Chosen by God - A study in Election
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On second thought, I will give an interpretation to the verse you herein posted. Do not want to be seen in the same light as those who ignore verses.
You gave:
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
Ephesians 1:13
First of all this is a terrible translation. Don't know how you would get this from the Greek Text: “And you also were included in Christ".
This verse has to be taken in context, with the previous verses. It does not stand alone nor do any Bible verses. Paul had wrote, leading up to this verse, many great things.
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
Eph 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
Eph 1:10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,
Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
So before we get to verses 13, we see that the following had already been stated. The writer magnifies God's purpose and action.
1) He chose us. We did not choose Him.
2) He foreordained us unto adoption.
3) According to His good pleasure of His will, not ours.
4) He made His Grace abound toward us.
5) According to His good pleasure which He purposed in Christ.
6) We were made a heritage.
7) Having been foreordained according to purpose and counsel of His will.
Strong verses that show all things done by God, for the ones Chosen.
Now verses 12-14:
Eph 1:12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:
This whole context, is about Paul explaining what has taken place to and for believers. The unbeliever is not even in view here. Nothing but "us" and "we" plural pronouns. Verse 12, starts with "to the end that we...." which explains that everything mentioned before, comes to a point for some purpose. That purpose is, that ".... we should be unto the praise of His Glory..." Therefore, the purpose of God's counsel, is that the chosen ones should be for the purpose of praising Christ and this is forever and ever. Thus, the chosen of verse 4, are the ones unto the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,--in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
"... having heard (past tense) the Word of Truth...." Having been given the ability to hear, you heard the Gospel. First however, one must have hearing ears!
Mat_11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat_13:9 He that hath ears, let him hear.
Mat_13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
2Co_4:4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
But when God opens the hearing and eyes of one then:
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.
"...in whom, having also believed..." (again, past tense), points to the time of ones first believing in Christ. Paul is just sating a fact here. You did indeed believe in Christ, His person and His work. He in no way is suggesting, that all of the things that came before, are do to believing. Rather, that the things mentioned before are the reasons for you belief. It is also the reason for your being sealed.
"...sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise...." (again, past tense), we have been sealed. The believer is sealed for the purpose of ".... the earnest of our inheritance..." This seal takes place at the New Birth. The seal is not the New Birth, it is one of the many things given to the person, at the time of his/her regeneration (The New Birth). It is the King's Seal, that is administered over by the Holy Spirit, that legally binds us for the King of Kings. The King paid the redemptive ransom and His Servant, seals us to the promise, until His return.
2Cor 1:21 Now he that is establishing us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God;
2Cor 1:22 who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
While the Holy Spirit is the administrator of the seal.... verse 21, shows that all of the God-Head is involved.
You gave:
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
Ephesians 1:13
First of all this is a terrible translation. Don't know how you would get this from the Greek Text: “And you also were included in Christ".
This verse has to be taken in context, with the previous verses. It does not stand alone nor do any Bible verses. Paul had wrote, leading up to this verse, many great things.
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
Eph 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
Eph 1:10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,
Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
So before we get to verses 13, we see that the following had already been stated. The writer magnifies God's purpose and action.
1) He chose us. We did not choose Him.
2) He foreordained us unto adoption.
3) According to His good pleasure of His will, not ours.
4) He made His Grace abound toward us.
5) According to His good pleasure which He purposed in Christ.
6) We were made a heritage.
7) Having been foreordained according to purpose and counsel of His will.
Strong verses that show all things done by God, for the ones Chosen.
Now verses 12-14:
Eph 1:12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:
This whole context, is about Paul explaining what has taken place to and for believers. The unbeliever is not even in view here. Nothing but "us" and "we" plural pronouns. Verse 12, starts with "to the end that we...." which explains that everything mentioned before, comes to a point for some purpose. That purpose is, that ".... we should be unto the praise of His Glory..." Therefore, the purpose of God's counsel, is that the chosen ones should be for the purpose of praising Christ and this is forever and ever. Thus, the chosen of verse 4, are the ones unto the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,--in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
"... having heard (past tense) the Word of Truth...." Having been given the ability to hear, you heard the Gospel. First however, one must have hearing ears!
Mat_11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat_13:9 He that hath ears, let him hear.
Mat_13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
2Co_4:4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
But when God opens the hearing and eyes of one then:
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.
"...in whom, having also believed..." (again, past tense), points to the time of ones first believing in Christ. Paul is just sating a fact here. You did indeed believe in Christ, His person and His work. He in no way is suggesting, that all of the things that came before, are do to believing. Rather, that the things mentioned before are the reasons for you belief. It is also the reason for your being sealed.
"...sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise...." (again, past tense), we have been sealed. The believer is sealed for the purpose of ".... the earnest of our inheritance..." This seal takes place at the New Birth. The seal is not the New Birth, it is one of the many things given to the person, at the time of his/her regeneration (The New Birth). It is the King's Seal, that is administered over by the Holy Spirit, that legally binds us for the King of Kings. The King paid the redemptive ransom and His Servant, seals us to the promise, until His return.
