bodies teaching temporarily resurrected blind jews so they can.......WHAT EXACTLY?

all because of a SINGLE PHRASE used in a Book that uses symbolism.

EVERYTHING ELSE IN THAT BOOK CAN BE IMAGERY, but not a number..., right?


FIRST ADVENT..........................................short space..SECOND ADVENT/ETERNITY

 

[eternally-gratefull]

huh?

IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK (BY HIS ATONING DEATH) HE CAUSED THE OLD SYSTEM TO END.

FINISHED.

AND?

so the Kingdom is on hold to add a 1,000 year period at the end of redemptive History so the jews can "get right with G-d under Moses"?

the remnant (as prophesied) believed, but THAT'S NOT WHAT GOD MEANT, RIGHT? they blew it and now He is in trouble....He has to do something TO FIX THIS, RIGHT?

so He has to scramble to invent Plan B (which you call the mystery church age - scofield gave you that)

while the Plan B (gentile?) church is in the sky for 7 years then comes down does WHAT EXACTLY?

float around the globe in spirit bodies teaching temporarily resurrected blind jews so they can.......WHAT EXACTLY?

all because of a SINGLE PHRASE used in a Book that uses symbolism.

EVERYTHING ELSE IN THAT BOOK CAN BE IMAGERY, but not a number..., right?


FIRST ADVENT..........................................short space..SECOND ADVENT/ETERNITY

Sorry Zone.

I can not see this. Daniel says at the END OF THE 69th week messiah will be cut off. Not in the middle of the 70th week. We just will not see the same things thats all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


IN THE MIDDLE.
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK.
NOT THE START OF THE 69TH, NOT THE START OF THE 70TH.
NOT THE END OF THE WEEK, NOT THE END OF EITHER THE 70TH OR THE 69TH.

JESUS WAS EITHER CUT OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 69TH WEEK OR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 70TH.

WHICH IS IT?

WHAT GAP??? the only reason the GAP was invented was to make the Chruch PLAN B and to make room for ZIONISM (of all stripes).

DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY. pure and simple.

He was not cut off in the middle of any week. He was cut off after the 69th week. There IS NO MIDDLE

The prince who is to come will commit the abomination of desolation in the middle. Even Jesus states that when we see this abomination mentioned by daniel. we should know the end is near. It is NOT JESUS WHO STOPS THE SACRIFICE AND COMMITS THE ABOMINATION in the middle.

 

[zone]

He was not cut off in the middle of any week. He was cut off after the 69th week. There IS NO MIDDLE

ok.
let's look at this:

He was cut off after the 69th week.


when after?

when was he cut off?

one second after the 69th week ended?

five hundred years after the 69th week ended?

where is the vacuum of space at the end of the 69th week in which Jesus was cut off?

or is AND AFTER flowing smoothly into the week which follows the 69th, the 70th?

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And after

what does this mean, AND AFTER?

after the 69th week, what happens? the 70th begins, right?

or.....is God the Author of confusion and He rips 7 years off the end of Daniel's prophecy and drags it to an indeterminable time 2000 (?) in the future?

why would He do that? because The Pharisees rejected Jesus? He needed a new Plan i guess....

in so doing, He must devise a way to keep Israel and the Church separate, since The Pharisees rejected Jesus.

He decides to give the Church (gentiles?) to Jesus (the Bride) and He'll deal with His wife Israel in a future millnnium, but He'll have to put the blind jews through tribulation to refine them. later they'll be in charge in the millennium...or...will they?

However, the Bride is spotless, so she must be raptured out (since the Church doesn't "replace" Israel) .......God has to juggle 2 Covenants because The Pharisees rej.....

HUH?

NO.............

26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

 

[Izdaari]

Hi Izdaari,

I agree some things were limited. John had to write down what he saw by terms he knew. An example is rev 9 when John saw flying locusts with face like men sounding like horses and shooting flaming arrows from their mouths. This sounds like a modern day military helicopter (I am guessing). But John would have no clue what a helicopter was. so he wrote what he saw, and explained it as he knew how. This is not what I am talking about though. I am talking about time frames. Should we allegorise time frames and make then not literally be the time God said they would be? Why would God say such and such will be for 1000 years and not literally mean 1000 years? but instead, as some want to say, mean well over 2000 years now (Amillinialists view). This makes no sense, and to me makes God out to be a liar..

Yeah, that seems plausible for visions of modern technology. But there's a lot more symbolism in Revelation for objects than just things that might be tech that John didn't recognize. Agreed that units of time are likely to be literal.

