Have You Received the Holy Ghost Since You Believed?

[mailmandan]

If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever - John 14:15

Keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for the Lord, but is not the basis or means by which we receive the Holy Spirit and obtain eternal life. When Jesus spoke these words, the Holy Spirit was not yet given. John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

"If any one loves me," replied Jesus, "he will obey my teaching; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. - John 14:23

Descriptive of believers. Unbelievers do not obey His teaching. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

If Abraham was indeed justified by works (of the law), he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God. (Faith)

You "added" the words (of the law) in order to limit Paul's statement merely to specific works, which is eisegesis, plus Abraham was before the law of Moses.

Nehemiah 9:13 - “Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 “So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.

Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

How did Abraham believe God?
By keeping His commands, by doing what God said to do.
By putting his faith in God by doing it.

That's false. Abraham believed God when He brought Abraham outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” That's faith and it was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. Obeying God's commands afterwards is works. You seem to have a difficult time making that distinction. So believing is faith and obedience which "follows" is works.

Was it the law, NO the law was not even given until later.

Exactly! So works in Romans 4:5:6 is talking about works in general and Abraham was clearly NOT justified *accounted as righteous" by works and neither are we. (Romans 4:2-6)

Still he obeyed and did the works he was told to do with the Gift of the Child he was given.

He trusted it all to Gods lordship over his life and expected he would even raise the child from the dead in order to keep his promises.

Regardless of the works Abraham did, he was still NOT saved by works, but by faith.

This is Faith, Faith in the promise of God in his obedience. The faith of Abraham the father of all who have faith in God and trust in Him and do as he commands.

Faith is trusting in God and obeying His commands afterwards is works. You seem to wrap up both faith and works in a package and simply stamp faith on the package, not making a distinction between faith and works.

Not to earn approval or be good enough to be counted Righteous by your own efforts.
The works of Faith is simply obeying God because you trust in him and love him.
That is what make Jesus your Lord and if Lord also Savior because you belong to Him.
But the scripture says why call me Lord Lord and not do what i say, because if you dont obey his command (works) done in faith you are not His. The quality of your works plays not part in your being his only the faith of of them.
Abraham believed God would raise up His son from the dead to keep his promises
But if he failed to do the works of that faith he would never been declared righteous afterwards.
He diden want to earn Gods approval or thought he had to stack the wood for the fire just right or hold the knife just so or whatever quality of personal effort to be right and acceptable sacrifice to God as if that made him good enough for God to raise his son from the dead, that would be works according to the law or works for righteousness sake.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

why you work is what matters. to earn approval or because you love.
if you reject the works of faith, you are an unbeliever.

Works are done out of faith and love for the Lord and not to earn salvation. Those who trust in works for salvation instead of in Christ alone are unbelievers. (Matthew 7:21-23)

How else is it that baptism saves?

We are not saved by the work of water baptism, but through faith in Christ.

Because it is the first work of faith people are called to much like Abraham was called to sacrifice his Son we are called to a physical work or action for our faith to be alive and be saved in hope assured because of who we have put our faith in when we obey.

Abraham was saved/justified/accounted as righteous when he believed God in Genesis 15 (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) many years before he offered up his son Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Man is saved when he believes in Him/believes in the Lord Jesus Christ prior to receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) So man is saved the moment that he places his faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not by works. (Ephesians 2;8,9)

 

[Guojing]

Do you think Paul was the last apostle?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

If one of the necessary criteria is seeing the risen Christ Jesus, then, yes, by 1 Cor 15

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Would I be correct to assume that you don't think those kinds of things don't happen anymore?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

oops. just realized I used double negatives. it would make more sense if I only used one "don't". Sorry all.

 

[Lion222]

Keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for the Lord, but is not the basis or means by which we receive the Holy Spirit and obtain eternal life. When Jesus spoke these words, the Holy Spirit was not yet given. John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Seriously you reject those scriptures as authoritative because Jesus spoke them before He ascended?
Or to you reject them because they speak of the works of faith directly as a function of obedience out of love resulting in salvation which is fellowship with God through the receiving of Holy Spirit? Or do you think you are saved in some other way apart from what Jesus describes here as you works of obedience out of love for Christ causing God to come to you and you receiving the Holy Spirit?

You "added" the words (of the law) in order to limit Paul's statement merely to specific works

I added nothing you just removed from your understand the context of Paul speaking of the works of law everywhere.
Anyone can see when Paul said Grace through faith not by the works the entire surrounding context he is talking of the works of the law which is about an acceptableness of your works, a faith in yourself.
While the works of faith have nothing to do with the acceptability of our own efforts to obey but rather who you are believing in when you obey.
One is a work of trusting in yourself.
The other is a work of trusting in Gods promises.

