Calling Jesus "Lord,' without choosing to obey Him with one's life, is useless and is not able to save anyone.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
what are those good works ? And where do we learn what they are ? And why is it important ?

...

but his grace was shed abroad with his judgements , who is the eternal judge and has declared his judgements and said they will forever stand then he declared anyone who hears the gospel and believes being baptized for remission because they do believe would be saved.

....
Agreed, for interest sake: What about the salvation of babies or small children or individual's of incapacitation who died - and received the grace of salvation - but could not reason believe or decide themselves to be baptized? As we are all born into sin.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
what are those good works ? And where do we learn what they are ? And why is it important ?

By mercy and truth iniquity is purged:

and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭16:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s important to hear about and talk about that part of the gospel because it’s a real thing. I’m so very thankful for Gods Grace because I myself , everyone I love and all of us would have been condemned to death forever.

but his grace was shed abroad with his judgements , who is the eternal judge and has declared his judgements and said they will forever stand then he declared anyone who hears the gospel and believes being baptized for remission because they do believe would be saved.

we don’t need to be perfect we simply aren’t yet . What we need to do is seek
Out the lord in the gospel because that’s where he shows himself to mankind , that’s where his words are filled with light and life of men.

To believe will produce a lot of fruit in one persons life and a little in another’s life because we are judged according to what we understand about right and wrong according to Jesus not moses
Law but according to the judgements of God in truth when he came and showed himself in Christ and became our intercessor and mediator.

in the Old Testament God appears like this when he gives his word

“And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭19:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But the New Testament when God came to Give his word in Christ he appears like this

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the New Testament is a teacher of repentance and righteousness the old was an accusation against a sinner .

Grace saved Noah also brother genesis 6:8 but he was still Instructed to build the ark and he obeyed because he believed Gods word that it would save him and his family . Has he said “ I have faith lord , you shewed me grace so there’s no need to follow what your saying “

faith means you believe Gods word , Noah believes Gods word about the end coming , so faith built the ark with Noah’s obedience and he became heir of the righteousness of faith Paul teaches us about . We need to be like Noah with the gospel Jesus taught and the apostles taught .


“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is all we really need faith in him but we need faith that comes from him and his ways and words that’s just how I believe no one else has to . I think discussion is good when we can freely talk and not worry about thinking anyone else has got to agree and see it our way

I’m not that way I think salvation is between those who believe in Jesus from the scriptures and God the Father through him . I like everyone else have beliefs that I myself am pretty sure of and discussion without argument really helps us to consider other ideas and thoughts concerning the Bible

God bless
And thanks for having the right spirit of discussion






He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Agreed, we have to believe in what we do, helping to proclaim the Kingdom of God on earth, through Jesus' / Yeshua's sin atonement.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,071
4,901
113
Agreed, we have to believe in what we do, helping to proclaim the Kingdom of God on earth, through Jesus' / Yeshua's sin atonement.
yes indeed and well put it’s easy to say the terms by grace and through faith . But we should not settle for a summary which lacks any understanding of what faith and grace are according to scripture Hebrews 11 is a treasure trove regarding faith and it’s operation .

can really see the difference in faith and self righteousness in that chapter and that the law has nothing to do with faith . But faith is when God gives an instruction and a Corresponding promise and the person believes that promise . And that alone moves the person simply because God spoke and they believe .

“Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him;....
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the simplicity of faith . God speaks a word That is true and a corresponding promise that will result From what he said , if the person believes him there is faith to move them. Knowing his word is sure really enriching conversation thank you for the simplicity and well stated thoughts
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,071
4,901
113
Agreed, for interest sake: What about the salvation of babies or small children or individual's of incapacitation who died - and received the grace of salvation - but could not reason believe or decide themselves to be baptized? As we are all born into sin.
that’s where the accountability of sin comes in . All have sin indeed it’s the human condition . However sin is not taken into account where the law is not present in the conscience .

if you are sinning and you don’t know you are sinning it is not accounted to you. So babies and young children aren’t judged as if they were adults who understood right and wrong. Even in the mosaic law we see the pattern that those under 12 were not held to account for thier sins.

in Christ you have to know you are sinning in order to transgress. It’s when I know what good I’m supposed to do , and then I don’t do it then it is sin to me.