 

[Scotth1960]

Dear eternally grateful, What does Daniel say? Does it say the temple would be destroyed in a period of time immediately following the 69th week? Did it say it must happen on a specific time schedule?
Did God predict through Daniel that the 70th week would happen immediately after the 69th? What saith the Scripture? I believe it is a question of reading Daniel more closely. How do you read it? Me. I think the Scripture is reliable, so I don't have to study this more closely. I already read somewhere that the 70th week has been fulfilled. That's good enough for me. In Erie PA Scott

The reason is simple,

Daniel was told at the end of the 69th week Messiah would be cut off (the hebrew word here means killed.) Which means at the end of the 69th week. Christ was crucified fulfilling the first 69 weeks literally as Daniel was told it would happen.

What we have left after this is the 70th week. Which if the first 69 weeks were fulfilled literally. then the 70th week should be fulfilled literally. What Is Daniel told by the archangel about the 70th week?

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

Timeline:

1. Seven weeks and 62 weeks from the order to rebuild Jerusalem until messiah the prince. (not this is not to rebuild the temple. But the city. Alot of people get the beginning wrong. The order to rebuild the temple was given many years before the order to rebuild the city.)
2. Messiah enters the city of Jerusalem to the literal time Daniel said he would. He even said,

Luke 19:

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.


This was the end of the 69th week. If Israel had known it, they would have known it was the day the messiah came, but they did not. so what Did jesus say would happen?

43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Which if we look back to daniel, this very thing Jesus just prophesied was also prophesied by daniel:

Dan 9: 26B

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

3. A week later, Messiah the prince hung on a cross crucified, or was "cut off"
This marks the end of the 69th week. far as Daniel said, after a week and 62 week (69 weeks) messiah will be cut off.

Now, is there a gap between the 69th and 70 weeks, and can it be shown from scripture?

1. Both Daniel and Jesus prophesied that the temple and city of Jerusalem would be destroyed. This did not happen within 7 years after Messiah was "cut off" in fact it did not happen for almost 40 years. so we already have an issue with time. Either there is a gap, or God lied to daniel about the 70 weeks. Again, the first 69 happened til the day, why would we symbolize the last week? it makes no sense.

2. The archangel told daniel other things would happen in this time frame after messiah will be cut off. In fact he gave a time frame (although no literal time frame is given)

Dan 9: 26c

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

This time after the 69th week or after messiah is cut off will continue "until the end of desolations are determined". yet we are not given a time limit of how long this time will be. so it is unknown. However, we can easily see, since the rest of the prophesy has not yet been completed, or even started, that this time continues today.

how does the angel end the 70 week prophesy?

Dan 27:

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

This one week period would be the conclusion of the 70 week timeframe given by the archangel to Daniel. we see a few things.

1. He (the prince who is to come, who is from the people who destroyed the sanctuary) will make a covenant with many
2. This covenant of peace is worldwide (many) but especially concerns Israel, for sacrifice and offering will resume in the temple. How do we know this? we know it from what Daniel is told, and also what Jesus states, when he speaks of this "end time"
3. In the middle of this week, The prince who is to come will end sacrifice and offering, and commit the abomination of desolation. Again Jesus speaks of this.

matt 24: 15:
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[a] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

This also proves there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. For Jesus said the middle of the 70th week will not happen until the abomination which will occur by the "prince who is to come" Who according to the archangel, is a prince who will come out of the people who destroys the sanctuary, almost 40 years after the messiah is Cut off signifying the end of the 69th week.

This is why I say the prophesy of Daniel 9 is only partially fulfilled. It has only been fulfilled till the end of the 69th week. The 70th week, and things which are prophesied to occur during this time, have yet to happen. so the prophesy could not have been completely fulfilled.

 

[Scotth1960]

Yeah, that seems plausible for visions

of modern technology. But there's a lot more symbolism in

Revelation for objects than just things that might be tech that

John didn't recognize. Agreed that units of time are likely to be

literal.

Dear Izdaari!

What verse in Revelation says that any part of Revelation is to

be fulfilled 2000 years or more after St. John wrote the book of

Revelation? Just wondering! In Erie Scott

 

[Scotth1960]

Yeah, that seems

plausible for visions of modern technology. But

there's a lot more symbolism in Revelation for

objects than just things that might be tech that

John didn't recognize. Agreed that units of time

are likely to be literal.

