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Deadflesh
Guest
Thats pretty accurate. Thank you Mpaper.
"But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." 1 Corinthians 9:27
We need to be our own Nehamiah. (except for the oaths. No oaths, just obey God.)
Mankind in general? Are you a universalist?
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Umm the context of that passage is rewards not salvation. It's basically saying how ironic and pathetic it would be for Paul to forfeit a crown through his own lack of self-discipline or by breaking the Judge's rules since He had instructed others concerning how to win one.
Perhaps God has more than one mood that He expresses to get His message across. He had one mood toward the adulterous women, another mood toward the religious Pharisees, a different mood of compassion when He was with the multitudes, another mood when He wept because of Mary and Martha's unbelief in Him being the resurrection and the life and still another mood that asked the Father to let the cup pass from Him in the garden. What do you think the mood of God was in (1Kgs 18:27) when Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal? Different moods for different folks but in each case the mood of God was perfect and just and right. Didn't Jesus have some different names for different folk like when He called Herod a 'fox', a crafty man in (Lk 13:31,32).
The thread is about losing salvation and how God relates to sinners through grace and those that know the Lord and have been saved by His grace understand their great need for the grace of God in relationship to sin. You like to throw some legalism in the mix because to you God's grace can't be that good to sinners that He would actually die for them and as them. Did you have a problem reading Isaiah 53 and getting the message from God through the written word? What a beautiful chapter and what a revelation of Jesus Christ as the propiation for our sins and transgressions. What grace and what mercy from almighty God.
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Deadflesh
Guest
umm no.
"For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" Romans 8:13
Put the death the mis deeds of the body. How? SELF_DISCIPLINE the kind that can only come from relying soley on Jesus Christ. The missdeeds are dissobedience, Sin.
"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?" 2 Corinthians 13:5
"I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." Philipians 3:14
The TEST, is like a one that tests metal, to see if the metal is fit for the use. The PRIZE is Jesus. HE is eternal life, HE is suppsoed to BE our life here. If anythign comes before HIM WE are not worthy OF him.
HE said it, multiple times.
So if we arent being led by the spirit in all things, walking in the spirit, ARE we doing what we are supposed to? and if we arent doing what we are called to do, isnt that dissobedience? and since LOVE is obedience, disobedience is lack of Love for God, yes? so thats living a life of SIN, if you think you can justify not giving your entire life to Jesus. Am i wrong? So if we are living justification by grace(which is correct) then we, now being justified, live in total service to Jesus. Completely sold out to Christ. Since HE bought us. WE are his bond servents, HIS slave. Are you the LORDS Slave? Or have you made him second in command to your life? This isnt me condemning you, this is what we should ask oursleves daily. I ask myself this daily. IT IS A RACE. Are we running? or have we fallen asleep?
Keep yourself disciplined(dead)
in Jesus. We all need to do this. HE needs to be LORD. not us.
What you fail to grasp is that because Christ died for our sins, because we are not under law but under grace, sin shall not be our master,
This obviously offends you, but it is the truth of scripture. So in effect you are arguing against the Bible
Can a Christian Lose His or Her Salvation?
by Greg Johnson
One major debate within Christian circles is the question of whether or not a Christian can lose his or her salvation. Arminians argue that true believers can sin so much that they lose their faith and perish. Some Christians respond by arguing that once a person professes faith in Jesus, he is eternally secure in his salvation and—even if he commits complete apostasy ("falls away") and vocally rejects Jesus Christ—will still go to heaven, for "once saved, always saved." In light of the biblical doctrine of predestination, how should we understand the security we have under God's care? There have been three main approaches to the question:
1. Classic Arminianism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
"The believer who loses his faith is damned."
2. Antinomianism• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
"The believer who loses his faith is damned."
• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.
"The believer who loses his faith is saved."
3. Classic Calvinism• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.
"The believer who loses his faith is saved."
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it's God's gift.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
• Those who "lose" their faith never had it to begin with.
• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.
"The 'believer' who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn't in Jesus."
