No one helplessly falls away from Christ - it's a choice

[throughfaith]

...but the fallen angels “believe”, so that statement you make needs more fleshing out so people are not seduced by false beliefs!-)

No I said a believer. God knows those who have believed.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Back 20 years ago, my RA was largely untreated. I had moved to a new province and couldn't find a church. I grew more and more depressed. I finally turned away from God!

But he did not turn away from me! The whole time, I knew he was there, just waiting for me to turn around. I sulked for 2 years. Then God told me to read 5 Psalms a day. I still resisted. But finally I started, and I found people just like me. In the Psalms. Some hurting, yet rejoicing, sinning but repenting. And I saw the sovereignty of God!

God gave me this verse:

"Why am I so depressed?
Why this turmoil within me?
Put your hope in God, for I will still praise Him,
my Savior and my God." Psalm 42:5 HCSB

I finally went running back into my Father's arms. He had me in a good church almost immediately, and called me to seminary. I've never turned away from God again.

I learned that God will never leave me or forsake me. Hebrews 13:5 I wish every Christian understood this. Arminianism is a lie, and it destroys faith and trust in God.

I trust God and his promises and I know for 40 years, He has kept me in the palm of his hand. I pray everyone will understand that God's love never fails!

I emphasise with you on having RA. My oldest daughter was diagnosed with it when she was just a child. Her knee swole up with an enormous amount of fluid, which had to be drained three different times in just a few weeks. Her doctor said that sometimes young RA patience will go into remission in their puberty, in which she did, but at the age of 50 it came back with a fury. She takes drip infusions quite often, and has developed many other ailments, such as diabetes, lupus, etc. She avoids crowds a lot, especially sense the COVD started.

I wish you well in your christian journey.

 

[throughfaith]

...but the fallen angels “believe”, so that statement you make needs more fleshing out so people are not seduced by false beliefs!-)

Jesus did not die for fallen angels .

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Of course I am.The context I was referring to was about those who are not Christian and most certainly don't categorize themselves as being Christian at all but of a totally different religion like Muslim,hindu,Sikh ect..

I call your attention to post# 60.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jesus had not died on the cross , dying for the sins of the world . The resurrection had not happened either. The Holy Spirit had not been given either .

Are you familiar with Isaiah 63:11? All regenerated children of God are born spiritually with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, from the beginning of time until the end of time.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ezek 18v24: ""But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die."

Many times in the scriptures, when the wicked is mentioned, it has reference to regenerated children of God. Ezek 18:24 is one of those times. This death (greek=separation) is not physical, but a temporary separation from his fellowship with God, until he repents.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Many sincere Christians believe this. But this isn't what I see in the Bible. It's true that as long as one makes the choice, prayerfully, to remain in Christ - they are safe and are kept from falling away. But there's evidence that not all new converts do remain faithful to Him and there's evidence that some do fall away. Look at a list of verses on the subject of how some fall away and how the scriptures warn believers from falling away (there is no longer danger of it happening to those who have been proven through hardships, and have become solidly fully surrendered to God, though):

https://www.openbible.info/topics/falling_away

All born again christians, at times, will fall away by their lust of the things of this world, When they fall away, they die, not a physical death (Greek=separation) but a separation, temporary, from fellowship with God, until they repent.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ezekiel is to Israel , and its about physical death .

Death (Greek=separation). These mentioned in Ezek 18:24 are regenerated children of God and are separated from their fellowship with God, until they repent. It is not about physical death.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Many sincere Christians explain it as you do. But they fail to see that although we are saved by God's grace - His grace is not available to those who do not sincerely accept His lordship over their lives. It helps to study all that the scriptures say on the subject of the way of salvation and of how to keep it, and to compare them, without nullifying the truth of either aspect. While Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world - it is only those who sincerely repent, who can be recipients of salvation through His grace. They need to initially repent in their hearts, and have the desire to change for the better. On that basis, if that is true of them, and they accept Jesus as Lord (God) and Savior of their life - they are saved. But to keep saved, one needs to prayerfully remain in their relationship with God, and to not willfully drift away from it.