Dear Izdaari, I have read varying opinions on

when the 70th week is, either fulfilled right

after the 69th week, or fulfilled in 70 AD, or

yet-to-be-fulfilled in our future. Take care.


Recommended reading:

"Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks" by

Thomas Williamson 3131 S. Archer Avenue, Chicago, IL 60608

http:// Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks

God bless you Izdaari. In Erie Scott H.

 

[PKrehn]

I place my faith in the beliefs laid out in teh Apostles' and Nicene Creeds.

Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

 

[zone]

I place my faith in the beliefs laid out in teh Apostles' and Nicene Creeds.

Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Matthew 12
Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit
22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. 30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 13:39
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.

Matthew 13:40
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.

Matthew 13:49
So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

~

First Advent.........................>>>short space>Second Advent / ETERNITY

 

[Scotth1960]

I place my faith in the beliefs laid out in teh Apostles' and Nicene Creeds.

Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Dear PKrehn,
That is not what the Nicene Creed says.
The real Creed, in Greek, translated into
English, says,
And in the Holy Spirit, the LORD, the Giver of life, Who proceedeth from the Father,
Who together with the Father and the Son
is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by
the prophets .... God bless you. You are young, only 13, but know this: those who say "who proceeds from the Father and Son" are teaching you a great error. The Scripture says:
"But when the Comforter is come, Whom I shall send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, Who proceedeth from the Father, He shall bear witness to Me" (This is the voice of our LORD GOD and Saviour, Jesus Christ, speaking to us, to our hearts, in John 15:26, the Gospel of St. John). In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington PS Take care.


With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.


He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

 

[Izdaari]

Dear Izdaari!

What verse in Revelation says that any part of Revelation is to

be fulfilled 2000 years or more after St. John wrote the book of

Revelation? Just wondering! In Erie Scott

I don't remember saying that it was. Why are you asking me?

 

[Tigger2]

It is a teaching of the Church, very strictly followed in the early days, that there can be only one Bishop in a city at one time. St. Peter became the Bishop of Antioch and served there from 45 to 53. Then in 53 the second Bishop of Antioch was Eudoius. St. Peter did not die until 65 as a martyr in Rome. And it was also in 65 that Linus became Bishop of Rome. Now if Peter remained the Bishop of Antioch after 53 there would be two bishops in Antioch. St. Peter didn't die in 53 but 12 years later he died in Rome. So, the only way I can see that it's possible that Saint Peter could be relieved of his episcopacy in Antioch in 53 is by his being transferred to another see. So it is only logical, as I see it, that Saint Peter had to be the Bishop of Rome from 53 to 65; a 12 year term in Rome, which incidentally is the same number of years that Saint Linus and Saint Cletus served in Rome.

But if that isn't convincing enough for you Saint Cyprian who died in 258 says this "The Bishop of Rome is the direct heir of Peter, whereas the others are heirs only indirectly." Also here are some more quotes for you to ponder.

Tertullian (c. AD 197) speaks of Peter apart from Paul as ordaining Clement as his episcopal successor (De Praescrip Haer 32

The Poem Against Marcion (c. 200 AD) states how "Peter bade Linus to take his place and sit on the chair whereon he himself had sat" (III, 80). The word "chair" (cathedra) in ecclesiastical language always means one's episcopal throne (i.e. the bishop's chair).

Caius of Rome (214 AD) calls Pope Victor the thirteenth bishop of Rome after Peter (Euseb HE V, 28).

Firmilian (257) speaks of Pope Stephen's claim to the "succession of Peter" and to the "Chair of Peter" (Ep ad Cyprian).

Eusebius (314) says that Peter was "the bishop of Rome for twenty-five years" (Chron an 44), and calls Linus "first after Peter to obtain the episcopate" (Chron an 66). He also says that Victor was "the thirteenth bishop of Rome after Peter" (HE III, 4).

The Council of Sardica "honors the memory of the Apostle Peter" in granting Pope Julius I the right to judge cases involving other episcopal sees under imperial Roman law (Sardica Canon IV, and Ep ad Pope Julius).

Optatus (370) says that the episcopal chair of Rome was first established by Peter, "in which chair sat Peter himself." He also says how "Peter first filled the pre-eminent chair," which "is the first of the marks of the Church." (Schism Donat II, 2 and II, 3).

Pope Damasus (370) speaks of the "Apostolic chair" in which "the holy Apostle sitting, taught his successors how to guide the helm of the Church" (Ep ix ad Synod, Orient ap Theodoret V, 10). Damasus also states how "The first See is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman church" and says how Rome received primacy not by the conciliar decisions of the other churches, but from the evangelic voice of the Lord, when He says, "Thou art Peter..." (Decree of Damasus 382).

