Can someone lose their salvation?

[livingbygrace]

Great stuff! I for one do not advocate any form of Christian perfection either, There is only one who is perfect and His name is Jesus. It appears to me that the only one here boasting some form of perfection is Zone & Red33, a form of perfect bi-polar salvation where a believer can not sin because God ignores sin after salvation which has no scriptural basis what so ever. If that were true there would be no need for sanctification which scripture advocates in great detail.

.

This will probably not be accepted by those who make 'head theology' their life, or those who just know the literal words of scripture inside out

I believe that when a person is saved they have much sin that binds them, deep rooted sin that needs dealing with. They themselves cannot stop this sin it is too ingrained in their life, but they desperately weant to be free of it, but they are as yet without strength

God's good laws that he would have them keep have been written on their hearts and minds, meaning that in their hearts they want to live as God would have them live

So someone comes to God, they are an alcoholic. They accept Christ into their l.ife as Lord and Saviour, but cannot immediately stop drinking. Some people are immedciately healed of much, but the majority have to learn of victory by faith in Christ in most issues in their life

So the convert still drinks, they hate the fact they are drinking, but steadfastly look to Christ and trust him, standing on faith in him their one and only righteousness for Heaven, and they can rejoice in their salvation, despite the fact they are at this time without the strength to stop drinking
And as they steadfastly look to Christ, clinging to him as a limpet to a rock they MUST after a time see complete victory over the alcohol by faith in Christ and the sanctification of the Spirit

Now, during this time of standing by faith in Christ I do not believe God will hold it against the person for drinking, FOR IN THEIR HEART THEY WANT TO BE FREE. But they have to learn the basics of the faith, standing in their one and only righteousness for Heaven, Christ who sets them free of what binds them.

But once they have been set free of drinking and it is no longer their master, if they choose to wilfully go and get drunk when they do not have to because Christ has set them free that is a very different situation

In these circumstances they will need to come before God in deep repentance for what they have done, whereas before the battle was not to give up, believing they were not good enough for God.

But to hear some talk Christ is not able to deliver many from their sin, they are just left wallowing in it.

 

[zone]

I don't even agree with this. One can be a prodigal son. They have turned away, but they are still children. who went into the world, Yet God brings them back when they lose everything they left with. I was one of these before I know how hard Gods chastening can be to bring on back. But this is not the same as a person who walks away and does not believe anymore. Or as a friend of mine says, Gives God the finger and says I don;t believe you anymore., That would be antichrist. And john states they never were saved.

I agree. But remember there is a difference between a prodigal son (who is still a son by the way0 And a person who walks away and no longer believes.

good post
(Daniel 9 is fulfilled)

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

There is no power because there was no true repentnace. And thus no true salvation. All you had was lip service.

Again, you words has indicted the vast majority of believers in western society today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is Jesus Christ, who shed His blood and paid for our sins through His death, burial and resurrection any different after we have been saved by grace through faith then when we were being drawn to Him for salvation?

We are instructed by the Holy Spirit to the following in (Col 2:6,7)...

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught , abounding therein with thanksgiving.

We received the Lord Jesus Christ by grace through faith for salvation (Eph 2:8,9). This is what the scriptures teach us through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I am thankful that we can continue to walk in the grace of God that brought us God's great salvation, the forgiveness and cleansing of sin and complete justification that can not be nullified by any personal sin. This grace that we receive does not encourage us in sin but encourages us in the faith of Jesus Christ and to walk in the light without condemnation or any striving in the flesh.

If we looked at repentance as something that we are granted by grace (Ats 5:31, 11:18) instead of some mood of sincerity that we feel we must be exercised in, we would then see the goodness of God and not feel like we need to condemn or accuse others of antinomianism or have to make things right through a repentance that comes from guilt in the conscience and not from the conviction of the Holy Spirit through grace. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit of grace and conviction (Heb 10:29, Jn 6:18).

The problem is many thing repentnace is just a feeling or a mood. While they claim to have repented. they have realy not. This is shown by the lack of changed life. They continue to live like they did before, and see nothing wrong with it. These people have never repented.

Repentance is a true change of heart. and admition with humility you have sinned against God. You are guilty of his law, and deserving of eternal damnation. And that this guilt is not redeemable by our own merit (thus wher ehumility must come in) but only through the work of Christ on the cross.

If you have truly repented in this way. You will change your life (not become sinless, but start to show an attitude of regret and admition the things you are doing are sins against God) and look for help to overcome those sin issues. You will not go on living like it is ok to sin as much as you want. Gods grace is sufficient (an excuse to sin) knowing internally you never agreed with God that it was sin in the first place. It is all a lie!

 

[zone]

I couldn't help but notice both zone & Red 33 jumped on my last comments. I can't read their posts so I just thought I'd clarify on a point I made earlier so that they can not attempt to use my words against me.

Yes I do believe that Christ's finished work on the cross is indeed perfect for the remission of sins and the redemption of those who believe Without it, none of us have hope. However, I believe that scripture teaches that the work of salvation is both a finished work and on ongoing process. It is the work of the Spirit in our lives, not the work of men. The reason why God did so is for the sake of relationship with us so that we would learn to place our trust in him and how to fellowship with him. That was His entire purpose of creating mankind in the first place, RELATIONSHIP.

i didn't realize you had me on ignore.
(sorry for wasting my time).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, you words has indicted the vast majority of believers in western society today.

Well it is exactly what the Apostle john said. Exactly what Paul said would be of those who dop not have faith. And exactly what James claimed in his epistle. If you say you have faith. But have no works, your faith is dead.

A dead faith has no life, it is no faith at all. No faith equals no salvation.

