Why isn’t the new covenant part of “Isaiah only”?

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Jan 12, 2019
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It feels SO good to have someone agree with me about what scripture tells us. I have struggled so with the idea that God cancels something, so some things are said to not be eternal at all. It didn't seem to mesh with the holiness, the glory, the righteousness of all that is God.

You even state it in a clearer way than I ever managed.
You also believe you are included in the "House of Israel" and the "House of Judah"?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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You also believe you are included in the "House of Israel" and the "House of Judah"?
What I believe means nothing, it is only what the Lord tells us in scripture that is truth.

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God" (Romans 2:28–29).
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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But we will never know whether we will persevere in the future right?

So how can one be sure now?
If you are not a false prophet unto yourself, but honest with yourself, you will always have certainty of your salvation. If we remain believing like a child, that Jesus / Yeshua died for our sins, we persevere in God's given faith, that bears fruit, prepared by God. Test your God-given faith by your God-prepared fruits.

Beware of the lawless prophets that says God-given faith does not produce God-prepared fruit, of obedience to God's law, will and commandments of love to God and fellow man, the spirit of lawlessness is the spirit of the anti-Christs / anti-Messiahs.


Matthew 7 (ESV)


15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.



2 Thessalonians 2 (ESV)


7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Matthew 24 (ESV)


12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold (as the law is love for God and fellow man, including unborn babies for example). 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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It feels SO good to have someone agree with me about what scripture tells us. I have struggled so with the idea that God cancels something, so some things are said to not be eternal at all. It didn't seem to mesh with the holiness, the glory, the righteousness of all that is God.

You even state it in a clearer way than I ever managed.
Thank you for your words of encouragement and gratitude Blik, it is appreciated beyond words, glory to God in humbleness, He who lifts the veil of his Word to the simple, meek minded.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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If you are not a false prophet unto yourself, but honest with yourself, you will always have certainty of your salvation. If we remain believing like a child, that Jesus / Yeshua died for our sins, we persevere in God's given faith, that bears fruit, prepared by God. Test your God-given faith by your God-prepared fruits.
But my question to you is, since we cannot tell the future, we can never be sure we will persevere to the end right?

If you agree, please answer with a yes. If you disagree, say no, and explain why.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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What I believe means nothing, it is only what the Lord tells us in scripture that is truth.

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God" (Romans 2:28–29).
I will take that as a yes?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
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But my question to you is, since we cannot tell the future, we can never be sure we will persevere to the end right?

we can never be sure we will persevere to the end right? No, we can be certain - ask God

If you agree, please answer with a yes. If you disagree, say no, and explain why.
"we can never be sure we will persevere to the end right?" No to disagree, we can be certain

God can tell your heart, spirit and mind the future, if we go on our knees and ask Him, what does He reveal to you about your salvation through his Spirit (our comforter) and his Word? He will answer you, if he answers you, you can be certain. Pray that He may grant us the perseverance through trials and tests, as God will not allow Satan to test us above our limits through trials and tests. Be comforted by God's Spirit that God will also guide his elect covenant people through divine guidance through the great tribulation of the last 3.5 years on earth. It however does not mean that no physical harm will come to you in this present temporary life, your eternal physical destiny on the new heaven and earth can however not be touched.


Ephesians 6 (ESV)


12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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"we can never be sure we will persevere to the end right?" No to disagree, we can be certain

God can tell your heart, spirit and mind the future, if we go on our knees and ask Him, what does He reveal to you about your salvation through his Spirit (our comforter) and his Word? He will answer you, if he answers you, you can be certain. Pray that He may grant us the perseverance through trials and tests, as God will not allow Satan to test us above our limits through trials and tests. Be comforted by God's Spirit that God will also guide his elect covenant people through divine guidance through the great tribulation of the last 3.5 years on earth. It however does not mean that no physical harm will come to you in this present temporary life, your eternal physical destiny on the new heaven and earth can however not be touched.
I supposed you have already done it and you are now 100% sure he answered you with a "Yes"?

How would one know whether he answers with a yes?

What if one think he heard a no, instead?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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I supposed you have already done it and you are now 100% sure he answered you with a "Yes"?

How would one know whether he answers with a yes?

What if one think he heard a no, instead?
If we have doubt, we should be disturbed, and pray to God, for the God-given grace of salvation, of God-given faith, of childlike belief, that Jesus / Yeshua our King had died for his elect, restored covenant peoples' sins. If one beliefs this like a child, there can be no doubts of one's salvation.

Luke 24:36 - end (KJV)

oftheCreator.com
 
Jan 12, 2019
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If we have doubt, we should be disturbed, and pray to God, for the God-given grace of salvation, of God-given faith, of childlike belief, that Jesus / Yeshua our King had died for his elect, restored covenant peoples' sins. If one beliefs this like a child, there can be no doubts of one's salvation.