Faith is an action word.
Faith without works is useless.
Faith without works is dead.
Faith without works saves no one.

O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is unprofitable/worthless (gets you nothing)? Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was completed/perfected by what he did.
without works faith is incomplete.
Can an incomplete faith save you?

Come on smell the coffee.
You are going to end up neglecting such a great salvation if you dont.
Our faith is what causes us to put ourselves under His lordship.
Becoming His in the process.

If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord (an action/work)
if you believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead (not an action/work)
By which are you saved the believing or the acting?
When we place ourselves under Jesus lordship by our obedience to the faith we are saved.
Not just lip service but a work of obedience to love in the confession of faith.
Just like baptism saves as work of obedience in the confession of faith.

to bring about the obedience of faith - Ro 5:1 Ro 16:26

“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of the One who holds the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation for being alive, yet you are dead. 2 Wake up and strengthen what remains, which was about to die; for I have found your works/deeds incomplete in the sight of My God. 3Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you.

 

[notuptome]

We are not discussing the receiving of the Holy Spirit but a supposed second blessing consistent with the modern doctrine of tongues. Any believer who has been born again and thereby converted knows with absolute certainty that they received the Holy Spirit the moment they trusted Christ to save them from their sins. This is evidenced throughout the NT.

Judas walked with Jesus, ate with Jesus and heard Jesus speak daily yet he never trusted Christ as Messiah. Others heard the message in the NT and even went about parroting the message yet never received Christ as their Savior.

It appears that many people know the lingo but lack a true saving knowledge of Christ. Judas was apostate and would not trust Christ so it should not be surprising that we have many in the church today who talk Christian but in their hearts they deny Christ and Jesus will send them into condemnation though they protest all that they have done. Judas went out with the other disciples when Christ sent them out with power to cast out demons and such yet he rejected Christ and joined with the Pharisees.

Just something to ponder.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry, I did not mean to come across as arrogant. When i said "in good faith" i actually meant "honestly and with my guard down".


I realize that tongues means languages and "tongues" doesn't easily clarify what type of language or use of language is being referred to. The only way I know to clarify that is to temporarily use other descriptors. That might require us to agree to a list of new terms to describe each. I haven't found a simple way to do that but would be willing to create a short list for you to add to (or do same for a list you provide).

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

You asked about acts 2 and acts 10. What kind of tongues were spoken?

 

[KelbyofGod]

The 12 original apostles were all in the NT writings and all had to wait (tarry, abide, continue, endure, overcome) until after Jesus departed to his father before they could receive the Holy Ghost (because the Comforter wasn't poured out until that happened). Their receiving of the Holy Ghost had little to do with the timing of their belief and more to do with the timing of God. And one of them (Judas Iscariot) decided not to wait (tarry, abide, continue, endure, overcome) for that long.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The 12 original apostles were all in the NT writings and all had to wait (tarry, abide, continue, endure, overcome) until after Jesus departed to his father before they could receive the Holy Ghost (because the Comforter wasn't poured out until that happened). Their receiving of the Holy Ghost had little to do with the timing of their belief and more to do with the timing of God. And one of them (Judas Iscariot) decided not to wait (tarry, abide, continue, endure, overcome) for that long.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

No one recieved the spirit until that time

after that time everyone who was saved by faith recieved the spirit at that moment.

 

[KelbyofGod]

You asked about acts 2 and acts 10. What kind of tongues were spoken?

Ball is still in your court on this one. You proposed that there is only one kind, and it is only given to some (by definition). You haven't justified your position..

So you still need to explain why God gave it to ALL and why he would particularly choose THAT gift to give to ALL (If it's not the basic manifestation one receives when receiving the Holy Ghost, which I say it is, and which is what makes it an indicator of when someone receives the Holy Ghost as they used it in Acts 10). And weren't there like 120 on the day of Pentecost who ALL began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance?

BTW, my question in Acts 2 was limited to verses 1-4 at the moment of outpouring, BEFORE the multitude came together. The point at which it was only the believers who were gathered together and in one accord. My thought is: if a doctrine doesn't survive the first moment, it is unfit to be applied to the rest of the story.

And quite honestly, I do appreciate your willingness to actually explore this with me.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

No one recieved the spirit until that time

after that time everyone who was saved by faith recieved the spirit at that moment.