Ambrose (c. 390) speaks of Rome as "Peter's chair" and the Roman church where "Peter, first of the Apostles, first sat" (De Poenit I, 7-32, Exp Symb ad Initiand).

Jerome (c. 390) speaks of Rome as the "chair of Peter" and the "Apostolic chair," and states that Peter held the episcopal chair for twenty-five years at Rome (Epistle 15 and se Vir Illust I, 1).

Augustine (c. 400) tells us to number the bishops of Rome from the chair of Peter itself (in Ps contra Part Donat), and speaks of "the chair of the Roman church in which Peter first sat" (Contra Lit Petil).

Prudentius (405) writes how in Rome there were "the two princes of the Apostles, one the Apostle of the Gentiles, the other holding the First Chair" (Hymn II in honor of St Laurent, V).

Bachiarius (420) speaks of Rome as "the chair of Peter, the seat of faith" (De Fide 2).

Prosper of Aquitaine (429) calls Rome "the Apostolic See" and the "Chair of the Apostle Peter" (Carm de Ingratis).

The Roman legates at the Council of Ephesus (431) declare how "it is a matter doubtful to none that Peter lived and exercised judgement in his successors" and how "the holy and most blessed [Pope] Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place" (Acta Councilia, session 3, tom III, col 621).


Pope Leo the Great (440) says how "the whole Church acknowledges Peter in the See of Peter (Rome)" (Serm II, 2).

At the Council of Chalcedon (451), the assembled bishops respond to the teaching of Pope Leo the Great by crying out, "Peter has spoken through Leo." The sentence of the council is pronounced by the legates "in the name of Leo, the Council, and St. Peter" (Canons of Chalcedon).

The Synodical Letter to Pope Leo from Chalcedon calls the Pope "the interpreter of Peter's voice."

Emperors Theodosius and Valentinian III (450) speak of "the primacy of the Apostolic See (Rome), made firm on account of the merits of Peter, Chief of the Corona of Bishops" (Inter ep Leon I, Vol XI, col 637).

But in my mind what really cements the case that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome is the fact that you can not find a single ancient source that denies Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. That Peter was the first Bishop of Rome was a indisputable fact until the birth of the fundamentalist movement.

Sorry but this is just the teachings of "your church" not THE CHURCH. But you enjoy your traditions & doctrines of man. I personally will just stick with my Bible & what God said.

 

[Tigger2]

I place my faith in the beliefs laid out in teh Apostles' and Nicene Creeds.

Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

So you place your faith in the traditions & doctrines of man? I place my faith in God's Holy Word. The Bible & in God the Father & his Son Lord Jesus Christ !!!!

 

[SantoSubito]

Sorry but this is just the teachings of "your church" not THE CHURCH. But you enjoy your traditions & doctrines of man. I personally will just stick with my Bible & what God said.

I believe you will find that the quotes I listed above are not the vague oral traditions that you would like to think they are. All of the quotes are from bona fide historical documents that have been compiled by historians over the years. If you don't believe me you can look up the quotes since they're all referenced. The problem your having is that you would rather dismiss history rather than believe the plain facts that are presented to you. Let me ask you something; does the Bible ever say Peter wasn't a Bishop/Overseer in Rome? Also why would it matter to you and your faith whether Peter was a Bishop in Rome or not? Is it because if he was a bishop in Rome it leads to the possibility that maybe the RCC hasn't been lying about it's history? I would imagine that because so many apostatized Catholics' faith is based almost solely around the Catholic Church being a lying, corrupt, whore of a Church that the possibility that one of the cornerstones upon which she builds her authority could be true is disconcerting to say the least.

But on a less ranty note; I'm still waiting for you to produce a quote from an ancient author that denied Peter was a bishop in Rome (note that "your church destroyed all the documents that could have had that information" is not an acceptable answer.) If you're wanting to talk about verifiable history then both you and I need to stick to the history we have and not the history "supposedly existed at one time." Also please do not answer me with a generic argument about it being tradition. I answered you're challenge, now you can:

1. Answer my challenge to provide one ancient quote that denies Peter was a bishop in Rome
2. Concede that Peter was a bishop in Rome
3. Concede that you deny Peter was a bishop in Rome for no discernibly logical reason other than because you want to deny it, and acknowledging that he was would somehow damage your faith or go against some "Bible doctrine" your church has put forth. (Feel free to plug in some other statement after "other" to make it fit better if you need too.)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dear eternally grateful, What does Daniel say? Does it say the temple would be destroyed in a period of time immediately following the 69th week? Did it say it must happen on a specific time schedule?