Luke 24:36 - end (KJV)

oftheCreator.com
When you mention the term "elect", you are saying you believe in TULIP?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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When you mention the term "elect", you are saying you believe in TULIP?
The word 'elect' was mentioned, because that is the term in God's Word, for God's covenant people (from every tribe and people), also of the specific generation of the 'elect' that will endure the great tribulation. For those who are not of the 'elect', the non-'elect' who take the mark of the beast, it will be no tribulation at all. The great tribulation is the final Refiner's fire, for the faith of the 'elect'. After that the end will come, with the destruction of the anti-Christ / anti-Messiah and those who took his mark. This destruction happens while the 'elect' is being raptured to meet Jesus / Yeshua in the clouds at his second coming. The anti-Christ / anti-Messiah will be destroyed, along with this present earth, with the breath of the words of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach. Then there will be no more pain or suffering for the 'elect', in the new heaven and on the new earth, in the new Jerusalem, whilst eternal damnation awaits the non-'elect', who did not belief, and whose last generation also took the mark of the beast.

The term 'elect', referring also to that generation of the 'elect' (from every tribe and people), that has to go through the great tribulation, is referred to in Mathew 24:22 and again in Mathew 24:24. In Revelation 13:8 we also learn that God's restored covenant people were predestined before the creation of the world.


Matthew 24 (ESV)


21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people (not just Jacob's trouble, but all nation's trouble) and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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The word 'elect' was mentioned, because that is the term in God's Word, for God's covenant people (from every tribe and people), also of the specific generation of the 'elect' that will endure the great tribulation. For those who are not of the 'elect', the non-'elect' who take the mark of the beast, it will be no tribulation at all. The great tribulation is the final Refiner's fire, for the faith of the 'elect'. After that the end will come, with the destruction of the anti-Christ / anti-Messiah and those who took his mark. This destruction happens while the 'elect' is being raptured to meet Jesus / Yeshua in the clouds at his second coming. The anti-Christ / anti-Messiah will be destroyed, along with this present earth, with the breath of the words of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach. Then there will be no more pain or suffering for the 'elect', in the new heaven and on the new earth, in the new Jerusalem, whilst eternal damnation awaits the non-'elect', who did not belief, and whose last generation also took the mark of the beast.

The term 'elect', referring also to that generation of the 'elect' (from every tribe and people), that has to go through the great tribulation, is referred to in Mathew 24:22 and again in Mathew 24:24. In Revelation 13:8 we also learn that God's restored covenant people were predestined before the creation of the world.


Matthew 24 (ESV)


21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people (not just Jacob's trouble, but all nation's trouble) and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
So you answer is no, you don’t subscribe to tulip?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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So you answer is no, you don’t subscribe to tulip?
Let me look up the mnemonic TULIP:

Looks like its called a misrepresentation by scholars. So I don't think I will dwell into it.

Here it is for your ease of reference. Is there any specific concerns you harbour?

From "TULIP" found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Five_points_of_Calvinism .

Most objections to and attacks on Calvinism focus on the "five points of Calvinism", also called the doctrines of grace, and remembered by the mnemonic "TULIP".[69] The five points are popularly said to summarize the Canons of Dort;[70] however, there is no historical relationship between them, and some scholars argue that their language distorts the meaning of the Canons, Calvin's theology, and the theology of 17th-century Calvinistic orthodoxy, particularly in the language of total depravity and limited atonement.[71] The five points were more recently popularized in the 1963 booklet The Five Points of Calvinism Defined, Defended, Documented by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. The origins of the five points and the acronym are uncertain, but they appear to be outlined in the Counter Remonstrance of 1611, a less known Reformed reply to the Arminians that occurred prior to the Canons of Dort.[72] The acronym was used by Cleland Boyd McAfee as early as circa 1905.[73] An early printed appearance of the T-U-L-I-P acronym is in Loraine Boettner's 1932 book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.[74] The acronym was very cautiously if ever used by Calvinist apologists and theologians before the booklet by Steele and Thomas.[75]

  • "Total depravity", also called "total inability", asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God, but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to trust God for their salvation and be saved (the term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as they could be).[76] This doctrine is derived from Calvin's interpretation of Augustine's explanation about Original Sin.[77] While the phrases "totally depraved" and "utterly perverse" were used by Calvin, what was meant was the inability to save oneself from sin rather than being absent of goodness. Phrases like "total depravity" cannot be found in the Canons of Dort, and the Canons as well as later Reformed orthodox theologians arguably offer a more moderate view of the nature of fallen humanity than Calvin.[78]
  • "Unconditional election" asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.[79]
  • "Limited atonement", also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all. Some Calvinists have summarized this as "The atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect."[80]
  • "Irresistible grace", also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ." This is not to deny the fact that the Spirit's outward call (through the proclamation of the Gospel) can be, and often is, rejected by sinners; rather, it is that inward call which cannot be rejected.
  • "Perseverance of the saints" (also known as "perseverance of God with the saints" and "preservation of the believing") (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with (1 John 2:19), or, if they are saved but not presently walking in the Spirit, they will be divinely chastened (Hebrews 12:5–11) and will repent (1 John 3:6–9).[81]
 
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Let me look up the mnemonic TULIP:

Looks like its called a misrepresentation by scholars. So I don't think I will dwell into it.

