Was The Book Of Revelation Written Pre-70AD As Many Claim?

[Truth7t7]

the major point i hoped to make in the 'science derailment subtopic' is that science is not atheistic or secular: interpretations of science may be.

sorry i don't have much to add to the main topic, but i enjoy reading it. if i ask questions it's to probe, not to argue or accuse. ideas that stand up to scrutiny are the ideas worth holding onto, IMO
i don't feel sure enough about Revelation to make assertions in a thread like this -- 65 other books i still haven't mastered that come before it!

Science in many situations Promotes pre-determined fraudulent studies and outcomes, to achieve desired goals.

Global warming is just one example of the desired outcome and goal of Eco-Socialism

The Hegelian Dialect, Creat The Problem (Global Warming), Bring The Solution (Government Control), To Acheive The Desired Outcome (Eco-Socialism)

 

[posthuman]

Modern Secular Science Teaches

what's the highest level science class you've ever actually taken?

 

[Truth7t7]

*sigh*

observation indicates that everything in the universe came from a singular source in space and time. that's 'big bang' cosmology, sum & total. the Bible indicates the same thing.

just like there is nothing godless about saying oak trees come from acorns, there is nothing godless about 'big bang' hypotheses. they aren't origin theories, they're not theologies, they're not idols; they're theories about what the universe looked like milliseconds after the beginning and how it unfolded from there.

You can dance, sing, all ya want, secular modern Science denies a God creator, it will do everything possible to support life and creation outside of God.

You think Sciences fraudulent support of Piltdown Man in 1912, without question for 41 years was an accident, it was put into school text books and taught as fact for 41 years before it was exposed.

A Pre-Determined Fruadulent Agenda In The Name Of Science, Remove God From His Creation, Its That Simple.

Wikipedia: Piltdown Man was a paleoanthropological fraud in which bone fragments were presented as the fossilised remains of a previously unknown early human. Although there were doubts about its authenticity virtually from the beginning, the remains were still broadly accepted for many years, and the falsity of the hoax was only definitively demonstrated in 1953. An extensive scientific review in 2016 established that amateur archaeologist Charles Dawson was its likely perpetrator.[1]

The Piltdown hoax is prominent for two reasons: the attention it generated around the subject of human evolution, and the length of time, 41 years, that elapsed from its alleged initial discovery to its definitive exposure as a composite forgery.

 

[posthuman]

Science in many situations Promotes pre-determined fraudulent studies and outcomes, to achieve desired goals.

you're not talking about 'science' you're talking about interpretative bias. about conjecture. about unapologetic, pattern liars promoting 'alternative facts'
((i thought you admired & promoted those guys? lawl))

actual science is the rigorous processes of inquiry and the conclusions that can be drawn from the data that inquiry accumulates.

 

[posthuman]

You can dance, sing, all ya want, secular modern Science denies a God creator, it will do everything possible to support life and creation outside of God.

You think Sciences fraudulent support of Piltdown Man in 1912, without question for 43 years was an accident, it was put into school text books and taught as fact for 43 years before it was exposed.

A Pre-Determined Fruadulent Agenda In The Name Of Science, Remove God From His Creation, Its That Simple.

have you actually had any science instruction beyond high school?

if i called every pasta spaghetti, i would be saying a bunch of things about pasta in general that's not true at all, and i would be saying ridiculous things about ziti and orzo -- but i wouldn't even know how silly i sound until i learn that 'spaghetti' isn't equivalent to 'pasta'

 

[Truth7t7]

you're not talking about 'science' you're talking about interpretative bias. about conjecture. about unapologetic, pattern liars promoting 'alternative facts'
((i thought you admired & promoted those guys? lawl))

actual science is the rigorous processes of inquiry and the conclusions that can be drawn from the data that inquiry accumulates.

Sorry, modern scientist today are driven by $$$$ and agendas to (Create) pre-determined desired outcomes, controled and manipulated studies are used, you cant even get to interpretation of these studies, big smiles

Examples: Global Warming

Create the problem?

Ok guys, I (Secular Scientist) am going to perform a study using temperature stations, we are funded by George Soros, Green Peace, And Every Liberal Org in the world

Our desired outcome is to create information that supports our desired outcomes of increasing world temps?