That's what most people say. But Acts 8 and Acts 19 prove otherwise. Please read them again looking for the moment it says they believed(or received the word of God), and then the moment of receiving the Holy Ghost. They are NOT at the same moment.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ball is still in your court on this one. You proposed that there is only one kind, and it is only given to some (by definition). You haven't justified your position..

So you still need to explain why God gave it to ALL and why he would particularly choose THAT gift to give to ALL (If it's not the basic manifestation one receives when receiving the Holy Ghost, which I say it is, and which is what makes it an indicator of when someone receives the Holy Ghost as they used it in Acts 10). And weren't there like 120 on the day of Pentecost who ALL began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance?

BTW, my question in Acts 2 was limited to verses 1-4 at the moment of outpouring, BEFORE the multitude came together. The point at which it was only the believers who were gathered together and in one accord. My thought is: if a doctrine doesn't survive the first moment, it is unfit to be applied to the rest of the story.

And quite honestly, I do appreciate your willingness to actually explore this with me.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Lol

EPH 1 13-14. The spirit is given as a seal to all who hear the word and have faith

Look to the law and the priesthood it symbolizes what happens to us as a kingdom of priests. The gyving if the HS is represented by the oil being poured on

The baptism of the spirit is represented by the washing and the sacrifice

It’s actually quite Simple but as you said one has to open up

 

[KelbyofGod]

Lol

EPH 1 13-14. The spirit is given as a seal to all who hear the word and have faith

Look to the law and the priesthood it symbolizes what happens to us as a kingdom of priests. The gyving if the HS is represented by the oil being poured on

The baptism of the spirit is represented by the washing and the sacrifice

It’s actually quite Simple but as you said one has to open up

I'm not sure what you thought was funny.

If you thought I was dodging the question of "what kind of tongues do I think were present in Acts 2 and 10" for lack of ability to explain, that would be incorrect. I did so because I felt you were trying to avoid answering clearly... which is how I still feel because I don't see how "The spirit is given as a seal to all who hear the word and have faith..." is any kind of answer to the question "What kind of tongues was given in Acts 2:1-4?" or to the question "Why did EVERY ONE OF THEM start speaking in tongues if (by definition) speaking in tongues is only given to some?"

Personally I'd ask for one or more of the following solutions
1) You could fill me in on what you thought humorous, if it wasn't my avoiding your answering of a question with a question (already explained)
2) You could try explaining your viewpoint more clearly so that I can see how it explains why ALL started speaking in tongues.
3) You can ask me again to explain the types of tongues present in Acts 2 and 10. (This time I will answer without dodging, although I'll assume YOU are dodging if you've decided against #2)
4) Or you could requote my questions posed to you, and ask me to answer them. (So I can share understanding with the room)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not sure what you thought was funny.

If you thought I was dodging the question of "what kind of tongues do I think were present in Acts 2 and 10" for lack of ability to explain, that would be incorrect. I did so because I felt you were trying to avoid answering clearly... which is how I still feel because I don't see how "The spirit is given as a seal to all who hear the word and have faith..." is any kind of answer to the question "What kind of tongues was given in Acts 2:1-4?" or to the question "Why did EVERY ONE OF THEM start speaking in tongues if (by definition) speaking in tongues is only given to some?"

Personally I'd ask for one or more of the following solutions
1) You could fill me in on what you thought humorous, if it wasn't my avoiding your answering of a question with a question (already explained)
2) You could try explaining your viewpoint more clearly so that I can see how it explains why ALL started speaking in tongues.
3) You can ask me again to explain the types of tongues present in Acts 2 and 10. (This time I will answer without dodging, although I'll assume YOU are dodging if you've decided against #2)
4) Or you could requote my questions posed to you, and ask me to answer them. (So I can share understanding with the room)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I can see as usual this is a waste of time

Go on believing as you wish. You can’t even get the baptism of the spirit right. You think I am going to trust you on anything else?

 

[Lion222]

I love your post Kelby. and that is not something I say lately. I'm not given to emotionalism where the gifts are concerned because I have seen so much abuse and even from people I knew and trusted.

BTW, I do speak in tongues myself and have seen far too much prayers answered and even situations I was not aware of or things have come up that were just plain bad and then I remember having prayed in tongues and wondered why at the moment I had felt an 'urgency' (those who do pray in tongues will understand I am sure) and then I connect the two

I can actually say with all truth, that I know that 'tongues' have very much helped on a good number of occasions and others I know have the same testimony. and then of course there is all the wonderful praise to God and worship to Him that comes through this gift also. anyway, God is good! so very good

I am sorry so many are so turned off but I get why. we do also sadly have those who speak from another spirit and do not speak for God while saying they serve Him, so there is all of that too

I didn't know waggles had been banned? he was pretty abrupt though



that is true. good insight on your part

again, a great post on your part and one that I can readily agree with. Thank you.

