who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

[Corban]

Re: your phrases in bold ^ ... these are two distinct phrases referring to two distinct points in the chronology:

--"the TIMES of the Gentiles" (Lk21:24 [see also Rev11:2]) indeed ENDS at His Second Coming to the earth; THIS refers to what started in 606/605bc, and refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think: Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold"... and "Jerusalem TRODDEN DOWN/TREAD UNDER FOOT [of the Gentiles]" etc [NOT the equivalent of "the Church age," in other words]);

--"[UNTIL] the FULNESS [G4138 - plērōma] of the Gentiles BE COME IN [G1525 - eiselthē/eiserchomai" refers to a different thing, at a distinct point in the chronology (NOT at the END of the TRIB), even though there will be gentiles coming to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]; THIS speaks more to "purpose" regarding each time-slot (with "pleroma" carrying the meaning of "fulness of TIME" re: the Gentiles... IOW, He will turn His attention to focusing on His "My people Israel" AFTER "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point in time, as in, passages such as Ezek39:7 [Isa26:20 re: Israel; Hosea 5:14&15-6:3; Dan12:1-4,10; ] and many more... all referring to Israel IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs... which is also who the early sections of Matt24 is speaking of, like in v.9, not to mention the phrase "the least of these My brethren" in 25:40,45, also)



Disagree.

I do not believe the phrase "have eternal life" equates to "be raptured" and/or the like. For example, the Gentiles/nations at the END of the trib (who will have come to faith AFTER "our Rapture" and IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs, as consequence of Israel DOING the INVITING of them [TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [earthly MK age]"]), of them (the Sheep [of the nations]) it is said, "but the righteous into life eternal" [i.e. they ENTER the earthly MK age; and "shall never die" Jn11:26]... I do not think it is any less true of those having DONE the INVITING [of them]. IOW, they also will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years [not saying 100% of Israel will come to faith, mind you]

To the first part of your posting I can say that we more or less agree. Your use of parenthesis makes it difficult to be sure, but within a the lines of a little difference here and there, we can agree.

To the second part, you would have to show Israel BELIEVING. Your argument introduces things I never addressed - and would not. No matter when or how the rapture transpires, it has nothing to do with Israel believing. And if Israel remain blind and in unbelief till they SEE our Lord burst through the clouds, there is just no basis for having eternal life left. God has declared FAITH necessary for eternal life and Israel are concluded, until Christ is seen, in UNBELIEF. There is no way round this problem. And, as a detail, who do you think will be preaching the gospel then? The Christians will be in the wilderness (Rev.12:14-17) and they will have been defeated by the beast (Rev.13:7). The rest of the Christians will be joining in Babylon the Great (Rev.18:4).

Just to make sure I understood you, do you equate "eternal life" - the intrinsic nature of God, with "everlasting life" the nature of human life after being resurrected? They are two totally different things. "Eternal" denotes "no beginning and no end". "Everlasting denotes a beginning but no end.

 

[throughfaith]

To the first part of your posting I can say that we more or less agree. Your use of parenthesis makes it difficult to be sure, but within a the lines of a little difference here and there, we can agree.

To the second part, you would have to show Israel BELIEVING. Your argument introduces things I never addressed - and would not. No matter when or how the rapture transpires, it has nothing to do with Israel believing. And if Israel remain blind and in unbelief till they SEE our Lord burst through the clouds, there is just no basis for having eternal life left. God has declared FAITH necessary for eternal life and Israel are concluded, until Christ is seen, in UNBELIEF. There is no way round this problem. And, as a detail, who do you think will be preaching the gospel then? The Christians will be in the wilderness (Rev.12:14-17) and they will have been defeated by the beast (Rev.13:7). The rest of the Christians will be joining in Babylon the Great (Rev.18:4).

Just to make sure I understood you, do you equate "eternal life" - the intrinsic nature of God, with "everlasting life" the nature of human life after being resurrected? They are two totally different things. "Eternal" denotes "no beginning and no end". "Everlasting denotes a beginning but no end.

Do these verses add any to this discussion.
2 cor 3 .
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Zechariah 12.10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

[Corban]

Do these verses add any to this discussion.
2 cor 3 .
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Zechariah 12.10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Yes, they do. 2nd Corinthians 3:15-16 give the condition for the Veil that besets Jews to be removed. When "IT" shall turn - verse 16 - the HEART of the Israelite. But remember, it is removed "when reading Moses". Our Lord's accusation against the Jews was that the reason they did not believe Who He was, was because they did not believe Moses (Luke 16:29; John 5:46). They way for a Jew to be recovered is that he must first BELIEVE Moses (Deut. 30:1-5). And then he would find Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Christ.