No, And if you read what I posted you would have seen this.

Did God predict through Daniel that the 70th week would happen immediately after the 69th? What saith the Scripture? I believe it is a question of reading Daniel more closely. How do you read it? Me. I think the Scripture is reliable, so I don't have to study this more closely. I already read somewhere that the 70th week has been fulfilled. That's good enough for me. In Erie PA Scott

So again your trusting men? You agree just because you read what some man wrote and are not willing to study to see if he is right? Man I don't understand this!

Daniel was told the abomination of desolation will happen during the 70th week.. It has not happened yet. Daniel was told the prince who commits this abomination, who is a future prince from the people that destroyed the temple, will make a 1 week (7 year) covenant with many, and in the middle of that week (3 1/2 years) he will commit this abomination. Jesus spoke of him in his message to his disciples, "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel)

these things spoken of by daniel, told to daniel by the archangel, and mentioned by Chjrist all which will happen during the 70th week has NOT taken place yet. so the 70th week could not have happened yet. its impossible. it does not matter what some "man" wrote. If it is impossible it is impossible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok.
let's look at this:

He was cut off after the 69th week.


when after?

when was he cut off?

one second after the 69th week ended?

five hundred years after the 69th week ended?

where is the vacuum of space at the end of the 69th week in which Jesus was cut off?

or is AND AFTER flowing smoothly into the week which follows the 69th, the 70th?

Well lets see. The end of the 69th week was the DAY jesus entered jerusalem. He died one week or 7 days later. So you tell me when he was cut off.

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And after

what does this mean, AND AFTER?

after the 69th week, what happens? the 70th begins, right?

If the 70th week began immedietly after. With in 7 years of the day Jesus entered jerusalem signifying the end ot the 70th week. The prince who is to come would sign a covenant, and the abomination of desolation would have occured within the next 7 years.

1. The people who destroyed the temple, of whome the future prince who was to make this covenant and commit the abomination did not do it for another 40 year. The time frame is off by 30 some yers.

2. The prince who is to come would not have been called the prince who is to come from the people, because he would have been there already. not a future prince. So god lied.

3. the consumation that is to be determined against the desolate would have been completed within 7 years of the day Jesus entered jerusalem. This time frame is still not done, Or Christ would have already returned.

Your time line is off.

or.....is God the Author of confusion and He rips 7 years off the end of Daniel's prophecy and drags it to an indeterminable time 2000 (?) in the future?

Not to be mean or anything, But the belief that the 7oth week is already done is what is causing confusion. Because the THINGS WHICH WERE SAID TO HAPPEN DURING THIS WEEK HAS NOT HAPPENED YET!

why would He do that? because The Pharisees rejected Jesus? He needed a new Plan i guess....

in so doing, He must devise a way to keep Israel and the Church separate, since The Pharisees rejected Jesus.

He decides to give the Church (gentiles?) to Jesus (the Bride) and He'll deal with His wife Israel in a future millnnium, but He'll have to put the blind jews through tribulation to refine them. later they'll be in charge in the millennium...or...will they?

I don't question why God does things. do you? If God wants to do something does he not have the right to do it?

Romans 11 makes it clear that Israel will be forgive her sins and come back to him. God is NOT slack on his promise. He promised King David, a man he said was a man after his own heart, that someone from his seed would sit in his throne in jerusalem. Did God lie to David? Jesus is not on Davids throne right now. He is on HIS OWN THRONE at the right hand of God. He has NOT fullfiled his covenant with David. If he does not he is a liar! do you want to follow a God who is a liar? I don't.

However, the Bride is spotless, so she must be raptured out (since the Church doesn't "replace" Israel) .......God has to juggle 2 Covenants because The Pharisees rej.....

HUH?

NO.............

26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

The word midst means middle. If the 69th week ended the day entered jerusalem (which it did) then Jesus death would have to wait 3 1/2 years if he is the prince who is to come that stops sacrifice and offering. Again your timeline is off by 3 1/2 years minus 7 days!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah, that seems plausible for visions of modern technology. But there's a lot more symbolism in Revelation for objects than just things that might be tech that John didn't recognize. Agreed that units of time are likely to be literal.

I Agree and thank you