The false the abuse and misuse of the Gifts is not something we should allow to deter us from seeking them from God for ourselves.
That would just make the enemy happy.
I think God would have us peruse and have and walk in the good Gifts of God as a judgement against the false making clear which is which.

 

[mailmandan]

Seriously you reject those scriptures as authoritative because Jesus spoke them before He ascended?

I never said I rejected those scriptures as authoritative because Jesus spoke them before He ascended. It's your misinterpretation of those scriptures that results in salvation by works that I reject.

Or to you reject them because they speak of the works of faith directly as a function of obedience out of love resulting in salvation which is fellowship with God through the receiving of Holy Spirit?

Obedience out of love and fellowship with God through the receiving the Holy Spirit is a result of salvation. You have it backwards because you teach salvation by works. When do we receive the Holy Spirit? *See (Acts 10:43-47; 11:16; 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13).

Or do you think you are saved in some other way apart from what Jesus describes here as you works of obedience out of love for Christ causing God to come to you and you receiving the Holy Spirit?

You are reading your own preconceived beliefs into John 14:23. Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. *(This is descriptive of believers).* 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words;
*(descriptive of unbelievers)* and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

Works of obedience produced out of love for Christ is the fruit of salvation and not the cause. Jesus is simply giving a description of believers in whom They come to and make Their home with. The fruit of the Spirit that is mentioned first in Galatians 5:22 is love. We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) The love of God has been poured out into the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5) You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

I added nothing you just removed from your understand the context of Paul speaking of the works of law everywhere.

Anyone can see when Paul said Grace through faith not by the works the entire surrounding context he is talking of the works of the law which is about an acceptableness of your works, a faith in yourself.

You add works "of the law" anytime Paul mentions works and then try to "dissect" works of faith/good works from the moral aspect of the law and limit works only to specific works, but as I previously explained to you in post #271, your argument sounds very similar to what Roman Catholics teach and is bogus. The end result is salvation by works.

While the works of faith have nothing to do with the acceptability of our own efforts to obey but rather who you are believing in when you obey.
One is a work of trusting in yourself.
The other is a work of trusting in Gods promises.

Sugar coated double talk that still results in salvation by works. Trusting in works of any kind is trusting in yourself to perform those works in order to be saved. You can't have it both ways. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. You need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Faith is an action word.
Faith without works is useless.
Faith without works is dead.
Faith without works saves no one.

Prior to my conversion several years ago, I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and they basically taught that man is saved through faith "infused" with works. Saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) just like you teach. Here is a statement below that a Roman Catholic recently made to me on a Christian Forum right after he told me that the Roman Catholic church doesn't teach works salvation and contradicted himself.

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. You sound like you are basically in the same boat.

Continued...

 

[mailmandan]

O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is unprofitable/worthless (gets you nothing)? Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was completed/perfected by what he did. without works faith is incomplete. Can an incomplete faith save you?

How about a little context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Come on smell the coffee.
You are going to end up neglecting such a great salvation if you dont.
Our faith is what causes us to put ourselves under His lordship.
Becoming His in the process.

Oh the irony. I already smelled the coffee over 20 years ago upon my conversion after leaving the Roman Catholic church. So what am I neglecting? Man is not saved by works. Period. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). You may end up neglecting such a great salvation by placing your faith in the wrong object. Namely, works.

If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord (an action/work)
if you believe in your heart God has raised him from the dead (not an action/work)
By which are you saved the believing or the acting?
When we place ourselves under Jesus lordship by our obedience to the faith we are saved.
Not just lip service but a work of obedience to love in the confession of faith.
Just like baptism saves as work of obedience in the confession of faith.

I often hear works-salvationists misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation. Water baptism follows believing unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-47)

to bring about the obedience of faith - Ro 5:1 Ro 16:26

In regards to obedience of faith, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of the One who holds the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation for being alive, yet you are dead. 2 Wake up and strengthen what remains, which was about to die; for I have found your works/deeds incomplete in the sight of My God. 3 Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you.

Jesus here points out the lifeless state of the church in Sardis - "..you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." This church may have had a name of being alive, but they were spiritually lifeless. In other words, the church was filled with unsaved people going through the motions of religion who needed to wake up and repent IN CONTRAST with a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Jesus in white.