2Cor 1:21 Now he that is establishing us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God;
2Cor 1:22 who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
While the Holy Spirit is the administrator of the seal.... verse 21, shows that all of the God-Head is involved.
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)So say you. Calvin was lead as many are to see many great Truths but the BIBLE does not belong to him, or his teachings. Truth is truth, regardless of who writes about it.
My experience, with those that are opposing Calvinism, is that they know more about what Calvin taught, than what is taught in Scripture.
My experience, with those that are opposing Calvinism, is that they know more about what Calvin taught, than what is taught in Scripture.
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T U L I P, is nothing more than man's way of expressing key points in a Doctrine. I prefer to discuss Scripture. If one of the so called T U L I P points is confirmed in Scripture, than so be it. If not, then drop it. My point being, no one should be pigeonholed, just because they may be defending some point of Scripture.
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Now now, remember that they peddle a gospel-less salvation, no choice in the matter and forced by a god that says in one verse that he would have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but only chooses extra special Calvinite man "A" while man "B thru Z" were specifically made for hell and are just outta luck!
Even though all of creation and the invisible testify in every known language and God would have ALL MEN to be saved . .
But hey....Jim Jones got his followers to drink the embellished kool aid in a revolutionary suicide moment.... !!!!
Even though all of creation and the invisible testify in every known language and God would have ALL MEN to be saved . .
But hey....Jim Jones got his followers to drink the embellished kool aid in a revolutionary suicide moment.... !!!!
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I still waiting on the "Free Willist" to give interpretations of these verses. Will probably have to wait, to the proverbial hell freezes over.
Speaking of intelligence, please give answer to what our Lord is teaching here:
Mar 8:29 And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Mar 8:30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Why was our Lord hiding from others who He was?
Mar 9:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, save when the Son of man should have risen again from the dead.
Again, why is the Lord hiding what they had seen?
Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately: and he commanded that something be given her to eat.
Luke 8:56 And her parents were amazed: but he charged them to tell no man what had been done.
And yet again?
Finally, what was the Lord teaching here?
John_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
John_6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
Speaking of intelligence, please give answer to what our Lord is teaching here:
Mar 8:29 And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Mar 8:30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Why was our Lord hiding from others who He was?
Mar 9:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, save when the Son of man should have risen again from the dead.
Again, why is the Lord hiding what they had seen?
Luke 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she rose up immediately: and he commanded that something be given her to eat.
Luke 8:56 And her parents were amazed: but he charged them to tell no man what had been done.
And yet again?
Finally, what was the Lord teaching here?
John_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
John_6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
The first three the answer is the same, His time had not yet come. It was not fully ripe that Jesus reveal Himself to the world.
John 6:44 is an issue of context and is an indictment of those who should have been the first to believe because it has been revealed to all men since "they shall be all taught of God."
And 6:64-65 is given right in the text, it's predestination based on foreknowledge. That is not the doctrine of unconditional election, but a conditional election.
John 6:44 is an issue of context and is an indictment of those who should have been the first to believe because it has been revealed to all men since "they shall be all taught of God."
And 6:64-65 is given right in the text, it's predestination based on foreknowledge. That is not the doctrine of unconditional election, but a conditional election.
your journey sounds eerily similar to mine. I would share my testimony but it would be very long indeed. I too have not really studied the bible in great depth. My knowledge and wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit. Obviously I am aware of God and Jesus journey from creation, just dont ask me to quote bible versus lol.
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Okay I am replying to this but don't think you will get anything from it.
First ----The first three the answer is the same, His time had not yet come. It was not fully ripe that Jesus reveal Himself to the world.
But don't you think it interesting that God, yea Christ would suggest hiding things so that God's purpose can be revealed? And still does.
God's actions towards Israel.... If He does this with Israel, how can one logically deduce, that He wouldn't for some of the Gentiles?
John_12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Rom_11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
God's permissive will, relating to the Devil and unbelievers:
2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Secondly ------John 6:44 is an issue of context and is an indictment of those who should have been the first to believe because it has been revealed to all men since "they shall be all taught of God."
What issue of context? The Lord is clear here, "No man can come...." ουδεις δυναται ελθειν (ουδεις meaning, "not even one, nobody, none" not just Israelite's, δυναται meaning "is able, to be possible, ελθειν meaning "to come or go"). Not "ALL" will be taught of God, for not all will be saved.
Thirdly -----And 6:64-65 is given right in the text, it's predestination based on foreknowledge. That is not the doctrine of unconditional election, but a conditional election
Prove conditional election.
First ----The first three the answer is the same, His time had not yet come. It was not fully ripe that Jesus reveal Himself to the world.
But don't you think it interesting that God, yea Christ would suggest hiding things so that God's purpose can be revealed? And still does.
God's actions towards Israel.... If He does this with Israel, how can one logically deduce, that He wouldn't for some of the Gentiles?
