The Pre-Trib Rapture - a PRIZE for only a few
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OK. Thanks brother for your answer. I have read it and noted it. I think my posts are motivated by the same motive as the rest of the Christians on this Forum. They take their opportunity to swap ideas. And if two posters differ in understanding, they have to bring their arguments. By all accounts then, an argument ensues. It is commanded that we "contend for THE faith" (Jude 1:3). This Forum is a platform to do so with courtesy but without bloodshed.
Sure, ONE of the verses I may have selected pertained to His death, but surely not all of the ones I selected referred to that...
I would think the question could be more centered on His statement, "I GO to prepare A PLACE..." (which I am not saying is a particular LOCATION as much as a POSITION, and being distinct from the phrase spoken to another/distinct group "HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you *FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" [not "*BEFORE [pro]" spoken of others elsewhere!]).
Consider:
John 13:1 - "Now before the feast of the Passover, Jesus, knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved the own who were in the world, He loved them to the end."
John 13:3 - "Jesus knowing that all things the Father hath given to him -- into his hands, and that from God he came forth, and unto God he goeth,"
[that's ^ said in John 13... He didn't suddenly "forget" by the time John 14 rolled around
]
John 16:28 - "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father."
[and said earlier...]
John 8:14 - "Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I am bearing witness concerning Myself, My testimony is true, because I know from where I came and where I am going. But you do not know from where I come or where I am going."
John 8:42 - "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for not even have I come of Myself, but He sent Me."
John 17:8 - "For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me."
John 17:11a - "And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You."
John 17:13 - "But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them."
[those ^ verses talk about where He was presently getting ready to "GO" / "GO AWAY" to]
THIS verse [below], does not refer to that, though:
John 17:24 - "Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where ['in whatever spot'] I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before [pro] the foundation of the world."
IOW, Jesus would not be thereafter LIMITING Himself to "HEAVEN" alone, but "IN WHATEVER SPOT I am"... for example: "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." - Acts 3:21
[further] Ex. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those having fallen asleep." ~ "the Lord Himself SHALL DESCEND..." ~ "caught away together with them in the clouds, to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR..." ~ "when He shall RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [G347], i.e. the earthly MK age... so you can see He's not to be limited to one sphere alone (Heaven) just because He was going to go there after the Cross ... but He was indeed going there after the Cross.
Then we have Eph1:10, which is not speaking of "in this present age," but of "the fulness of the times" (yet future)... "for the administration of the fullness of the times, to bring together [G346 - 'properly, head-up, summing up all the parts as a comprehensive (organized) whole'] all things in Christ--the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth"... that is, the glory of God in two spheres...
[I hope this has somewhat covered the few posts of yours that were responses to mine... and I did endeavor to cut down on the "explanatory parentheses" and so forth ... my apologies for that... it's just that I find the need to explain terms that are often "automatically assumed" to mean something else, when they do not... like the very common thought that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is located UP IN Heaven, when it is actually referring to the EARTHLY MK age, or at least its "inauguration"--but without "explaining" that in my comments, just saying "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" by itself, people conjure up an "idea" that I myself have NOT intended to convey]
I would think the question could be more centered on His statement, "I GO to prepare A PLACE..." (which I am not saying is a particular LOCATION as much as a POSITION, and being distinct from the phrase spoken to another/distinct group "HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you *FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" [not "*BEFORE [pro]" spoken of others elsewhere!]).
Consider:
John 13:1 - "Now before the feast of the Passover, Jesus, knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved the own who were in the world, He loved them to the end."
John 13:3 - "Jesus knowing that all things the Father hath given to him -- into his hands, and that from God he came forth, and unto God he goeth,"
[that's ^ said in John 13... He didn't suddenly "forget" by the time John 14 rolled around
]John 16:28 - "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father."
[and said earlier...]
John 8:14 - "Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I am bearing witness concerning Myself, My testimony is true, because I know from where I came and where I am going. But you do not know from where I come or where I am going."
John 8:42 - "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for not even have I come of Myself, but He sent Me."
John 17:8 - "For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me."
John 17:11a - "And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You."
John 17:13 - "But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them."
[those ^ verses talk about where He was presently getting ready to "GO" / "GO AWAY" to]
THIS verse [below], does not refer to that, though:
John 17:24 - "Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where ['in whatever spot'] I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before [pro] the foundation of the world."
IOW, Jesus would not be thereafter LIMITING Himself to "HEAVEN" alone, but "IN WHATEVER SPOT I am"... for example: "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." - Acts 3:21
[further] Ex. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those having fallen asleep." ~ "the Lord Himself SHALL DESCEND..." ~ "caught away together with them in the clouds, to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR..." ~ "when He shall RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [G347], i.e. the earthly MK age... so you can see He's not to be limited to one sphere alone (Heaven) just because He was going to go there after the Cross
... but He was indeed going there after the Cross.Then we have Eph1:10, which is not speaking of "in this present age," but of "the fulness of the times" (yet future)... "for the administration of the fullness of the times, to bring together [G346 - 'properly, head-up, summing up all the parts as a comprehensive (organized) whole'] all things in Christ--the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth"... that is, the glory of God in two spheres...