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have to be conscious of what we are doing and it’s consequences for it to be recognized by God as sin. We can’t pretend not to know because God is with us in our minds and hearts we can’t hide anything we know . Christ made salvation personal it isn’t a universal standard all must reach each ones judgement will be unique according to the gospel based upon what they knew and what they did

“And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:....
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s impossible for us to judge each other because we don’t know what level of understanding another has been given . We often look at others as if we are setting their standard , but we’re setting our own standard and others have thier own salvation to work out between themselves and the lord .

we can grow together and learn together and help one another in many ways in this world but salvation is between Jesus and the person. Babies and youngsters aren’t going to be punished as if they were scholars .

also Jesus preached the gospel after death to many , so when a decent person dies without having the opportunity to hear and believe the gospel , I’m not sure but knowing the lord he is going to give everyone an opportunity he doesn’t ignore when things happen out of our control he always provides would be just my own view on that
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
that’s where the accountability of sin comes in . All have sin indeed it’s the human condition . However sin is not taken into account where the law is not present in the conscience .

if you are sinning and you don’t know you are sinning it is not accounted to you. So babies and young children aren’t judged as if they were adults who understood right and wrong. Even in the mosaic law we see the pattern that those under 12 were not held to account for thier sins.

in Christ you have to know you are sinning in order to transgress. It’s when I know what good I’m supposed to do , and then I don’t do it then it is sin to me.

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have to be conscious of what we are doing and it’s consequences for it to be recognized by God as sin. We can’t pretend not to know because God is with us in our minds and hearts we can’t hide anything we know . Christ made salvation personal it isn’t a universal standard all must reach each ones judgement will be unique according to the gospel based upon what they knew and what they did

“And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:....
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s impossible for us to judge each other because we don’t know what level of understanding another has been given . We often look at others as if we are setting their standard , but we’re setting our own standard and others have thier own salvation to work out between themselves and the lord .

we can grow together and learn together and help one another in many ways in this world but salvation is between Jesus and the person. Babies and youngsters aren’t going to be punished as if they were scholars .

also Jesus preached the gospel after death to many , so when a decent person dies without having the opportunity to hear and believe the gospel , I’m not sure but knowing the lord he is going to give everyone an opportunity he doesn’t ignore when things happen out of our control he always provides would be just my own view on that
Agreed, God's will is that we shall love him with all our heart, soul, mind and might and our fellow man as ourselves. None of God's 10 commandments contradict that which we shall love. Jesus / Yeshua even expanded on the commandments, saying that you will be judged by your words of anger / character murder in the same sense as murder. How can we steer clear of God's law / commandments, if that is what tells us what is sinful conduct? Or should we just wilfully stay ignorant of God's law / commandments, so that we can say "ignorance is bliss", and we think we will not be judged for that we did not wilfully seek to know God's will?


Matthew 5 (ESV)


19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.


Matthew 5 (ESV)


48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ????
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,071
4,901
113
Agreed, God's will is that we shall love him with all our heart, soul, mind and might and our fellow man as ourselves. None of God's 10 commandments contradict that which we shall love. Jesus / Yeshua even expanded on the commandments, saying that you will be judged by your words of anger / character murder in the same sense as murder. How can we steer clear of God's law / commandments, if that is what tells us what is sinful conduct? Or should we just wilfully stay ignorant of God's law / commandments, so that we can say "ignorance is bliss", and we think we will not be judged for that we did not wilfully seek to know God's will?


Matthew 5 (ESV)


19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.


Matthew 5 (ESV)


48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ????
you tell a sinner “ don’t commit adultery, if you commit adultery you must surely be put to death” in order to show them sin and death .

if you want to save someone who has acknowledged already thier sins , and understand those sins mean condemnation , you don’t keep showing them sin and death right ?

instead of you want to save them from that law that condemns them not for what they might do but what they have already done, everyone already failed the law and the law condemns everyone for that, there is no leviticle prriesthood sacrificing as the law requires anymore any sinner is condemned by the law that is it’s purpose . It has no redeeming value brother it can only condemn and reveal a need for Christ who taught the true law .