Here it is for your ease of reference. Is there any specific concerns you harbour?

From "TULIP" found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Five_points_of_Calvinism .

Most objections to and attacks on Calvinism focus on the "five points of Calvinism", also called the doctrines of grace, and remembered by the mnemonic "TULIP".[69] The five points are popularly said to summarize the Canons of Dort;[70] however, there is no historical relationship between them, and some scholars argue that their language distorts the meaning of the Canons, Calvin's theology, and the theology of 17th-century Calvinistic orthodoxy, particularly in the language of total depravity and limited atonement.[71] The five points were more recently popularized in the 1963 booklet The Five Points of Calvinism Defined, Defended, Documented by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. The origins of the five points and the acronym are uncertain, but they appear to be outlined in the Counter Remonstrance of 1611, a less known Reformed reply to the Arminians that occurred prior to the Canons of Dort.[72] The acronym was used by Cleland Boyd McAfee as early as circa 1905.[73] An early printed appearance of the T-U-L-I-P acronym is in Loraine Boettner's 1932 book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.[74] The acronym was very cautiously if ever used by Calvinist apologists and theologians before the booklet by Steele and Thomas.[75]

  • "Total depravity", also called "total inability", asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God, but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to trust God for their salvation and be saved (the term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as they could be).[76] This doctrine is derived from Calvin's interpretation of Augustine's explanation about Original Sin.[77] While the phrases "totally depraved" and "utterly perverse" were used by Calvin, what was meant was the inability to save oneself from sin rather than being absent of goodness. Phrases like "total depravity" cannot be found in the Canons of Dort, and the Canons as well as later Reformed orthodox theologians arguably offer a more moderate view of the nature of fallen humanity than Calvin.[78]
  • "Unconditional election" asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.[79]
  • "Limited atonement", also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all. Some Calvinists have summarized this as "The atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect."[80]
  • "Irresistible grace", also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ." This is not to deny the fact that the Spirit's outward call (through the proclamation of the Gospel) can be, and often is, rejected by sinners; rather, it is that inward call which cannot be rejected.
  • "Perseverance of the saints" (also known as "perseverance of God with the saints" and "preservation of the believing") (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with (1 John 2:19), or, if they are saved but not presently walking in the Spirit, they will be divinely chastened (Hebrews 12:5–11) and will repent (1 John 3:6–9).[81]
Do you find it very hard to answer with a yes or no?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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The great tribulation and anti-Christ / anti-Messiah, only enters the stage after Israel is restored (Ezekiel 37 - 40), and the temple is rebuilt, after the battle of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38. All this only happens after Ephraim (Israel's 10 tribes from the Gentiles), reunites with Judah (Israel's 3 tribes of the Jews) in Ezekiel 37, and Judah also then accepts Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach as heavenly King, under an earthly servant David (Judah).

As father Jacob's / Israel's son Ephraim's 10 tribes, were scattered among the Gentiles 2700+ years following the Assyrian captivity, and had intermingled and adopted some Gentiles, and already came to accept Jesus / Yeshua, as the heavenly King of Israel, and can not make Aliyah to current Israel because of that, we await father Jacob's / Israel's son Judah's 3 tribes (Judah / Benjamin / Levi) to accept Jesus / Yeshua as the heavenly King of restored Israel. Then the two sticks of Ezekiel 37, of Ephraim and Judah will become one in the hand of heavenly Jesus the Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, and Israel's restored covenant people will be whole again, under an earthly servant from the house of David (Judah). So before Ezekiel 40's temple, which the anti-Christ / anti-Messiah, will enter at the last 3.5 years of the end of days, after restored Israel, Judah's acceptance of Christ / Messiah and of their brother Ephraim (still among the Gentiles in the Body of Christ), of Ezekiel 37 will first happen.


Zechariah 12 (ESV)


10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.


Romans 11 (ESV)


7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." 9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever." 11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.


Ezekiel 37 (ESV)


18 And when your people say to you, 'Will you not tell us what you mean by these?' 19 say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. 20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, 21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 24 "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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But my question to you is, since we cannot tell the future, we can never be sure we will persevere to the end right?

If you agree, please answer with a yes. If you disagree, say no, and explain why.
If the Lord does not preserve us, it really doesn't matter what you believe. But scripture has proven right in so many ways. In its prophecy, and in the marvelous way our body and the world works. If it follows that scripture is right, it is a win win policy to obey it.

Just look at the stars on a clear night. Einstein couldn't even come close to that.
 
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If the Lord does not preserve us, it really doesn't matter what you believe. But scripture has proven right in so many ways. In its prophecy, and in the marvelous way our body and the world works. If it follows that scripture is right, it is a win win policy to obey it.

Just look at the stars on a clear night. Einstein couldn't even come close to that.
I am just curious how others who do not rightly divide the word of truth understand this topic.

For me, I believe in the following scripture for the Body of Christ. Ephesians 4:30, so yes we are automatically preserved until the rapture.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.