Zechariah 12:10 affirms what I said. Israel only receive grace and restoration AFTER they have SEEN Christ. Rebirth and eternal life are not mentioned here, only bitterness at their loss. The Old Testament prophets did not predict EVER, that Israel would believe in their Messiah. They were promised a Messiah and promised much about what He would do when He came. But being born again, having eternal life and being partaker of the divine nature are not among these promises and predictions. Notice the grammar of their last prophet - Zacharias in Luke 1:67-79. Christ is their redeemer, savior, king and prophet, FOR WHAT? To put away their sins and restore them to their Land in peace and favor with God. Nothing is said about rebirth and eternal life. Why?

Romans 11:26 tells us. "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." Israel are only delivered when Christ COMES out of Sion, not Bethlehem or Galilee. This refers to the day Israel is saved - the day that Jesus bursts forth from the clouds to save Jerusalem. When is ungodliness removed from Israel? Daniel tells. ONLY AFTER the 70 weeks are fulfilled (Dan.9:24). And the 70th Week is the reign of the Beast. Israel's salvation is when the Beast is defeated at Armageddon.

 

[Tararose]

With regards the things you receive (be it the apostles or Israel or whomever you believe it to be) in this life if you leave all and follow Christ... I would think it would be the fact that the apostles became part of many families and households anywhere They went when people received Christ and had all things In Common. This would be another way to look at it... they left one home but found many as a result, they left one family and found many family members in Christ as a result etc.

It would seem the New Testament was focused on the treasure In heaven rather than on earth, an eternal body and eternal healing rather than a decaying one and a heavenly land And home and spiritual blessings over Large houses and patches of Soil and other practical blessings though our needs are met of course.

A simple explanation but not unreasonable I think

 

[Guojing]

Here is your point #4 of your posting #5. Quote;

I'm not sure what your point is, but I'll comment on this point #4. The BASIS for HAVING eternal life is FAITH (Jn.3:15-16). Now, FAITH is defined as the substance and hope of things NOT SEEN (Heb.11:1). Israel are "concluded by God" in Romans 11:32 as in UN-BELIEF. And according to the context this will remain until the "time of the Gentiles is full" (v.25). The point where the time of the Gentiles ends is Armageddon where Christ and His Overcomers crush the armies of the Gentiles. That means that Israel's UN-BELIEF STAYS UNTIL JESUS IS SEEN. Once Jesus is SEEN, there can be no FAITH, and with no FAITH there can be NO ETERNAL LIFE. Israel WILL NEVER HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

There is no way they can have it, there is no exception to God's rule and there is no scripture that says Israel will HAVE eternal life. They will be resurrected, they will be forgiven, they will be gathered back to their Land, they will get a New Covenant of Law, they will have Jesus dwelling in their midst, the will be the leading Nation and they will be saved from the curses of the Law. But they CANNOT; and WILL NOT, EVER, have eternal life.

My point was that Israel was promised physical blessings NOW, but they are not to be just contented with those physical blessings.

What Jesus did for them, in terms of the feeding of the 5000, was to point to them that he was the prophet Moses was talking about (Deut 18:15 and Acts 3:22)

Some of the Jews acknowledged that after that sign, stated in John 6:14 NKJV

"Therefore when the people saw the sign which He had performed, they said, 'This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.

The link between Jesus and Moses, thru that sign by those Jews had a straightforward reason: Their ancestors were fed through Moses calling down Mana from heaven, and now Jesus himself fed the 5000 men with the multiplication of bread and fish.

Which corresponds to what Deut 18:15 stated

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

But Jesus was very clear to point to all of Israel the need to acknowledge him as the Son of God with the next passage in John 6

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So physical blessings were promised to Israel but they were not to be an end in themselves, Israel need to believe in Jesus as their Messiah for them to get the spiritual blessings, which is everlasting life.

So I agree with you, Israel needed to have faith, to believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, then when Jesus returns for them in the 2nd coming, they will then receive that promised eternal life (Acts 3:19-21, 1 Peter 1:9)

But back to the first post in which you replied to, Israel rejected the Messiah, hence opening the door for us gentiles to receive that same spiritual blessing NOW.

But as my theme goes, we are not entitled to those same physical blessings.

 

[Guojing]

My point was that Israel was promised physical blessings NOW, but they are not to be just contented with those physical blessings.

What Jesus did for them, in terms of the feeding of the 5000, was to point to them that he was the prophet Moses was talking about (Deut 18:15 and Acts 3:22)

Some of the Jews acknowledged that after that sign, stated in John 6:14 NKJV

"Therefore when the people saw the sign which He had performed, they said, 'This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.

The link between Jesus and Moses, thru that sign by those Jews had a straightforward reason: Their ancestors were fed through Moses calling down Mana from heaven, and now Jesus himself fed the 5000 men with the multiplication of bread and fish.

Which corresponds to what Deut 18:15 stated

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

But Jesus was very clear to point to all of Israel the need to acknowledge him as the Son of God with the next passage in John 6

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So physical blessings were promised to Israel but they were not to be an end in themselves, Israel need to believe in Jesus as their Messiah for them to get the spiritual blessings, which is everlasting life.