There are numerous warnings against falling away from Christ, throughout the New Testament. So it's clear there are ways to prevent it from happening. See a long list of verses on the subject:
https://www.openbible.info/topics/falling_away

The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that they can not discern, and thinks it to be foolishness. Your long list has reference to regenerated children of God who have fallen away, as all of us do, at times, and we lose our fellowship with God, temporary, until we repent.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The heart of man is deceitfully wicked and yours is deceiving you in thinking you play a role in your salvation, this is the false pride we all are challenged by same as satan in wanting to be Hod and Eve in thinking when God gave to her everything but the fruit of the tree? That she was being held back on and missing out on something....she had been given the entire world to do with as she pleased. If we are God’s children? We will want to please him and yet, the old nature is still within us and so we fail. Continually drop the ball as it were? And sin, this is why Christ gave himself up on the cross for us to buy us from out of our sin despite our desire to kick at him even....before “He” changed our hearts and put the ability within us to want to place him as head over our lives. Yes, we have a responsibility in behaving properly but it is false pride to think you had any part to play whatsoever in your salvation when he tells us by his own lips that the faith to believe is a gift, so that no man may boast of his own doing. I you are not humbled enough to see that? Then the scales of a works form of religion are still upon your eyes as Saul on the road headed to persecute christians.....

Good words of explanation.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Do you really think someone or thing can take away from God, what he has marked as his? All the warnings are to the falsely seduced into thinking they are saved in the 1st place. In theory a young christian could be loured away through going places they shouldn’t? But then you bring in the the idea that a child of God could be taken away from him....that is utter foolishness & a complete lack of understanding of the power of God and his control over everything, nothing happens without his oking it in the 1st place.

I'll amen that!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Wasn't one of jesus temptations to with satan temping him to jump off of the temple believing he would be fine as satan quote scripture to him saying "God will commend his angels to help you,and their hands will catch you,so that you will not hit your foot on a rock"
Yet jesus replied back saying "You must not test the lord your God"..
So even from this account we see that we do have a degree of spiritual responsibility not be presumptuous about Gods word though it is packs with many truths concerning the security of our salvation.
Unfortunately some Christians have even committed suicide as a result of depression,feeling trapped in various situations ect....there have been numerous debates about weither or not if a Christian commits suicide what is the status of their salvation having "murdered themselves"..and many of these individuals are Christian's who had been genuinly saved yet something terrible happened in their lives.
Point is..There is an element of responsibility that we have within the framework of our salvation and the choices we make does have an impact on our lives and to just presume that because scripture says certain things pertaining to our salvation one can be recklessly and irresponsible with ones life isnt what the scriptures also teach.

Christ died to pay for "ALL" of the sins of those that his Father gave him.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Where have I said we can do what we want ? Consequences? what fruit did you have from sins before you were saved ? consequences are still in place, such as divorce, Jail , loss of family , loss of life , misery , pain, debt ect . A Christian is not immune to sin s effects . He is just never to be separated from God .

You have correct thinking on a lot of the scriptures, such as OSAS, it is a shame that you have been indoctrinated against some of the other truths. May you prosper in your studies.

 

[throughfaith]

Are you familiar with Isaiah 63:11? All regenerated children of God are born spiritually with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, from the beginning of time until the end of time.

Not so . Only by the Resurrection of Jesus is anyone born again . 1 peter
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[throughfaith]

Death (Greek=separation). These mentioned in Ezek 18:24 are regenerated children of God and are separated from their fellowship with God, until they repent. It is not about physical death.

John 7 .39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[Angela53510]

Many sincere Christians believe this. But this isn't what I see in the Bible. It's true that as long as one makes the choice, prayerfully, to remain in Christ - they are safe and are kept from falling away. But there's evidence that not all new converts do remain faithful to Him and there's evidence that some do fall away. Look at a list of verses on the subject of how some fall away and how the scriptures warn believers from falling away (there is no longer danger of it happening to those who have been proven through hardships, and have become solidly fully surrendered to God, though):

https://www.openbible.info/topics/falling_away

Putting up a general search really is not acceptable! Next time, pull out some of those verses, in context, not cherry picked, and explain why they support your beliefs. Of course, you can continue being lazy, and posting links like this, but be assured, few will click on the link, because you have not even had the courtesy to give an explanation for what you believe the verse says!