If you want to save that person who is already condemned because of sin by the law , you have to begin speaking a new thing that fulfills the requirement of thier death , And speaks life into thier minds And hearts rather than condemnation .

Moses law is not for a Christian we are have said to die with Christ which is the end of the law you sin , you die , the end of the laws requirement is death.

we are baptized into that death requirement

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;

that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter...
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:4-11‬ ‭

You can tell a sinner “ don’t commit adultery or you will surely die “ forever and it won’t change thier heart it will only create transgression because they have sin inside thier heart and nature .

if you tell them the lust inside thier minds and hearts is the issue and teach them the truth about Gods judgements so they can overcome that issue in the spirit then adultery won’t even be something that is an issue .

it’s the law of the flesh and the law of the spirit

“ don’t commit adultery”

“ but I say unto you whoever looks with lustful intents in thier Mind and heart has already committed adultery in thier heart “

one will cause a person not to ever really repent where it matters and be set free

the other will shine light on the issue and give ability to overcome at the root of the problem by the spirit so the weakness of the flesh is never exposed

we have to become clean inside the outward salvations will follow The law keep a person focused on sin and death , the gospel is about resurrection and eternal life
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
you tell a sinner “ don’t commit adultery, if you commit adultery you must surely be put to death” in order to show them sin and death .

if you want to save someone who has acknowledged already thier sins , and understand those sins mean condemnation , you don’t keep showing them sin and death right ?

instead of you want to save them from that law that condemns them not for what they might do but what they have already done, everyone already failed the law and the law condemns everyone for that, there is no leviticle prriesthood sacrificing as the law requires anymore any sinner is condemned by the law that is it’s purpose . It has no redeeming value brother it can only condemn and reveal a need for Christ who taught the true law .

If you want to save that person who is already condemned because of sin by the law , you have to begin speaking a new thing that fulfills the requirement of thier death , And speaks life into thier minds And hearts rather than condemnation .

Moses law is not for a Christian we are have said to die with Christ which is the end of the law you sin , you die , the end of the laws requirement is death.

we are baptized into that death requirement

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;

that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter...
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:4-11‬ ‭

You can tell a sinner “ don’t commit adultery or you will surely die “ forever and it won’t change thier heart it will only create transgression because they have sin inside thier heart and nature .

if you tell them the lust inside thier minds and hearts is the issue and teach them the truth about Gods judgements so they can overcome that issue in the spirit then adultery won’t even be something that is an issue .

it’s the law of the flesh and the law of the spirit

“ don’t commit adultery”

“ but I say unto you whoever looks with lustful intents in thier Mind and heart has already committed adultery in thier heart “

one will cause a person not to ever really repent where it matters and be set free

the other will shine light on the issue and give ability to overcome at the root of the problem by the spirit so the weakness of the flesh is never exposed

we have to become clean inside the outward salvations will follow The law keep a person focused on sin and death , the gospel is about resurrection and eternal life
Without law there is no repentance.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
John 8 (ESV)

1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."]]


1 Corinthians 6 (ESV)


9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,071
4,901
113
Without law there is no repentance.
with the law of Moses there can be no repentance

“Thou shalt not commit adultery “

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Tell Me friend If adulterers are commended in the law to be put to death how can they repent ?

or how about this fellow under the law

“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32, 35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is a conclusion of the entire mosaic law you sin you die. We have the LAW of Christ not Moses . The gospel is about repentance not condemning sinners for sin but to come to those same sinners and preach repentance into thier mind and hearts who will believe of course

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christians have a law it’s not Moses law

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ’s law is our law that leads to repentance the law of Moses only condemns separate the two covenants completely they aren’t one covenant

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re in the new covenant we have a mediator Jesus they had Moses , we have a priesthood order mechezidek they had Aaron , we have the law of our mediator Jesus Christ , they had the law of thier mediator Moses . If you are baptized it means you have died to the mosaic law . That’s what scripture teaches and you belong to God now through Jesus and have his law which is certain life rather than certain death
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
with the law of Moses there can be no repentance

“Thou shalt not commit adultery “

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Tell Me friend If adulterers are commended in the law to be put to death how can they repent ?