So I agree with you, Israel needed to have faith, to believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, then when Jesus returns for them in the 2nd coming, they will then receive that promised eternal life (Acts 3:19-21, 1 Peter 1:9)

But back to the first post in which you replied to, Israel rejected the Messiah, hence opening the door for us gentiles to receive that same spiritual blessing NOW.

But as my theme goes, we are not entitled to those same physical blessings.

And I should add John 6:58

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The point by Jesus was that physical blessings are temporal, but had Israel recognized that those temporal blessings are pointing to something spiritual, something eternal, they shall have eternal life.

I guess thru this discourse, I can understand better what Paul was trying to teach us in Galatians 4:9

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

When I see the Body of Christ now going back to the 4 Gospels and seeking the same signs and wonders, aka Bill Johnson, this understanding would help to recognize that, signs and wonders are always linked to Israel's gospel of the kingdom, and Christ himself clearly stated that signs are to point Israel to spiritual blessings.

We in the Body of Christ have those same spiritual blessings, right now, because Israel rejected their gospel of the kingdom. Why do we then want to return to those physical blessings, which according to Paul, are the weak and beggarly elements, that Israel had during the 4 Gospels?

 

[Corban]

My point was that Israel was promised physical blessings NOW, but they are not to be just contented with those physical blessings.

What Jesus did for them, in terms of the feeding of the 5000, was to point to them that he was the prophet Moses was talking about (Deut 18:15 and Acts 3:22)

Some of the Jews acknowledged that after that sign, stated in John 6:14 NKJV

"Therefore when the people saw the sign which He had performed, they said, 'This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.

The link between Jesus and Moses, thru that sign by those Jews had a straightforward reason: Their ancestors were fed through Moses calling down Mana from heaven, and now Jesus himself fed the 5000 men with the multiplication of bread and fish.

Which corresponds to what Deut 18:15 stated

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

But Jesus was very clear to point to all of Israel the need to acknowledge him as the Son of God with the next passage in John 6

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So physical blessings were promised to Israel but they were not to be an end in themselves, Israel need to believe in Jesus as their Messiah for them to get the spiritual blessings, which is everlasting life.

So I agree with you, Israel needed to have faith, to believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah, then when Jesus returns for them in the 2nd coming, they will then receive that promised eternal life (Acts 3:19-21, 1 Peter 1:9)

But back to the first post in which you replied to, Israel rejected the Messiah, hence opening the door for us gentiles to receive that same spiritual blessing NOW.

But as my theme goes, we are not entitled to those same physical blessings.

Brother, we are not far apart, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. Not one of your scriptures says that Israel BELIEVED

John 6 says that it is "on offer", but we know it was refused. "His OWN (Israel) RECEIVED HIM NOT"

Acts 3:19-21 does offer eternal life, and 4:4 shows about 5,000 accepted it. They "believed". But then, when a man believes, something happens. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says that he BECOMES a NEW CREATURE and his past is wiped out. He is a member then of the New Man IN WHICH there are no Israelites (Gal.3:28, Col.3:10-11). We discuss Israel - Paul's brethren "according to the flesh".

1st Peter 1:9 concerns the salvation of the SOUL - a totally different matter to "eternal life". Peter was writing to converted Jews. They were now Christians, or better, the New Creation and their Israeli ethnicity is wiped out.

Brother, there is just no way Israel can ever receive eternal life. They can have their sins washed white, be resurrected, be restored to their Land, be safe from enemies and host God in their midst, but they CANNOT have eternal Life. And there is no direct statement, nor intimation, in the whole Bible, that an unbeliever will ever have eternal life.

 

[Guojing]

Brother, we are not far apart, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. Not one of your scriptures says that Israel BELIEVED

John 6 says that it is "on offer", but we know it was refused. "His OWN (Israel) RECEIVED HIM NOT"

Acts 3:19-21 does offer eternal life, and 4:4 shows about 5,000 accepted it. They "believed". But then, when a man believes, something happens. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says that he BECOMES a NEW CREATURE and his past is wiped out. He is a member then of the New Man IN WHICH there are no Israelites (Gal.3:28, Col.3:10-11). We discuss Israel - Paul's brethren "according to the flesh".

1st Peter 1:9 concerns the salvation of the SOUL - a totally different matter to "eternal life". Peter was writing to converted Jews. They were now Christians, or better, the New Creation and their Israeli ethnicity is wiped out.

Brother, there is just no way Israel can ever receive eternal life. They can have their sins washed white, be resurrected, be restored to their Land, be safe from enemies and host God in their midst, but they CANNOT have eternal Life. And there is no direct statement, nor intimation, in the whole Bible, that an unbeliever will ever have eternal life.

I agreed with you that the nation Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, their leaders stoned Stephen in Acts 7.

So yes, Israel did not believe. I am saying "Had Israel believed in Jesus, they shall have eternal life when Christ returns for them".