[I hope this has somewhat covered the few posts of yours that were responses to mine... and I did endeavor to cut down on the "explanatory parentheses" and so forth
... my apologies for that... it's just that I find the need to explain terms that are often "automatically assumed" to mean something else, when they do not... like the very common thought that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is located UP IN Heaven, when it is actually referring to the EARTHLY MK age, or at least its "inauguration"--but without "explaining" that in my comments, just saying "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" by itself, people conjure up an "idea" that I myself have NOT intended to convey]
And yes, your scriptures do reflect our Lord Jesus returning to the Father in heaven. My only comment, so as not to divert the thread, is that in John 13 and 14 our Lord tells of the destination - the Father's House. And He confirms this by saying that He was already there, and that after He had prepared the PLACE, He would return so that His disciples would ALSO be there. Just this alone tells that John 14 concerns the EARTH. He was on earth when He said where "I am", He was on earth when He said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", and He promised to return. If heaven was the destination, He would not return.
As to His return, have you considered this concerning the Wedding Feast? The leading Parable on this is Matthew 25:1-13. In verse 5: "While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept." In verse 6: "And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him." The Lord's delay caused ended in their death, as it has in in the case of millions of Christians through the last 1,950 years. Then, the cry goes out; "... the Bridegroom COMETH ...". So initially He COMES. Where was He? In heaven of course (Eph.4:10). So if He COMES He has left heaven. But at the same time, the Virgins "ROSE" to go and "MEET HIM". Now, we know from 1st Thessalonians 4:15-18 that Immediately after the dead Christians RISE, they are "caught up to the AIR - the CLOUDS. If Christ has left heaven but in the air where clouds are, the Virgins meet Him there. But then, which direction do they go? Well, Christ does not return to heaven but bursts forth from the clouds to fight Armageddon.
The foolish Virgins had to go and buy oil "from them that sell". Now, the wise Virgins bought that oil in their lifetimes. And their lifetimes were ON EARTH. Then, when the foolish Virgins have paid the price for extra oil, they return to the Wedding Feast only to be refused entry. For them to go to heaven after they bought oil on earth, would mean a second Rapture. But this is not only not mentioned in the whole Bible, but 1st Thessalonians 4:17 says; "... and so shall we ever be with the Lord". There can be no second Rapture. This leaves only one possibility. The Wedding Feast is ON EARTH - the place of those who sold oil to the wise Virgins. And this all then is in harmony with the fact that the Parable of the Virgins "is LIKE the Kingdom"! And the Millennial Kingdom is ON EARTH.
Just thinking.
^ @Corban , the "10 Virgins [plural]" parable is concerning "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [i.e. the EARTHLY MK age and their entrance into THAT]... the "10 Virgins [plural]" (or even the 5) are NOT whom He is coming to MARRY... IOW, it is not concerning "the MARRIAGE" itself, which pertains to "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... they are two distinct things.
The "arose" concerning the "10 Virgins [PLURAL]" is not referring to "the DEAD IN Christ" (those of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY who have DIED prior to that point).
The "10 Virgins [plural]" will not have lifted off the earth at the point He "comes" in that Matt25 context (not even the 5, who, in the end, "went in with [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [/earthly MK age]"--a distinct "WITH" word from the one used in 1Th4:15-17, etc [G4862], which by contrast means "IN UNION-with / IDENTIFICATION-with"<--this is NOT said of the "10 [or 5] Virgins [plural], esp.v.10 of Matt25, see.) Do you see what I mean?
IOW, Rev19:7 re "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" (re: "the MARRIAGE" itself) is DISTINCT FROM Rev19:9 "those [plural] having been called/invited to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" (which pertains to the EARTHLY MK age, "the guests [plural]," and also pertaining to the "10/5 Virgins [plural]" as well as the "servants [plural]" of that specific, future, limited time period FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age [/the wedding FEAST/SUPPER].
"Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]), and ONLY takes place at ONE POINT in the chronology... NOT more than once. It has already taken place BEFORE the first SEAL is shown to be being opened Rev5-6:2 (which is opened at the START of the trib yrs).