John_12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Rom_11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
God's permissive will, relating to the Devil and unbelievers:
2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Secondly ------John 6:44 is an issue of context and is an indictment of those who should have been the first to believe because it has been revealed to all men since "they shall be all taught of God."
What issue of context? The Lord is clear here, "No man can come...." ουδεις δυναται ελθειν (ουδεις meaning, "not even one, nobody, none" not just Israelite's, δυναται meaning "is able, to be possible, ελθειν meaning "to come or go"). Not "ALL" will be taught of God, for not all will be saved.
Thirdly -----And 6:64-65 is given right in the text, it's predestination based on foreknowledge. That is not the doctrine of unconditional election, but a conditional election
Prove conditional election.
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Most of your blather in the first half is unrelated, as those are not permanent conditions. He hid Himself for a time, no one is denying that God has purposes and does things to acheive those purposes so your point is lost on me as relating to rectifying God's character with Calvinist doctrine.
With John 6:44 you're taking a verse completely on its own, without its place in the story being told, and drawing a meaning based on it. Meaning is not gleaned at the level of sentences, not even at the level of paragraphs, but as a total within a given narrative. Which is why I included John 6:45 as part of the context which is an inclusive statement contradicting the exclusive read. The Father draws all men by teaching all men, but those who proclaim themselves teachers of God were not being drawn. The verses are an indictment of those who should have recognized Him but didn't.
And as I said, there's a condition right in John 6:64 that He knew exactly who would and wouldn't believe. It does not say He caused them to believe, but that He knew in advance.
With John 6:44 you're taking a verse completely on its own, without its place in the story being told, and drawing a meaning based on it. Meaning is not gleaned at the level of sentences, not even at the level of paragraphs, but as a total within a given narrative. Which is why I included John 6:45 as part of the context which is an inclusive statement contradicting the exclusive read. The Father draws all men by teaching all men, but those who proclaim themselves teachers of God were not being drawn. The verses are an indictment of those who should have recognized Him but didn't.
And as I said, there's a condition right in John 6:64 that He knew exactly who would and wouldn't believe. It does not say He caused them to believe, but that He knew in advance.
Speaking of blather, man o' man.
The meaning of the words are clear and precise, they would not change regardless of context. Your inclusion of "they shall all be taught of God" only places a limit on the ones that will have authority to come. The ones that can hear and be taught... those will come. As such it clarifies the who will be coming but also, indicates there is a barrier to the coming. That barrier is a barrier to all, Jew and Gentile. What then, is the barrier?
The condition you refer to in John 6:64, That Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that would not believe, Does not go back to predestination or election. The "beginning" goes back to the beginning of His Ministry, when He called the twelve out, including His betrayer. Christ knew what was in the heart of every person listening, whether it was a stony heart or a fleshy heart and what was in the mind of His listeners, any time he was preaching, healing or having a conversation. His Divine nature cannot be deceived by anyone. Proving His Omniscience. [However, that is not to say that He does not know who is in the "Lamb's Book of Life"]
You suggested conditional election.... again I say, prove it was conditional.
The meaning of the words are clear and precise, they would not change regardless of context. Your inclusion of "they shall all be taught of God" only places a limit on the ones that will have authority to come. The ones that can hear and be taught... those will come. As such it clarifies the who will be coming but also, indicates there is a barrier to the coming. That barrier is a barrier to all, Jew and Gentile. What then, is the barrier?
The condition you refer to in John 6:64, That Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that would not believe, Does not go back to predestination or election. The "beginning" goes back to the beginning of His Ministry, when He called the twelve out, including His betrayer. Christ knew what was in the heart of every person listening, whether it was a stony heart or a fleshy heart and what was in the mind of His listeners, any time he was preaching, healing or having a conversation. His Divine nature cannot be deceived by anyone. Proving His Omniscience. [However, that is not to say that He does not know who is in the "Lamb's Book of Life"]
You suggested conditional election.... again I say, prove it was conditional.
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You treat the Word hypocritically, in one place what you take as the surface read is "clear and precise" yet in others such as John 3:16 you must amend it to fit with your doctrine.
I didn't say conditional election were true, but that if your use of the verses in 6:64-65 were to support any sort of election it would be conditional election. You forwarded those verses under a discussion on election so to then add the limiter that they are not speaking eternally but only to Jesus' ministry is backpeddaling. Are they supposed to demonstrate election or not?
I didn't say conditional election were true, but that if your use of the verses in 6:64-65 were to support any sort of election it would be conditional election. You forwarded those verses under a discussion on election so to then add the limiter that they are not speaking eternally but only to Jesus' ministry is backpeddaling. Are they supposed to demonstrate election or not?
To glorify and amuse my holy father, with the help of the Holy Spirit, I have actually recreated stories based on scripture but with a totally different scenario, some are in modern times, some are back in Jesus time but in a different narrative, hard to explain without me writing a 300 page novel, but the knowledge of the bible, Jesus and Gods journey etc just pours out of me, I find it very easy to tell these stories to the lord. All plausible too. And if I get something wrong, I am soon told to alter the scene lol!
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