or how about this fellow under the law

“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32, 35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is a conclusion of the entire mosaic law you sin you die. We have the LAW of Christ not Moses . The gospel is about repentance not condemning sinners for sin but to come to those same sinners and preach repentance into thier mind and hearts who will believe of course

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christians have a law it’s not Moses law

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ’s law is our law that leads to repentance the law of Moses only condemns separate the two covenants completely they aren’t one covenant

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re in the new covenant we have a mediator Jesus they had Moses , we have a priesthood order mechezidek they had Aaron , we have the law of our mediator Jesus Christ , they had the law of thier mediator Moses . If you are baptized it means you have died to the mosaic law . That’s what scripture teaches and you belong to God now through Jesus and have his law which is certain life rather than certain death
Is punishment not a different matter than the law (God's commandments) to be obeyed. Jesus / Yeshua took the punishment under the new covenant, but is there not still a law that defines sins that are forgiven?

Under our new covenant with God, is the law abolished, or now written on our hearts and minds?
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
2,266
1,419
113
can someone please explain what 'I love you in the Lord' actually means?

I have never found that sentiment in the Bible

sounds a bit like 'God hates the sin but loves the sinner' but that is not in the Bible either

do little heart shapes make this love seem more real?

hmmm

I find the phrase ... well....dismissive actually

but that may just be me :cautious:
I think it could mean I love you as my brother or sister in Christ. I think it might also be said to distinguish between a romantic I love you verses a friendly love. That's some of my thoughts on it. It may mean different things to different people who say it though so it may be best to ask the person who says it what they mean by the statement.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,071
4,901
113
Is punishment not a different matter than the law (God's commandments) to be obeyed. Jesus / Yeshua took the punishment under the new covenant, but is there not still a law that defines sins that are forgiven?

Under our new covenant with God, is the law abolished, or now written on our hearts and minds?
the law of Moses is not for Christians , it’s for those who reject Christ to hold them to account before God.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-23‬ ‭

Gods commandments are everything jesus said from this point

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A lot of People struggle with this understanding there’s a lot of prophecy but Jesus said it really well if we believe we will know where Gods commandments come from

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;

but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses wrote about this time that was coming In the law itself And that Christ’s word would be the words of God . And the people would have to heed that prophets words .

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:22-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter is quoting Deuteronomy the situation was God began to speak and the people in fear pleaded with Moses not to have God speak to them again . But Moses they asked would
Mediate a relationship between them and God .

Which God allowed , but what else God did was promised that a different prophet would be raised up from the people of Israel and he would be the one to hear and obey he would speak the words of God

“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18:16, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

peter of course there makes clear it’s Jesus but then look at what jesus was saying

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

...For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

...It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.

Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.

....It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

...Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:29, 33, 35, 45-48, 63, 68-69‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To believe Jesus is life to reject him is death

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses is an accuser by his law but those who come to God through Christ have salvation

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

...Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:39-40, 43, 45-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which Jesus is referencing what Moses has said about the messiah and his words when he came

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:

for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:23-26‬ ‭

 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
the law of Moses is not for Christians , it’s for those who reject Christ to hold them to account before God.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-23‬ ‭

Gods commandments are everything jesus said from this point

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A lot of People struggle with this understanding there’s a lot of prophecy but Jesus said it really well if we believe we will know where Gods commandments come from

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;

but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses wrote about this time that was coming In the law itself And that Christ’s word would be the words of God . And the people would have to heed that prophets words .

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:22-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter is quoting Deuteronomy the situation was God began to speak and the people in fear pleaded with Moses not to have God speak to them again . But Moses they asked would
Mediate a relationship between them and God .

Which God allowed , but what else God did was promised that a different prophet would be raised up from the people of Israel and he would be the one to hear and obey he would speak the words of God

“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18:16, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

peter of course there makes clear it’s Jesus but then look at what jesus was saying

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

...For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

...It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.

Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.

