Today’s church’s misunderstandings

[Ogom]

=============================
oh my gosh,
first of all, where are your 'scriptures for this statement'???
second of all,
'It is written: MATT. 5:17.
Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law,
till all be fulfilled.
19.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees,
you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

and what was a sin of the Scribes and Pharisees?

they thought they knew the truth. but they didn't. and they taught others to think as they thought.

 

[Blik]

You just proved my point.

your focused on works,

paul said to focus on Christ,

he also said I should not judge you because you chose one day, and you should not judge me as I give every day to the lord.

I do not focus on works, that is a false accusation. I focus on Christ. People who are against what Christ told us to do are not focusing on Christ.

 

[posthuman]

OK he literally calls it "the day called that of the sun"

Ci raccogliamo tutti insieme nel giorno del Sole, poiché questo è il primo giorno nel quale Dio, trasformate le tenebre e la materia, creò il mondo; sempre in questo giorno Gesù Cristo, il nostro Salvatore, risuscitò dai morti. Infatti Lo crocifissero la vigilia del giorno di Saturno, ed il giorno dopo quello di Saturno, che è il giorno del Sole, apparve ai suoi Apostoli e discepoli, ed insegna proprio queste dottrine che abbiamo presentato anche a voi perché le esaminiate.

 

[posthuman]

Ci raccogliamo tutti insieme nel giorno del Sole, poiché questo è il primo giorno nel quale Dio, trasformate le tenebre e la materia, creò il mondo; sempre in questo giorno Gesù Cristo, il nostro Salvatore, risuscitò dai morti. Infatti Lo crocifissero la vigilia del giorno di Saturno, ed il giorno dopo quello di Saturno, che è il giorno del Sole, apparve ai suoi Apostoli e discepoli, ed insegna proprio queste dottrine che abbiamo presentato anche a voi perché le esaminiate.

 

[posthuman]

another example from Justin Martyr, ~ 155 AD

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts?​

Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII​

​

now, one could say ((and an SDA or Judaizer would certainly say)), well he is an heretic and dismiss his argument.
that's a different topic -- but there is no way to read this and still cling to the idea that Christians were all keeping sabbaths and meeting on sabbaths until Constantine. it's my intent by posting this to establish that; arguing over whether we ought to observe sabbath and prevent ourselves from meeting on the 8th day is an whole other argument, but let's not fall into the rampant conspiratorial re-writing of history that certain cults engage in.

 

[oldethennew]

OK he literally calls it "the day called that of the sun" in Greek. No bones about it, he is talking about sunday, the day after the sabbath of the Jews.

200 years before Constantine the church fathers were without controversy saying that Christian tradition was to meet in the 8th day / 1st day and also adamantly affirming that this was the day Christ rose. This is one generation from the apostles themselves, people who sat at the feet of the apostles.

'blah blah Constantine changed the day Christians met' is rubbish. These people were being killed just for believing in Christ, you think they would go along with being forced to worship on a different day? Nope.

All that said, sunday is not sabbath. Christians don't meet on sabbath, that was never a command given to us - were not observing sabbath when we meet; that's not the purpose.
and anyone calling the 8th day 'Christian sabbath' is every bit as confused as the SDA.

=============================
POST,
you are absolutely right when you say there is 'no command to ASSEMBLE on the SABBATH -
it was customary, and Christ and Paul both went to the synogoges \

 

[posthuman]

another example from Justin Martyr, ~ 155 AD

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts?​

Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII​

​

now, one could say ((and an SDA or Judaizer would certainly say)), well he is an heretic and dismiss his argument.
that's a different topic -- but there is no way to read this and still cling to the idea that Christians were all keeping sabbaths and meeting on sabbaths until Constantine. it's my intent by posting this to establish that; arguing over whether we ought to observe sabbath and prevent ourselves from meeting on the 8th day is an whole other argument, but let's not fall into the rampant conspiratorial re-writing of history that certain cults engage in.

notice he doesn't say 'the apostles changed it' @oldethennew @Benadam @Ogom

he says Christians know why the Law was given to the Jews, and that's why those who believe in Christ don't observe its rites and ceremonial days.

now why would this respected early Christian theologian say that?