*White garments are mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. The church at Laodicea mentions white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed. (Revelation 3:18). The 24 elders wear white garments (Revelation 4:4). The martyrs waiting for God’s judgment are given white robes to wear (Revelation 6:11). The armies appearing with the Messiah also wear white and clean linen (Revelation 19:14). The great multitude of the saved in Revelation 7:14 wear robes made white in the red blood of the Lamb. The color paradox makes the point and implies that the color white stands for God’s people made spiritually pure and justified by Jesus’ blood. That means the few in Sardis who were given white robes had been made right and just before God.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I can see as usual this is a waste of time

Go on believing as you wish. You can’t even get the baptism of the spirit right. You think I am going to trust you on anything else?

At least I gave you the opportunity to explain your position. (Which it seems you've declined,). So I guess I'll proceed with mine.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Lion222]

How about a little context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Oh the irony. I already smelled the coffee over 20 years ago upon my conversion after leaving the Roman Catholic church. So what am I neglecting? Man is not saved by works. Period. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). You may end up neglecting such a great salvation by placing your faith in the wrong object. Namely, works.

I often hear works-salvationists misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation. Water baptism follows believing unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-47)

In regards to obedience of faith, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

Jesus here points out the lifeless state of the church in Sardis - "..you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." This church may have had a name of being alive, but they were spiritually lifeless. In other words, the church was filled with unsaved people going through the motions of religion who needed to wake up and repent IN CONTRAST with a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Jesus in white.

*White garments are mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. The church at Laodicea mentions white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed. (Revelation 3:18). The 24 elders wear white garments (Revelation 4:4). The martyrs waiting for God’s judgment are given white robes to wear (Revelation 6:11). The armies appearing with the Messiah also wear white and clean linen (Revelation 19:14). The great multitude of the saved in Revelation 7:14 wear robes made white in the red blood of the Lamb. The color paradox makes the point and implies that the color white stands for God’s people made spiritually pure and justified by Jesus’ blood. That means the few in Sardis who were given white robes had been made right and just before God.

So you are saying James is teaching some are not saved by faith alone?
But I thought it was by faith alone.
James never denies he has faith does he?
He just says his faith is worthless incomplete un-perfected.
Because it was not united with the works of faith, the obedience of faith so it was dead.
So faith does not save until it is united with works...
So they must be a different kind of works.
Does the bible teach about different kinds of works?
Does the bible teach about different kinds of faith?
You says it is a type of faith that does not save.
I say it is a type of works that is needed to make it an un-dead faith.

I am just coming at the same thing from the other direction because I don't see the bible teaching of different types of faith.

It is through faith and by faith.
Faith without the through and the by is dead.
The through and the by are the works of faith.
They make faith alive.
They are what we declare in word and deed that makes Jesus our Lord.
Do you at least agree that it is Belonging to Jesus that saves you?
That he is Lord of all or not lord at all, you belong to him or you do not?

 

[KelbyofGod]

If one of the necessary criteria is seeing the risen Christ Jesus, then, yes, by 1 Cor 15

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

I know this might seem petty but I think you overlook what the answer means to your hypothesis, so I'll ask it this way:

How many of that list did Paul need to accomplish before he was an apostle?

Thanks.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Just reposting this for reference of what I mean as I describe the types of tongues that were happening in Acts 2.

1). "Native language" - The 1st naturally-learned earthly language of the person speaking (or hearing, depending on which person we're talking about). Could also be called "birth language".

2). "2nd language" - any earthly language learned by the speaker/hearer in addition to their native language

3). "Foreign language" - any earthly language that is not understood by the person being referenced

4). "Natural interpretation" - When someone provides the message of what was said in a foreign language to the hearer, because the interpreter knows both languages (has learned a 2nd language and can convert between the two).

5). "Babbly tongues" - That mumbly or unintelligible speech used by Charismatic Catholics and Pentecostals that they claim is a prayer language. I usually call this "unknown tongues" but will use "babbly tongues" to avoid confusing this with foreign languages.

6). "Diversities of tongues" - Speaking a foreign language(s) by the Spirit of God, not by way of having learned the language through natural means.

7). "Interpretation of Babbly tongues" - providing the message of what was said by babbly tongues.

I THINK that would cover most biblical situations, but I could easily have overlooked something important.

It's obviously not a comprehensive list of the uses of the word "tongues" because I've left out

• that body part between your teeth(that has taste buds),
• Archaic or extinct languages (assuming them included in 2nd languages), and
• made up langauges like Klingon or PigLatin