(Jesuit) Preterism versus John 14

[Phoneman-777]

@Phoneman-777

Did you read post #90 ?

Yes, I did.

​

You said "You are misinterpreting the verse in view of the whole chapter - which is not about the soul/spirit - rather, it is about the physical life. The statement that "but the dead know not any thing" is being used to illustrate that "when [this physical] life is over, opportunity is gone; therefore, make the best of it while you have it"; it is not referring to the state of existence of the soul apart from the body after death."​

Now, I ask you...what part of "in the grave, whither thou goest" do you not get? This passage is not simply Solomon waxing eloquent about the finality of this life - it is a pointed confirmation of that which many like you have chosen to reject about the total cessation of life in the grave in favor of the devil's lie: "thou shalt not surely die."

Solomon's words corroborate the words of Job, David, the Psalmists, Peter, etc., which all confirm there IS NO consciousness in death. The few verses that Eternal Tormentors cling to are easily and irrefutably explained to support God's Word and not Satan's lie.

 

[Phoneman-777]

There is some question, when reading through the text of Matthew 27:50-53, as to "which day" (or time-slot) that the bold occurred: "many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of their graves AFTER His resurrection ..."

When you read through those four verses, how are you reading it (to have occurred--in what order)?

Recall, verse 50 says, "Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up [*G863 - aphiémi ] the spirit" (meaning, His spirit... whereas, His body would soon be heading to the grave/sepulchre). <--So this part is what occurred on the day of His crucifixion, obviously.

* "863 aphíēmi (from 575 /apó, "away from" and hiēmi, "send") – properly, send away; release (discharge)." [referring to His spirit... His human spirit]


...but it is difficult to tell just when (in the chronology) the "many bodies of the saints... arose" because it goes on to say, "And came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection" (which we know was three days later, not the same day as His crucifixion)... so if they "arose" on a different day than when they "came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection" (3 days later), then can they really be considered "a kind of 'firstfruit' of the resurrection [of the just]," or would they be considered the same as, say, Lazarus having been raised from the dead (which also took place "before" Jesus' Resurrection on the third day after His crucifixion, see--He/Jesus Himself being called "firstfruit of those having fallen asleep" in 1Cor15:20 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-20.htm )? IOW, we do not see "the many bodies of the saints which slept arose" being referred to as "firstfruit," any more than Lazarus was, when he was raised.

I tend believe the text (these 4 verses) are written as they are (as I tried to point out, above), to make the point that WHILE Jesus did His "I ascend [active]" thing (what He told MM in John 20:17--which I believe He did THAT VERY DAY, *ON Firstfruit* fulfilling Lev23:10-12!), pointing out that which these "many" did, by contrast (-->"went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"--IOW, they did not do what Jesus Himself DID do, after His resurrection [i.e. ascend, bodily]).

A face reading of the text suggests these bodies arose at the time of the earthquake which would of course likely be at the time of Jesus' death, which seems an appropriate response called forth up from creation at the moment of the death of its Creator, no?

Suffice it to say, these dead did arise in a special resurrection and are not in heaven, but in now way constitutes the whole of the sleeping saints, which the Bible plainly says over and over will be raised up "AT THE LAST DAY", not at the moment of death.

 

[garee]

A face reading of the text suggests these bodies arose at the time of the earthquake which would of course likely be at the time of Jesus' death, which seems an appropriate response called forth up from creation at the moment of the death of its Creator, no?

Suffice it to say, these dead did arise in a special resurrection and are not in heaven, but in now way constitutes the whole of the sleeping saints, which the Bible plainly says over and over will be raised up "AT THE LAST DAY", not at the moment of death.

I think its both those dead asleep and those reigning with Christ as a kingdom of priest that will be raised together on the last day. . all in the twinkling of the eye . The final ressurection or rapture .

 

[Phoneman-777]

I think its both those dead asleep and those reigning with Christ as a kingdom of priest that will be raised together on the last day. . all in the twinkling of the eye . The final ressurection or rapture .

I made a typo...I meant to say that these dead which arose when Jesus died ARE in heaven, but that this number does not include the whole of the sleeping saints, which will all come forth when Jesus calls to them at His Second Coming.

 

[garee]

I made a typo...I meant to say that these dead which arose when Jesus died ARE in heaven, but that this number does not include the whole of the sleeping saints, which will all come forth when Jesus calls to them at His Second Coming.

I would agree .To absent from the body is to be present dead asleep with those who were raised when Jesus said it is finished. On the last day under the sun those alive will be caught up with those awoken from the sleep and then all together the bride will receive the promise of their new incorruptible body.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I would agree .To absent from the body is to be present dead asleep with those who were raised when Jesus said it is finished. On the last day under the sun those alive will be caught up with those awoken from the sleep and then all together the bride will receive the promise of their new incorruptible body.

You can't be asleep and awake at the same time, just as you cannot be alive and dead at the same time. The purpose of the resurrection is to awaken and quicken the dead - but you guys want to claim it's only a "celestial fashion show" where we get to come down from heaven and put on immortal anthropomorphic clothing....no, it is when the Soul that has CEASED TO EXIST at death once again comes back into existence, either for all eternity at the First Resurrection, or for condemnation and execution in the Lake of Fire at the Second Resurrection.

A Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 KJV) and there is not a single verse to overthrow this one that you can appeal to that says the Soul continues to exist after the Breath departs back to God, while I have many verses that say the Soul DIES when this happens.

 

[Karraster]

I like your thread, interesting conversation. From my research it seems the word "soul" is an unfortunate translation that comes with lots of Greek baggage. Basically they define it as the essence of a person that is trapped in a body of flesh to be released at death. Not at all what the Hebrew says.

The meaning of the word "soul" in Hebrew is "nephesh". Both humans and animals are living nephesh. We don't "have" a nephesh we "are" a nephesh. The shema is to love Almighty with our nephesh and that is our whole physical being, our mind and body. Anyways, you probably already know this, but perhaps some readers do not.

Just one more thing, I can't understand how anyone who believes we serve a loving and just Creator would entertain the thought that He would torment a colossal number of people forever and ever with never an end to the torment, for, (even if it's a lifetime) of sin? A lifetime could be around a 100 years, whereas eternity has no end. That's not equal punishment. Anyone who can read ought to find in scripture a very just and merciful God. That's the God I read about in my bible. He warns us not to fall for the oldest lie in the book!

 

[GaryA]

I like your thread, interesting conversation.

Same here - sorta...

I agree with some parts of his view and disagree with some parts of his view.

Just one more thing, I can't understand how anyone who believes we serve a loving and just Creator would entertain the thought that He would torment a colossal number of people forever and ever with never an end to the torment, for, (even if it's a lifetime) of sin? A lifetime could be around a 100 years, whereas eternity has no end. That's not equal punishment. Anyone who can read ought to find in scripture a very just and merciful God. That's the God I read about in my bible. He warns us not to fall for the oldest lie in the book!

It is not about equal punishment - it is about just punishment.

 

[GaryA]

A Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 KJV) and there is not a single verse to overthrow this one that you can appeal to that says the Soul continues to exist after the Breath departs back to God, while I have many verses that say the Soul DIES when this happens.

If your intent of the use of the word 'Breath' with regard to "departs back to God" is based on Ecclesiastes 12:7 - then, are you not demonstrating that the 'soul' of man does indeed "live on" outside the body - as opposed to simply "going non-existent" from within the body at the time and place of death???

What exactly returns to God except the soul and spirit?

The 'soul' is the 'unique identity' of the person. The 'spirit' is the "life force" that gives 'life' to both the soul and the body.

I am not inclined to believe that the soul dies and goes out of existence - and, afterward - God creates a "new soul" for the old dead body of a person who no longer exists - and then judges the new soul and sends it to hell and the lake of fire...

Would God judge a "new soul" for the sins of another previously-existing-but-no-longer-existing soul that use to live in a body that is now dead?

I think not...

 

[Karraster]

Same here - sorta...

I agree with some parts of his view and disagree with some parts of his view.


It is not about equal punishment - it is about just punishment.

I doubt that any two of us agree 100%, and I'm positive that not one of us here has all the truth only God knows all things.

Isn't equal and just the same? Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, isn't that about not going beyond the punishment that is called for?

 

[GaryA]

..., while I have many verses that say the Soul DIES when this happens.

"Let's see 'em..."

 

[GaryA]

I doubt that any two of us agree 100%, and I'm positive that not one of us here has all the truth only God knows all things.

I agree.

Isn't equal and just the same? Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, isn't that about not going beyond the punishment that is called for?

Not when it comes to the righteousness of God.

Revelation 14:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The first part of verse 11 - which I have highlighted above - represents the "just equivalent" of 'worship' to God.

I know this passage is specifically referring to those who worship the beast; however, I believe that it applies to everyone with regard to eternity.

God has made it so that every soul (no exceptions) - whether they realize it or not, believe it or not, accept it or not - will 'worship' Him forever-and-ever.

They have a choice. They can 'worship' Him now out of their own will. Or, they will 'worship' Him in punishment forever.

In either case, it is forever.

This punishment is not for individual sins -- it is for not believing, accepting, trusting...

 

[Karraster]

I agree.


Not when it comes to the righteousness of God.

Revelation 14:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The first part of verse 11 - which I have highlighted above - represents the "just equivalent" of 'worship' to God.

I know this passage is specifically referring to those who worship the beast; however, I believe that it applies to everyone with regard to eternity.

God has made it so that every soul (no exceptions) - whether they realize it or not, believe it or not, accept it or not - will 'worship' Him forever-and-ever.

They have a choice. They can 'worship' Him now out of their own will. Or, they will 'worship' Him in punishment forever.

In either case, it is forever.

This punishment is not for individual sins -- it is for not believing, accepting, trusting...

Our God is a consuming fire. Those who refuse Him will have a second death. It's the consequences that is forever, they will be ashes.

 

[GaryA]

Our God is a consuming fire. Those who refuse Him will have a second death. It's the consequences that is forever, they will be ashes.

If you are suggesting that the consequence is becoming nonexistent - what kind of consequence is that???