 

[posthuman]

=============================
POST,
you are absolutely right when you say there is 'no command to ASSEMBLE on the SABBATH -
it was customary, and Christ and Paul both went to the synogoges \

they both went there to evangelize, friends

both were working for the salvation of Israel, and that's where you find Israel on the 7th day.

all i mean to add to the thread is that the facts of history are that Christians met together to worship and break bread together on the 8th day, from the earliest beginnings of the church. AFAIK it's an 'urban myth' that this wasn't their custom until Constantine 'changed it'

 

[Ogom]

notice he doesn't say 'the apostles changed it' @oldethennew @Benadam @Ogom

he says Christians know why the Law was given to the Jews, and that's why those who believe in Christ don't observe its rites and ceremonial days.

now why would this respected early Christian theologian say that?

3) Dedication to following the whole Torah, as applicable to Israel and to Gentiles, but through the “easy yoke” or the “Torah of liberty” of their Teacher Jesus, which emphasized the Spirit of the Biblical Prophets in a restoration of the “True Faith,” the Ancient Paths (Jeremiah 6:16; Matthew 11:28-30; James 2:8-13; Matthew 5:17-18; 9:13; 12:7), from which, by and large, they believed the establishment Jewish groups of 2nd Temple times had departed.

4) Rejection of the “doctrines and traditions” of men, which they believed had been added to the pure Torah of Moses, including scribal alterations of the texts of Scripture (Jeremiah 8:8).

link

 

[posthuman]

4) Rejection of the “doctrines and traditions” of men, which they believed had been added to the pure Torah of Moses, including scribal alterations of the texts of Scripture (Jeremiah 8:8).

are you saying you think this is why Justin Martyr said what i quoted?

i don't think that jives with his own explanation.

Is there any other matter, my friends, in which we are blamed, than this, that we live not after the law, and are not circumcised in the flesh as your forefathers were, and do not observe sabbaths as you do? Are our lives and customs also slandered among you? And I ask this: have you also believed concerning us, that we eat men; and that after the feast, having extinguished the lights, we engage in promiscuous concubinage? Or do you condemn us in this alone, that we adhere to such tenets, and believe in an opinion, untrue, as you think? ​

Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter X​

 

[posthuman]

4) Rejection of the “doctrines and traditions” of men, which they believed had been added to the pure Torah of Moses, including scribal alterations of the texts of Scripture (Jeremiah 8:8).

do you think the feasts and the sabbaths and circumcision are all corruptions of the OT and aren't from God but added later by men?
are you one of those people who don't trust the Bible?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

The church today says that the Sabbath was cancelled. As proof they tell of Mary’s discovery of the risen Christ on Sunday. It doesn’t make sense that the time of a discovery should change what God tells us He created on the seventh day, or that a time of discovering something establishes when it happened, but that is the way they think.

The Lord gave us a new covenant, one we are told makes the old covenant obsolete. The church tells us that God knew he make a mistake so he cancelled the old covenant. I guess they think that God is like them and they know they make mistakes so they say so does the Lord. As if the Lord was just another human.

The church goes on and on about the mistakes the Lord has made. They say the sacrificial system didn’t work at all for atonement of sin even though scripture tells us it did. When the blood of cattle was used to feed the Lord, like pagans fed idols and not as a symbol of Christ, God hated it so the church tells us it was a mistake of the Lord to establish it.

The church tells us OT scripture can be in error. OT scripture tells us that God guides us to praise and celebrate His plan of salvation for us with feasts for all generations. The church tells us that is an error, that the feasts are to be treated the same way cutting the foreskin is treated.

Scripture tells us to celebrate Christ with Passover, the church says God cancelled that. They made up a new way to do it and named it using pagan gods to inspire them to make up a name for this replacement.

Demons are attracted to the church, undermining it is undermining the Lord. They have done a mighty work, they will still fail in the end.

Those who worship on the sabbath deny the Risen Christ in came in the flesh. Those are led by the spirit of the antichrist.