Ok Fred, your going to be lead Scientist over weather station placement, yes get them as close to unnatural heat syncs as possible, buildings, mechanical engines, and heat sources.

Desired Outcome: fraudulent studies showing increased temps, to support government controls over the masses to reduce global warming.

 

[Truth7t7]

have you actually had any science instruction beyond high school?

if i called every pasta spaghetti, i would be saying a bunch of things about pasta in general that's not true at all, and i would be saying ridiculous things about ziti and orzo -- but i wouldn't even know how silly i sound until i learn that 'spaghetti' isn't equivalent to 'pasta'

Just One Example!

Did Secular Scientist Between 1912-1953 Support The Fraud Below, 100% Yes, And Its The Same Today, Nothing Has Changed, Smiles Again!

You didnt respond to sciences support of the fraudulent Piltdown Man of 1912, for 41 years, Real Big Smiles!

You think Sciences fraudulent support of Piltdown Man in 1912, without question for 41 years was an accident, it was put into school text books and taught as fact for 41 years before it was exposed.

A Pre-Determined Fruadulent Agenda In The Name Of Science, Remove God From His Creation, Its That Simple.

Wikipedia: Piltdown Man was a paleoanthropological fraud in which bone fragments were presented as the fossilised remains of a previously unknown early human. Although there were doubts about its authenticity virtually from the beginning, the remains were still broadly accepted for many years, and the falsity of the hoax was only definitively demonstrated in 1953. An extensive scientific review in 2016 established that amateur archaeologist Charles Dawson was its likely perpetrator.[1]

The Piltdown hoax is prominent for two reasons: the attention it generated around the subject of human evolution, and the length of time, 41 years, that elapsed from its alleged initial discovery to its definitive exposure as a composite forgery.

 

[iamsoandso]

I see it saying exactly what I said it said.
I'm sure you are aware that Greek cannot be translated to English word for word.

Yes but the Greek word therion and basileis are not difficult to translate. The point though is that the angel says in Rev, 17:7 that he is explaining the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her and your focused only on a particular king so your missing the beast that he says is in the pit at that time who was to ascend out of the pit. A question may be better though,,,who do you think is the beast that was wounded unto death and the wound was healed?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Yes but the Greek word therion and basileis are not difficult to translate. The point though is that the angel says in Rev, 17:7 that he is explaining the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her and your focused only on a particular king so your missing the beast that he says is in the pit at that time who was to ascend out of the pit. A question may be better though,,,who do you think is the beast that was wounded unto death and the wound was healed?

The beast is both a nation and a person.
I've said that before but I see John weaving back and forth between the two concepts.

The focus on Nero being King 6 is part of the whole view I hold on when Revelation was written..........the topic of this thread.
That is the reason for focusing on the kings.......for now.

AS to your question:

Rome is the wounded beast that healed.......wounded UNTO death.....not TO death.
For the time period of this particular beast there was as great fire that destroyed property, the word MASSIVE was used
THEN.......Nero began to rebuild a great extravagant villa......
AD64
This would have been during John's time on Patmos.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I fully agree, GraceAndTruth has made several claims on Nero,without providing her source?

Nero is his (her?) hero. What can you say?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

what's the highest level science class you've ever actually taken?

I think it was 6th grade Biology. All I remember is dissecting a frog.

 

[iamsoandso]

The beast is both a nation and a person.
I've said that before but I see John weaving back and forth between the two concepts.

The focus on Nero being King 6 is part of the whole view I hold on when Revelation was written..........the topic of this thread.
That is the reason for focusing on the kings.......for now.

AS to your question:

Rome is the wounded beast that healed.......wounded UNTO death.....not TO death.
For the time period of this particular beast there was as great fire that destroyed property, the word MASSIVE was used
THEN.......Nero began to rebuild a great extravagant villa......
AD64
This would have been during John's time on Patmos.