That is not a consequence. That is a get-out-of-jail-free escape card!

The epitome of escaping justice.

How can there be any remorse?

 

[Karraster]

If you are suggesting that the consequence is becoming nonexistent - what kind of consequence is that???

That is not a consequence. That is a get-out-of-jail-free escape card!

The epitome of escaping justice.

How can there be any remorse?

I am scratching my head here. Being erased, bon journo, by bye, gone, no more.......that's not punishment?

Edit to say, remorse? who cares it's over, no more chances, what purpose would remorse serve? And remorse does serve a purpose, to repentance.

 

[GaryA]

I am scratching my head here. Being erased, bon journo, by bye, gone, no more.......that's not punishment?

How is it punishment?

Kill, torture, rape, rob, destroy other people's lives, etc. - and then go out of existence - no pain - no "having to pay for the evil that you did"...???

Edit to say, remorse? who cares it's over, no more chances, what purpose would remorse serve? And remorse does serve a purpose, to repentance.

I am thinking that remorse may also have a purpose as part of the 'torment' of the punishment.

 

[garee]

You can't be asleep and awake at the same time, just as you cannot be alive and dead at the same time. The purpose of the resurrection is to awaken and quicken the dead - but you guys want to claim it's only a "celestial fashion show" where we get to come down from heaven and put on immortal anthropomorphic clothing....no, it is when the Soul that has CEASED TO EXIST at death once again comes back into existence, either for all eternity at the First Resurrection, or for condemnation and execution in the Lake of Fire at the Second Resurrection.

A Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 KJV) and there is not a single verse to overthrow this one that you can appeal to that says the Soul continues to exist after the Breath departs back to God, while I have many verses that say the Soul DIES when this happens.

Born again believers receive a new born again soul that will never did.

Jesus defines the words he uses . First calling it dead. Lazarus 4 days one more than Jesus three days in the heart of the earth and then clarifying what kind .Dead asleep .Not dead never to rise to new life

 

[Phoneman-777]

I like your thread, interesting conversation. From my research it seems the word "soul" is an unfortunate translation that comes with lots of Greek baggage. Basically they define it as the essence of a person that is trapped in a body of flesh to be released at death. Not at all what the Hebrew says.

The meaning of the word "soul" in Hebrew is "nephesh". Both humans and animals are living nephesh. We don't "have" a nephesh we "are" a nephesh. The shema is to love Almighty with our nephesh and that is our whole physical being, our mind and body. Anyways, you probably already know this, but perhaps some readers do not.

Just one more thing, I can't understand how anyone who believes we serve a loving and just Creator would entertain the thought that He would torment a colossal number of people forever and ever with never an end to the torment, for, (even if it's a lifetime) of sin? A lifetime could be around a 100 years, whereas eternity has no end. That's not equal punishment. Anyone who can read ought to find in scripture a very just and merciful God. That's the God I read about in my bible. He warns us not to fall for the oldest lie in the book!

AMEN! Moses did not say in Genesis 2:7, "...and man was given a soul." He said, "...and man BECAME a living soul". There's simply no other way to understand this text than to say that a "soul" is the "whole person" comprised of the two components: Body and Breath of Life.

Today's Christians have unknowingly placed their faith in pagan Greek philosophers and Satan's agents in
Rome instead of the plain words of Scripture when it comes to the question of what happens when we die. Thanks, friend.

 

[Phoneman-777]

If your intent of the use of the word 'Breath' with regard to "departs back to God" is based on Ecclesiastes 12:7 - then, are you not demonstrating that the 'soul' of man does indeed "live on" outside the body - as opposed to simply "going non-existent" from within the body at the time and place of death???

Let's get one thing straight: Gary A can't "return" to God in heaven any more than Gary A can "return" to the moon - for the same exact reason: GARY A AIN'T NEVER BEEN TO EITHER PLACE.

It is the Spirit (Breath of Life) and the Spirit (Breath of Life) ALONE which returns to God at death, not the Soul which is Gary A. Gary A does not "have" a soul...Gary A IS a Soul as is Phoneman777 and everyone else, understand? We "Living Souls" don't go anywhere at death...because we Souls come into existence when the Spirit and Body join together and cease to exist when this union is broken.

If you are going to insist that the "Spirit" and the "Soul" are the same thing, then I have no choice but to drop more Biblical Truth Nukes

 

[Scribe]

Let's get one thing straight: Gary A can't "return" to God in heaven any more than Gary A can "return" to the moon - for the same exact reason: GARY A AIN'T NEVER BEEN TO EITHER PLACE.

It is the Spirit (Breath of Life) and the Spirit (Breath of Life) ALONE which returns to God at death, not the Soul which is Gary A. Gary A does not "have" a soul...Gary A IS a Soul as is Phoneman777 and everyone else, understand? We "Living Souls" don't go anywhere at death...because we Souls come into existence when the Spirit and Body join together and cease to exist when this union is broken.

If you are going to insist that the "Spirit" and the "Soul" are the same thing, then I have no choice but to drop more Biblical Truth Nukes

Phoneman.. y'all staying dry?