Proponents of the first two approaches quote biblical references, but each must strain to explain away the other group's biblical data. How can an Arminian read Romans 8, then tell true believers that they may screw up and go to hell??? Then again, how can Charles Stanley read Hebrews 6 and 10 and tell unbelievers who once professed faith not to worry, that they will be saved??? Any true biblical teaching must "fit" with ALL the biblical data, without pitting one text against another and without having to explain away a single "jot or tittle" of God's inerrant Word. I believe that only the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it's God's gift.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
• Those who "lose" their faith never had it to begin with.
• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.
"The 'believer' who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn't in Jesus."
Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they're right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn't use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and "once saved, always saved." But both of these views are wrong is assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is "a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast." Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).
Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. As the Westminster Assembly concluded, Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to be chief among the apostles! Two biblical principles must be held side-by-side:
1. You Must Persevere until the End: God's Requirement of His People
God does not merely command us to begin to believe for a time, and then fall away. He requires us to continue to believe until the end, living lives of repentance and covenant faithfulness. Granted, He does not ask for a perfect faith, but He does ask for a real faith, one that produces real, lasting change.
• Colossians 1:21-23
• 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6
• Hebrews 10:26-31
• Hebrews 12:1
2. You Will Persevere Until the End: God's Preservation of His People• 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6
• Hebrews 10:26-31
• Hebrews 12:1
We will persevere because God preserves us. God will keep us from falling—not one will be lost of all those who belong to the Son. True believers are not able to leave Christ, for Christ is at work within them.
• John 6:38-40
• John 10:28-29
• Romans 8:28-39
• Philippians 1:4-6
• Philippians 2:12-13
• 1 John 2:19
This first set of texts cannot be used to refute the second (Arminianism); nor can the second set of texts be used to refute the first (cheap grace). The point that makes the two compatible is the biblical teaching that faith (while commanded of everyone) is a gift from God to His elect. If faith is simply a human action of a free will, then it can be lost. But if saving faith is God's gift, then it cannot be lost. Can professing Christians fall away? Yes, and they will perish. Can true Christians fall away? No, for they are kept by the invincible power of God in Christ. The Bible teaches us that professing Christians who leave the faith were never truly believers (1 John 2:19; and notice the qualification even in Hebrews 10:39).• John 10:28-29
• Romans 8:28-39
• Philippians 1:4-6
• Philippians 2:12-13
• 1 John 2:19
"They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved." —Westminster Confession of Faith 17.1, drafted by the Westminster Assembly at the request of the British Parliament 1643-47
Umm Yes, The context of 1 Corinthians 9:27 below. It is talking about rewards not salvation. Using that passage to teach salvation can be lost is a gross perversion of the text. It seems you have misinterpreted the passages teaching loss of rewards to mean loss of salvation, which is not so.
Co 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
1Co 9:17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship.
1Co 9:18 What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
1Co 9:19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
1Co 9:23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
1Co 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
1Co 9:25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
1Co 9:26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air.
1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
See also chapter 3.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it.
1Co 3:11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
i am a new creature in Christ.
i'm NOT killing my new man, okay? i like him!
christian disciplines are joyful! His yoke is easy!
the trip to Calvary was my agónizomai.....i do not need to repeat it: He is The Door, and He opened and i entered in. He knows me by name, and i know His voice and i can lie down in green pastures, i can rest knowing the Good Shepherd watches over me, and no one can steal me away.
Luke 13:24
“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
to contend for a prize, struggle
Original Word: ἀγωνίζομαιPart of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: agónizomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee)
Short Definition: I strive, contend
Definition: I am struggling, striving (as in an athletic contest or warfare); I contend, as with an adversary.
Cognate: 75 agōnízomai (from 73 /agṓn, "conflict/struggle," the root of the English term, "agonize") – properly, to struggle, like engaged in an intense athletic contest or warfare (Souter). See 73 (agōn).
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Deadflesh
Guest
so deny self daily, which is a command from Jesus. is something you dont have to do?
When paul said "I die daily" that was just ya know, "crazy paul comming up with silly doctrine again"
Your new man, is NOTHING like the old man. if there is even slight OLD man in you YOU ARE NOT DONE. You are NOT dying.
If YOU are doing those thigns, then YOU are ok. MANY are not doing those things. So WHY are YOU attacking like im telling YOU?
Deny self daily. If you dont, you are dissobeying Jesus. and therefore living in Sin. and those living in Sin, are PRACTISING SIN. and you CANT practise sin, adn be a righteous child of God. If you are dying daily, and denying self, then you argee wit hwhat i have been saying adn there is no argument.