....It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

...Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:29, 33, 35, 45-48, 63, 68-69‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To believe Jesus is life to reject him is death

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses is an accuser by his law but those who come to God through Christ have salvation

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

...Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:39-40, 43, 45-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which Jesus is referencing what Moses has said about the messiah and his words when he came

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:

for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:23-26‬ ‭

Thanks brother, what do you think did Jesus / Yeshua mean when he spoke this law? :


Matthew 23 (ESV)


2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
 
L

lenna

Guest
I think it could mean I love you as my brother or sister in Christ. I think it might also be said to distinguish between a romantic I love you verses a friendly love. That's some of my thoughts on it. It may mean different things to different people who say it though so it may be best to ask the person who says it what they mean by the statement.

right

in this thread, I found it being used to avoid discussion ;)

but your explanations are certainly plausible
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,071
4,901
113
Thanks brother, what do you think did Jesus / Yeshua mean when he spoke this law? :


Matthew 23 (ESV)


2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
brother he was talking to Israel all Israel was bound to the law , the law was governed by the priests and Pharisees. Why would Jesus tell people sworn to obey the mosaic law anything different ?

the covenant ended when they crucified the messiah that was the fulfillment of the old covenant .

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

some read that “ not a word will disappear from the law until heaven and earth pass away” but that’s not what he said he said it wouldn’t happen until all was fulfilled”

this is what he was talking about

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44, 46-47‬ ‭

do you see what I’m saying ? Until Jesus died and fulfilled the requirement of the law which is death for sin , no one could die with him and have the law fulfilled.

once this happened all Jesus said became the covenant and all
Moses said became a witness of the messiah and his authority . When Jesus does for sin it fulfilled the requirements of the law and baptism means we died with him to that law that requires death for all sinners .

The real law of God would go forth from Jerusalem after the messiah rose from the dead

“And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭

The law of Moses came from the desert of sin from a burning mountain that’s not for us it’s about sin and death keeping away from God lest they died .

the gospel came from heaven and was sent out by Christ after he rose up from death having removed the curse of the law and sent forth the blessing of eternal Life In the gospel to all the world all people that might believe and be saved

beginning at Jerusalem and sent to the world after the prophecies about Christ raising up we’re fulfilled

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ fulfilled the law for us so we don’t die in our sins , and he gave us a better living true way to know God , belong to God , and be called the children of God but his infalloble And immutable word of truth found in the gospel
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
brother he was talking to Israel all Israel was bound to the law , the law was governed by the priests and Pharisees. Why would Jesus tell people sworn to obey the mosaic law anything different ?

the covenant ended when they crucified the messiah that was the fulfillment of the old covenant .

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

some read that “ not a word will disappear from the law until heaven and earth pass away” but that’s not what he said he said it wouldn’t happen until all was fulfilled”

this is what he was talking about

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44, 46-47‬ ‭

do you see what I’m saying ? Until Jesus died and fulfilled the requirement of the law which is death for sin , no one could die with him and have the law fulfilled.

once this happened all Jesus said became the covenant and all
Moses said became a witness of the messiah and his authority . When Jesus does for sin it fulfilled the requirements of the law and baptism means we died with him to that law that requires death for all sinners .

The real law of God would go forth from Jerusalem after the messiah rose from the dead

“And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭

The law of Moses came from the desert of sin from a burning mountain that’s not for us it’s about sin and death keeping away from God lest they died .

the gospel came from heaven and was sent out by Christ after he rose up from death having removed the curse of the law and sent forth the blessing of eternal Life In the gospel to all the world all people that might believe and be saved

beginning at Jerusalem and sent to the world after the prophecies about Christ raising up we’re fulfilled

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ fulfilled the law for us so we don’t die in our sins , and he gave us a better living true way to know God , belong to God , and be called the children of God but his infalloble And immutable word of truth found in the gospel
Yes the new covenant is the gospel covenant, where God's laws of love God and your fellow man, is written on our hearts.

Hebrews 8 (ESV)


8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
Yes the new covenant is the gospel covenant, where God's laws of love God and your fellow man, is written on our hearts.

Hebrews 8 (ESV)


8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Which of the 613 mitzvot ( https://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm ), does not command love for God and your fellow man, as yourself?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,071
4,901
113
Yes the new covenant is the gospel covenant, where God's laws of love God and your fellow man, is written on our hearts.

Hebrews 8 (ESV)


8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
amen . And amen

so what became of the eternal
Covenant made with Israel according to the law of Moses ? Christ died to bring believers out of it , but why ?