Plus, these searches are one sided. And 1 verse doesn't begin to look at the whole meaning of the passage. A good example is Psalms 14:1

"There is no God"

I looked up this phrase, and it is all over Scripture. But each time, when I looked and the verses before and after, in the chapter, in context to the people being written to, and the time, I find this phrase is qualified.

"The fool says in his heart,
'There is no God.'
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good." Psslm 14:1

In context, that phrase was NOT saying there is no God, instead, the verse is saying that this is what fools say, and also disbelievers in God are corrupt, vile, and do no good.

I could give you 10 more examples, suffice it to say, your hermeneutics is faulty, when you post a link to a topic without explain the verse in context

Moving on to my main point, God clearly states that those who fall away never really were on of the elect. (If you don't believe in the elect, that's too bad, because the Bible uses that term to describe believers!)

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:18-19

Here John refers to these people first as antichrists, and when they left the church, it was because they were never saved in the first place!

If someone belongs to Christ they will not slip away! Either we belong to Christ, and we are believers, or we don't belong to Christ, and we never belonged to Christ. None of this "once a Christian. If you don't pull yourself up by the boot straps, then you have failed." That is the definition of a works gospel!

In fact, since God saved us, totally, if we fall away, God has sinned by allowing us to walk away! Of course, no one will ever admit that, but it basically comes down to God saving us, and not being powerful enough to hold onto us. That is not the God I serve, I serve the sovereign God of the universe! (No, I don't believe in free will when it comes to salvation! We cannot make the choice, as dead people to save ourselves. We do not have the power to save ourselves, and we certainly do not have the inclination!)

Here is a basic passage, explaining what happens when God saves us!

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Eph. 1:3-14

"And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—" Romans 9:10-11

There are many other verses that could be used to show you your soteriology is wrong, but I'll leave it as this for now!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not sure if this has been addressed

but the israel that walked in the wilderness for 40 years were never true believers, they never fell away, they never bought in

we know this by the fact every time a trial came, they showed they had no faith in God, even desiring to go back to Egypt here their true faith lie

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you yoye saying that it's not possible to backslide as a Christian?
I have known Christian's who have move over to Islam even gone back to their family religion..Naturally who knows how their life till turn out for they could well return having had their eyes opened

Where they ever truly christian?

you go to where your true faith is, someone who goes back to law, their true faith was in law. If they truly trusted in Christ, they would not even think of trying to go back to law and walking away.

paul warns of this in most of his letters

 

[eternally-gratefull]

' Backslide ' implies your climbing . Salvation is not ' climbing ' . That would be a works salvation.

Depends on context. I fell away as a prodigal son for 5 years, but I never stopped being the son

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes that's right of course that's possible and there are varying degrees in which such things happen in a belivers life.The scripture is full of many truths concerning the security we have in christ..yet in the other element the scriptures also addresses the ability to make decisions and choices too within the dynamic of salvation which is Gods gift to us.Philipians 2:12 Paul encourages us to work our out salvation ect...not to work for if as it is God free gift to us..but to work it out.There are countless verbs throughout the new testament instructing us how to be.Obviously we are under grace not law and its within these parameters that a person can for some reason turn away from the lord for whatever reason and as I mentioned previously I am sure many come back to a place in God.
There is nothing wrong with the various terms use to describe a person who turns away for the lord..hosea 14:4 mentions thr term backsliding..other says "turn away",or "forsake"...Plus I wasnt even suggesting a person could loose their salvation yet some will be deceived into think they are right with him...but he never knew them Matt 7:22...plus jesus said its this who do his fathers will will enter into heaven.

Paul is telling is to work out the salvation we have as a miner works out miners in the ground, to make it usefull, otherwise it has no life and we do not reap the rewards here on earth,