When paul said "I die daily" that was just ya know, "crazy paul comming up with silly doctrine again"
Your new man, is NOTHING like the old man. if there is even slight OLD man in you YOU ARE NOT DONE. You are NOT dying.
If YOU are doing those thigns, then YOU are ok. MANY are not doing those things. So WHY are YOU attacking like im telling YOU?
Deny self daily. If you dont, you are dissobeying Jesus. and therefore living in Sin. and those living in Sin, are PRACTISING SIN. and you CANT practise sin, adn be a righteous child of God. If you are dying daily, and denying self, then you argee wit hwhat i have been saying adn there is no argument.
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FireOnTheAltar
Guest
Amen yet again bro!
As a wise man in the Lord once said, the real gospel either saves or offends. We should expect no less.
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FireOnTheAltar
Guest
Irresistable Grace? Are you kidding?
Just because one believes that Christ came so that entire world might be saved does not mean that person believes that all will be saved. God, being omnipotent sees the beginning from the end thus He was well aware from the foundations of the world who would accept His "gift" to the whole world and who would not. Those who freely surrender themselves for His purposes are His elect.
For God to send Jesus for a select chosen few and not all would make God a hypocrite and Christ's sacrifice meaningless. God would have no right damning someone to hell for their evil nature if it was His will for them to be dominated by that evil nature in the first place. God's sovereign will is never threatened by the free will of men.
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Why would anyone be offended in that which they rejoice in. There is so much joy in the grace of God, in the forgiveness and cleansing of sin and in having God impute His righteousness to us when we believed. There is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents and receives God's mercy and grace through Christ for salvation. There is joy in seeing a brother restored by the grace of God who was overtaken in a fault. There is continual joy in knowing that God has removed His wrath from us and that we are no longer under condemnation. No one can hardly take offense, when the goodness of God has been demonstrated to us. How can we take offense to God's grace that has justified us FREELY through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom 3:24). The more we grow in grace and knowledge of Christ the more we desire to be like Him and to be with Him (1Jn 4:17).
The cross is responsible for crucifying the old sin nature in man that produces sins. We reckon ourselves to be crucified with Christ and to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God (Rom 6:11). God in His infinite mercy and grace took care of our sin and our sins through the cross. How many believers have been befuddled by (Rom 7:15-21)...
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would , that do I not; but what I hate , that do I . 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is , in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do . 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Paul is keeping himself separate from his sin nature and is blaming it for that things that he allows and does that are no good but evil and has also concluded that even when he does good evil is present with him. What do you think he meant in (Rom 7:23) ...
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Here's an apostle that is being used by God and understands the grace of God better than any man that ever lived with an old sin nature. He understands that he is crucified with Christ and what the cross has done to his old sin nature. Could this man of God also have a problem with sin? You would think after all this time being a servant of God, receiving grace and so much revelation from God, that he would be sanctified enough so that he would not have a problem with evil and sin bringing him into captivity. Shall we dismiss all of this in (Rom 7) and label it as a bad translation or that no one is able to really understand what is being discussed under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? I think that the remainder of (chapter 7) and (Rom 8) is sufficient to give us the answer to this dilemma with being brought into captivity to the law of sin in his members.
BTW - There is no reference or warning of him losing his salvation that was given to him by grace even when he was beingheld captive by the law of sin that was in his members.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
All respect to you my friend. But can you show me in the above passage where it states any of the following?
1. This only happens when one believes and does anything else.
2. Thus guarantee is not a literal guarantee, but a conditional one
3. This guarantee may stop at any time before the day of redemption.
4. This seal is not a literal seal. But may be broken.
Why would we want to add to the word of God things which are not there?
You are way off here.
Rom 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey, whether YOU ARE SLAVES TO SIN WHICH LEADS TO DEATH, or to obediance which leads to righteousness
Rom 6:15&16
So, according to your understanding of Rom ch 7, Paul by what he says in ch 6 is living a life that leads to death, not one of obediance that leads to righteousness, therefore Paul is doomed
I will await your further understanding and explanation of these verses, I am sure you will not disappoint me!