What is it’s eternal purpose now that it was broken and all Men were found out transgressors ?

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there is a curse from Transgressing Moses law written in the law itself if it’s broken That covenant it’s an eternal Curse upon Israel.

this then is the last verse of the prophets it’s a reference to John the Baptist coming to prepare the people for the messiah look at where the curse goes if the messiahs coming did not change them at thier heart

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus later explains this is about John who is the promised Elijah who would precede the lords ministry of salvation.

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬


That promised new covenant was the last things the prophets wrote of a few hundred years then passed and Christ was born then you have the New Testament beginning with wheee the old left of the fulfillment of those things beginning to come into the world

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. ( Malachi 3:1)

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that was the beginning of salvation and the promises throughout scripture

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40:3-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The New Testament is a revelation of what the Old Testament was saying was going to come and offer salvation

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we see God in the New Testament , but barely even heard him through the ot

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭45:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Old Testament is to look at our God through our own sins and the sins of the world . We can’t see of hear him . The New Testament is Him coming to make everything clear and true and eternal and unchanging the ot was a bridge required to condemn the world for sin specifically so the message of the savior which was from the beginning , could be believed , needed by man for salvation and life . Exalting the Lord in truth he loves us and is trying to save us , he wants us to be saved and doesn’t want us to be condemned he is for us not against us

we see avid differently in the New Testament and that includes we see his will differently we don’t follow the law which led to condemnation but the one which leads to eternal life and salvation to come
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,071
4,901
113
Which of the 613 mitzvot ( https://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm ), does not command love for God and your fellow man, as yourself?
brother consider the scriptures in the New Testament

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:

for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭

the law of Moses is not a bunch of individual commands . It is one law it requires complete obedience to every letter in it. If tou transgress Moses law any aspect of it you are the same as someone who breaks it daily. There’s no difference to God in a liar and a thief , an adulterer and a murderer. The law has to be entirely kept that’s a curse on imperfect people .

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re sinners it’s human flawed nature , it doesn’t matter if we sinned a couple times or a lot we all have to repent and believe the gospel now . Do you see James saying “ judged by the law of liberty ? Who shows no Mercy will receive no mercy ? That’s the gospel Of the kingdom

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:37-38‬ ‭


you know how opposite that is from Moses law which says that sin “ eye for an eye , wound for wound , stripe for stripe , burning for burning life for life “ equal and exact revenge is what the law taught . That’s not Love .

Jesus teaches mercy for mercy . Tou
Know that judgement seat of Christ we all have to appear before ? It’s not according to moses earthly carnal
Law at all it’s about mercy

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory....

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee .....

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee ....

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31, 34-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice that Moses doesn’t talk about any such things ? No eternal
Judgement no kingdom of God , no I’m returning one day from heaven , all of Moses law is about the descendants of abram the Hebrew and blessings in thier land he promised . But he also said after he delivered them into the promised land they would break his covenant and be cursed and driven off the promises land and it would be made desolate. That’s what happened to thier covenant it became a curse upon the world and a blinder to the gospel

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament;

which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Can’t see through a dark veil only shapes and shadows , but the gospel is revelation of God made plain . They trusted in the rules of the law and because of that they couldn’t hear the prophecies it holds of Jesus who would come with something new , later. They couldn’t see the laws end as many can’t today

“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:6-7, 12-13‬ ‭
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
amen . And amen

so what became of the eternal
Covenant made with Israel according to the law of Moses ? Christ died to bring believers out of it , but why ?

What is it’s eternal purpose now that it was broken and all Men were found out transgressors ?

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

....
Yes brother, I agree the renewed covenant is the fulfilment, of the eternal covenant to God's covenant people, Israel the Body of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Messiah:

God's law of love for God and fellow man as yourself, is now written on our hearts and minds, with the new covenant written in Jesus' / Yeshua's blood:

Jeremiah 31 (ESV)


31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a (Renewed covenant: ) new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." 35 (Eternal covenant: ) Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: 36 "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever."


Jeremiah 33 (ESV)


(Eternal covenant:) 25 Thus says the Lord: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them."


Hebrews 8 (ESV)


(Renewed covenant:) 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."