There is no more "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" after that point... that happened way back prior to the START of the trib years (i.e. PRE-trib). The "10 Virgins [plural]" (not to mention "the guests [plural]") NEVER LIFT OFF THE EARTH, but are present on the earth upon His "RETURN" there (see esp. Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"]... THEN the meal [G347].) There are a multitude of verses from the Gospels that speak of THIS point in time (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age... where the [still-alive] "saints" at that time NEVER LIFT OFF THE EARTH [the Sheep of the Sheep and goats separation/judgment, for another example... the Wheat of the wheat and tares separation/judgment ('My barn' = earthly MK age)... etc, etc])
The "arose" concerning the "10 Virgins [PLURAL]" is not referring to "the DEAD IN Christ" (those of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY who have DIED prior to that point).
The "10 Virgins [plural]" will not have lifted off the earth at the point He "comes" in that Matt25 context (not even the 5, who, in the end, "went in with [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [/earthly MK age]"--a distinct "WITH" word from the one used in 1Th4:15-17, etc [G4862], which by contrast means "IN UNION-with / IDENTIFICATION-with"<--this is NOT said of the "10 [or 5] Virgins [plural], esp.v.10 of Matt25, see.) Do you see what I mean?
IOW, Rev19:7 re "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" (re: "the MARRIAGE" itself) is DISTINCT FROM Rev19:9 "those [plural] having been called/invited to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" (which pertains to the EARTHLY MK age, "the guests [plural]," and also pertaining to the "10/5 Virgins [plural]" as well as the "servants [plural]" of that specific, future, limited time period FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age [/the wedding FEAST/SUPPER].
"Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]), and ONLY takes place at ONE POINT in the chronology... NOT more than once. It has already taken place BEFORE the first SEAL is shown to be being opened Rev5-6:2 (which is opened at the START of the trib yrs).
There is no more "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" after that point... that happened way back prior to the START of the trib years (i.e. PRE-trib). The "10 Virgins [plural]" (not to mention "the guests [plural]") NEVER LIFT OFF THE EARTH, but are present on the earth upon His "RETURN" there (see esp. Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"]... THEN the meal [G347].) There are a multitude of verses from the Gospels that speak of THIS point in time (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age... where the [still-alive] "saints" at that time NEVER LIFT OFF THE EARTH [the Sheep of the Sheep and goats separation/judgment, for another example... the Wheat of the wheat and tares separation/judgment ('My barn' = earthly MK age)... etc, etc])
I know that you accord me a certain understanding of things, but your parenthesis are beyond me. I have an idea what you are saying, but if I answer, I'm bound to misread a point because I have to fathom what you mean and that could be a mistake. I'm not on your head. Shall be both just leave what we have said and agree that we differ in understanding? Thanks, an go well brother.
We agree. "The Wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is indeed ON THE EARTH... it IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the EARTH. Yes.
We seem to be in agreement on this point ^ .
[this is NOT pertaining to "our Rapture" and its timing... as they are distinct items... The "10 Virgins" R NOT US. ]
We seem to be in agreement on this point ^ .
[this is NOT pertaining to "our Rapture" and its timing... as they are distinct items... The "10 Virgins" R NOT US.
]
We agree. "The Wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is indeed ON THE EARTH... it IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the EARTH. Yes.
We seem to be in agreement on this point ^ .
[this is NOT pertaining to "our Rapture" and its timing... as they are distinct items... The "10 Virgins" R NOT US. ]
We seem to be in agreement on this point ^ .
[this is NOT pertaining to "our Rapture" and its timing... as they are distinct items... The "10 Virgins" R NOT US.
]
Take care bro.
Thanks for your observations. They are a good contribution. What then do you think of Revelation 7 and 12? In Chapter 7 it clearly states that this multitude attached to Jesus passed through the Great Tribulation (v.14). In Chapter 12 the Dragon hates the Woman. She brings forth THREE seeds; (i) The Man-Child, (ii) those "who keep the commandments of God", and (iii) those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". The Dragon tries to cause a still-birth of the Man-Child but fails. He then attacks the "Remainder of her seed". They "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" flee to a wilderness for the Great Tribulation where they are "helped" - not by God, but by the earth.
It seems to me that a "bulk passing through" is a distinct possibility.
It seems to me that a "bulk passing through" is a distinct possibility.
In Daniel 9, the period from the Beast confirming (or strengthening) the Covenant with Israel is three and one half years. From his breaking of it by stopping the daily oblation and setting up the Abomination of Desolation until he is defeated is three and one half years. Matthew 24 says that the Tribulation starts when those in Judea see the Abomination of Desolation. Therefore, the Great Tribulation is three and one half years, or 42 months, or 1260 days, or " a time, times and half a time".
Further, 1st Thessalonians 5:3 says; "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape". It seems to me that the period leading up to "destruction" - that is, the first three and a half years, will be one of peace - not the killing of saints.
Further, 1st Thessalonians 5:3 says; "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape". It seems to me that the period leading up to "destruction" - that is, the first three and a half years, will be one of peace - not the killing of saints.