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Then you teach a gospel of works. And not of faith in Christ. You also teach a gospel which could never be fulfilled. Because everyone will die with unrepented sin in their life. it is impossible not to.
Yes, He said if one di dnot heed to disciplin he was to be cast out that his body may be destroyed, but his spirit saved. What does this have to do with salvation?
Paul is not talking about working to be saved, He is talking about working out the RESULT of your salvation. Striving to be perfect so that when God wants to use you you are not usless for Gods ministry for you. And you do not show up in heaven empty (gold silver precious stones vs wood hay straw.
Then they were never saved. Salvation is by grace through faith. Not be deeds of righteousness we have done. Do we throw those verses out of scripture?
Actually is means God in his omniscient power know not only what you said. But who would place their faith in him, and not reject him, Whome he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed. God knew everything you would ever do. he knew you personally before the foundation of the world. And he either counted you in (because you trusted him) or out (because you rejected him) even though you were not even born yet.
Calvin was horribly wrong. Your correct in that unlimited atonement is offered to all mankind!
Yes there are many licentious christians out there who claim to be saved because they said a few words. Yet there are many more who think they are saved because they are righteous., or do good deeds. or go to church and do sacraments, or whatever they think they do to earn Gods grace. Their faith is in their works, Not in the work of Christ. and they are in just as much danger of hellfire as the licentious person who thinks he saved just because he said a few words!
first of all: do you know what The Cross is, as an instrument of torture and death?
i think if you scoured this entire forum, you will not find a single post by anyone claiming to be regenerate that says we do not still struggle against temptation, or that we are free and pleased to sin sin sin.
of course it's with us! in fact, if you are REALLY honest, you'll find out just how sinful you REALLY still are....because even ONE sin is enough to condemn you before a Holy God.
the longer we are christians, the more victory we have over sin (which is no longer our master), the more sensitive we are to what sin we do still have. if anything, the internal struggle can INTENSIFY even though the sin is far less frequent. the more we know of The Lord's Holiness (no matter how godly our lives become), do you REALLY believe you are holy like God? what is Christ's righteousness for then? do you need His garment?
what you seem unwilling to admit is that you yourself are still a sinner. that's why you get the reaction you get. not because some of us use The Cross as a cover for our double lives
, but because some actually claim they no longer sin (they just make mistakes).no one denies the Power of The Holy Spirit, the Grace of God to provide us the means to stop the old ways, resist temptation (because we hate sin now, even though we still find we have sinned). do you say the prayer the Lord taught us to pray? do you leave out the part "forgive us"?
QUESTION:
when did Paul write this chapter?
and was he looking back to his former life as a Pharisee?
is this, as some say, a parenthetical chapter not related to Paul but to Saul?
Romans 7
Released from the Law
1Or do you not know, brothersa—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.b 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.c
The Law and Sin
7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
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FireOnTheAltar
Guest
For the record, Irresistable Grace represents the letter "I" in the Calvinistic anology T.U.L.I.P. While I have met good Christian Calvinists out there, most Christian intellectuals who exalt knowledge over the love for lost souls. Seeing as they believe most people are predestined for hell, they can become very unfriendly to those who do not agree with their beliefs. So much so, that shortly after the Protestant Reformation , Calvinism replaced Catholcism as the religious bully on the block by performing their own brand of Inquisitions & Executions.
Believe it or not primitive Baptists were Arminian in their beliefs until they came under heavty fire by the Calvinistists. It was then that they beggan to adopt Cavinistic ideals rather than be burned at the stake. That compromise, along with a few others, is what has lead to the phrase of "once saved alwats saved". However, the current concept of OSAS was not born until the mid 1950's / 1960's when several men gather at Dallas Theological Seminary and began to lay down the foundations of the Modern Baptist\ faith. Unfortunately they decided to adopt and fuse two very controversial concepts from two very different, almost oppostire belief systems: Preserverance of the Saints from Calvinism and Carnal Christianity (which is not a desired state of being according to the Holiness) from the Holiness faith. Once fused and adopted, they began preaching that a person could be saved in sin while still enslaved by sin and that they could never lose their salvation. Thus rebellious sinners are not only saved, they are uncontionally secure, a concept which was neber preached or accepted up until that point as well as rejected by every other religious belief system including Calvinism.