 

[laymen]

you sure seem to always try to avoid answering in a straightforward manner

to see if you are a judeaizer or not.

to see if you are telling the truth that only belief and trust in Christ saves, or see if you are pushing Christ + Law, which is a lie.

Ok. You just came across rude and combative. I am not here for that. So I feel no need to answer you.

 

[gb9]

Ok. You just came across rude and combative. I am not here for that. So I feel no need to answer you.

you had no intention of answering anyway.

 

[laymen]

you had no intention of answering anyway.

Rude! How old are you?

 

[laymen]

you had no intention of answering anyway.

I prayed about it and for the sake of everyone the Answer is "no" I do not believe keeping the Sabbath will save you.
Now having said that it does not take away the importance of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was "given for man"
to enjoy. To come together with other believers. I believe in the Sabbath because it reminds me that I worship something better than just a moral guidance but a God that can "create" and he can "create" a new heart in us. A God that can create the world and all that is in it in just 7 days

Now if he can do that then he can creat a new heart in all men.

let the Sabbath bashing start. witch is what I was trying to avoid. was not avoiding you per say but the way you come across as an "Accuser" and only look to twist my words.

 

[Blik]

another example from Justin Martyr, ~ 155 AD

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts?​

Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII​

​

now, one could say ((and an SDA or Judaizer would certainly say)), well he is an heretic and dismiss his argument.
that's a different topic -- but there is no way to read this and still cling to the idea that Christians were all keeping sabbaths and meeting on sabbaths until Constantine. it's my intent by posting this to establish that; arguing over whether we ought to observe sabbath and prevent ourselves from meeting on the 8th day is an whole other argument, but let's not fall into the rampant conspiratorial re-writing of history that certain cults engage in.

I am one of the persons you claim is of a cult because I believe that the Lord established a Sabbath on the last day of the week. I also believe that some Christians (not cults) can be defined by their believe and use of Christ, not by the day they go to church. If fact I would say that because you throw slams at devote Christians by calling them a cult, that you are eliminating yourself as living the life of a Christian under Christ. If you were under Christ, you would give yours sins to Christ for forgiveness and want to be righteous, as you accept the righteousness Christ gives and would not want to act contrary to Christ. Christ would not define people according to the day they went to synagogue, if all synagogues opened on Sunday instead of Saturday.

 

[laymen]

Well that did not take long...Shakes head

 

[posthuman]

I am one of the persons you claim is of a cult because I believe that the Lord established a Sabbath on the last day of the week. I also believe that some Christians (not cults) can be defined by their believe and use of Christ, not by the day they go to church. If fact I would say that because you throw slams at devote Christians by calling them a cult, that you are eliminating yourself as living the life of a Christian under Christ. If you were under Christ, you would give yours sins to Christ for forgiveness and want to be righteous, as you accept the righteousness Christ gives and would not want to act contrary to Christ. Christ would not define people according to the day they went to synagogue, if all synagogues opened on Sunday instead of Saturday.

i am not presently arguing whether one should keep sabbath or not.

what i am saying is that the thing which is cultic is perverting the actual history of the church, arguing that the pope or Constantine 'changed' the day Christians traditionally met. that is not true

I will make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. For that reason, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day on which Jesus rose again from the dead.​

Barnabas 15:8-9, ~ 100AD

The seventh day is proclaimed a day of rest, preparing by abstention from evil for the Primal day, our true rest.
- Clement of Alexandria ~ 190AD

We solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath
Tertullian's Apology, Ch 16 ~ 200AD
​

all the early church writings we have, hundreds of years prior to the council at Nicene, demonstrate that Christians had the tradition of meeting on the 8th day, calling it the Lord's day, and believing it - the day of the feast of firstfruits - is the day Christ rose.

what is cultic is quoting people from the 1900's about whether Believers in the 100's met on the 7th vs. the 8th
when we have actual writings from actual Christians in the first 3 centuries unquestionably proving the opposite.



i am not arguing the rightness or wrongness of 7th days.
i am showing you that the church has always observed the 8th.

 

[Benadam]

oh my gosh,
first of all, where are your 'scriptures for this statement'???

Matthew 16 18-19
18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”