So then in verse 3 of https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13.htm it says "to death" and so your thinking that Nero is this same one who the Jews went to war with in ad66-70 ?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

So then in verse 3 of https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13.htm it says "to death" and so your thinking that Nero is this same one who the Jews went to war with in ad66-70 ?

verse if what chapter...........I am in 17

 

[iamsoandso]

verse if what chapter...........I am in 17

Do you see the beast who received a deadly wound in 13 and 17 the same or as two completely different beast? I see them as the same is why I ask.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Do you see the beast who received a deadly wound in 13 and 17 the same or as two completely different beast? I see them as the same is why I ask.

I think they have to be the same, Rome.
I see the same thing happening to Jerusalem too, destroyed to rubble and being raised again to a 'new life', but there is no association with the beast person in Jerusalem.

 

[iamsoandso]

I think they have to be the same, Rome.
I see the same thing happening to Jerusalem too, destroyed to rubble and being raised again to a 'new life', but there is no association with the beast person in Jerusalem.

Let me ask you this then if Rome,Nero is that beast that would set up an image and kill those who would not worship it then would it be possible for Paul to say to see it as ordained by God(Romans 13:1)? And if it is the same beast that gave the mark and none could buy or sell unless they had it then why would he say to give tribute to it(Romans 13:6-7), would that not mean Paul is suggesting to use it's mark? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 13&version=KJV

 

[iamsoandso]

I think they have to be the same, Rome.
I see the same thing happening to Jerusalem too, destroyed to rubble and being raised again to a 'new life', but there is no association with the beast person in Jerusalem.

I want to come back to this about Jerusalem/Israel but you realize if this is true then it received it's deadly wound in ad70 and if it was that one in the pit in Revelation 17:8 then Revelation would have been written after ad70 correct?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I think they have to be the same, Rome.
I see the same thing happening to Jerusalem too, destroyed to rubble and being raised again to a 'new life', but there is no association with the beast person in Jerusalem.

FYI
THE BEAST carries her (the beast which has 7 heads and 10 horns) (the 7 heads are the seven kings that ruled Rome…all Caesars….and the 10 horns are the conquered countries of the Romans Empire, Heruli, Suevi, Burgundian, Huns, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Visigoths, Anglo-Saxons.

BEAST
The beast serves the DRAGON (Satan)
One beast from the sea, one beast from the earth
These beasts represent the persecution of God’s people and will be with us until the end of our Millennium Age.
SEA creature – Satan’s persecuting power working through governing bodies/the POLITIAL Leader beast.
Earth creature – Jewish leadership persecuting Christian believers
The call of the Christian is to patience, endurance (steadfastness), and faithfulness.
The wounded beast is symbolic of the rulers that fall, but are replaced by more of the same.

Beast with 7 heads Rev 17:9
Beast is the 7 kings that ruled Rome up to the time of the destruction of the temple (under Galba’short rule)
The 10 horns are the 10 nations: Heruli, Suevi, Burgundian, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and Anglo Saxons. These TEN, made the ONE ROMAN EMPIRE

Nation Beast:
Roman Empire of John’s day
Heads = 7 kings that ruled Rome
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberious
4. Caligula (Gaius)
5. Claudius
Five have fallen (the dead kings) Rev 17:9
6. Nero
One is (reigning king of John’s day) 54-68 AD
7. Galba 68-69 AD VERY short reign
the other has not yet come ……remains a little while….
These scriptures put NERO as the reigning king.

1290 DAYS or 3 ½ YEARS or 42 MONTHS - Dan 12:11
and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty two months Rev 11: 2
This is the number of days that Jerusalem was under attack.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I want to come back to this about Jerusalem/Israel but you realize if this is true then it received it's deadly wound in ad70 and if it was that one in the pit in Revelation 17:8 then Revelation would have been written after ad70 correct?

Yes, I wanted to put my head in it before I made any statements. I want to re-read these parts of Revelation. (to get my revelation!)

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Let me ask you this then if Rome,Nero is that beast that would set up an image and kill those who would not worship it then would it be possible for Paul to say to see it as ordained by God(Romans 13:1)? And if it is the same beast that gave the mark and none could buy or sell unless they had it then why would he say to give tribute to it(Romans 13:6-7), would that not mean Paul is suggesting to use it's mark? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 13&version=KJV

1. yes
2. 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Jesus Himself said...give unto Caesar that which is Caesars