The problem is not what I said. the problem is miscongruing what I said. I am not a licentious believer. that one can say a few words and be saved. This is a lie directly from hell!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

good post
(Daniel 9 is fulfilled)

lol, thanks.. And thats ok. We will see when they start building the temple again. Even worst when the man of sin enters the holy of holies and commits the abomination

But until then.,. all we have is speculation

 

[Red33]

You are way off here.

Rom 7:14

We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey, whether YOU ARE SLAVES TO SIN WHICH LEADS TO DEATH, or to obediance which leads to righteousness

Rom 6:15&16

So, according to your understanding of Rom ch 7, Paul by what he says in ch 6 is living a life that leads to death, not one of obediance that leads to righteousness, therefore Paul is doomed

I will await your further understanding and explanation of these verses, I am sure you will not disappoint me!

How many times is it going to take. GRACE DOES NOT PROMOTE SIN ! However, if we sin we have an advocate, Jesus Christ the righteous...

1Jn 2:1,2 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin , we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

As our advocate (or attorney) He pleads our case before God and reminds the Judge that we can not be judged for the same sin twice for that would be double-jeopardy. Christ was judged for ALL our sin, once and for ALL on the tree, and when we sin we can not be judged for it. This does not make us desire to take advantage but to be thankful. As our advocate He pleads our case in the court of heaven and to let that court know that the penalty for sin has been paid for through His own death and the sinner has been justified and the Judge has no option by to reach the verdict of NOT GUILTY !

That befuddles human comprehension concerning man's desire for justice. Anyone that does not want to be gracious or merciful toward sinners or toward their brother who sins, wants them to pay for their sins to make them aware that they can't get away with it. God will chasten and discipline those that are His children but He will not judge them for sin when He has already judged His Son for their sin.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

This will probably not be accepted by those who make 'head theology' their life, or those who just know the literal words of scripture inside out

I believe that when a person is saved they have much sin that binds them, deep rooted sin that needs dealing with. They themselves cannot stop this sin it is too ingrained in their life, but they desperately weant to be free of it, but they are as yet without strength

God's good laws that he would have them keep have been written on their hearts and minds, meaning that in their hearts they want to live as God would have them live

So someone comes to God, they are an alcoholic. They accept Christ into their l.ife as Lord and Saviour, but cannot immediately stop drinking. Some people are immedciately healed of much, but the majority have to learn of victory by faith in Christ in most issues in their life

So the convert still drinks, they hate the fact they are drinking, but steadfastly look to Christ and trust him, standing on faith in him their one and only righteousness for Heaven, and they can rejoice in their salvation, despite the fact they are at this time without the strength to stop drinking
And as they steadfastly look to Christ, clinging to him as a limpet to a rock they MUST after a time see complete victory over the alcohol by faith in Christ and the sanctification of the Spirit

Now, during this time of standing by faith in Christ I do not believe God will hold it against the person for drinking, FOR IN THEIR HEART THEY WANT TO BE FREE. But they have to learn the basics of the faith, standing in their one and only righteousness for Heaven, Christ who sets them free of what binds them.

But once they have been set free of drinking and it is no longer their master, if they choose to wilfully go and get drunk when they do not have to because Christ has set them free that is a very different situation

In these circumstances they will need to come before God in deep repentance for what they have done, whereas before the battle was not to give up, believing they were not good enough for God.

But to hear some talk Christ is not able to deliver many from their sin, they are just left wallowing in it.

Very true. Which is why I prefer to use the term "one can not be free from sin while enslaved by sin" rather than "one can not be saved in sin" however, in dealing with Antinomians, I'm sure you can see why I still use the later of the two phrases. I do believe that both sin and repentance are more than a single axt or deed, both are a condition of the heart.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How many times is it going to take. GRACE DOES NOT PROMOTE SIN ! However, if we sin we have an advocate, Jesus Christ the righteous...

1Jn 2:1,2 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin , we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

As our advocate (or attorney) He pleads our case before God and reminds the Judge that we can not be judged for the same sin twice for that would be double-jeopardy. Christ was judged for ALL our sin, once and for ALL on the tree, and when we sin we can not be judged for it. This does not make us desire to take advantage but to be thankful. As our advocate He pleads our case in the court of heaven and to let that court know that the penalty for sin has been paid for through His own death and the sinner has been justified and the Judge has no option by to reach the verdict of NOT GUILTY !

That befuddles human comprehension concerning man's desire for justice. Anyone that does not want to be gracious or merciful toward sinners or toward their brother who sins, wants them to pay for their sins to make them aware that they can't get away with it. God will chasten and discipline those that are His children but He will not judge them for sin when He has already judged His Son for their sin.

Not to be rude here.

1. You are correct in what you wrote. I agree.

2. Where we disagree is that a person who claims to be saved on day. and then for ten straight years still beats his wife and kids, and still gets drunk on a daily basis ever had true repentance. Not onlyu this, he definately is not getting chastened by the HS. or he would have shown some change. As scripture says, a person who is not chastened is illegitament and not a true child.

 

[zone]

lol, thanks.. And thats ok. We will see when they start building the temple again. Even worst when the man of sin enters the holy of holies and commits the abomination

But until then.,. all we have is speculation

but those things don't have anything to do with Daniel 9.
if the son of perdition enters a rebuilt temple, that has nothing to do with Jesus fulfilling Daniel 9.

anyways: the camp (assembly) of the beloved saints is not earthly jerusalem (excepting christians who are there). christians are going to be rounded up worldwide EG.

when fire comes down from heaven to destroy those who are killing the saints, that's the Second Advent (see 2 Thess 2)

anyways....i'll start another thread on this maybe

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

lol, thanks.. And thats ok. We will see when they start building the temple again. Even worst when the man of sin enters the holy of holies and commits the abomination

But until then.,. all we have is speculation

*shaking head*

No one here is advocating sacrificing animals for the remission of sins. For Zone to even bring that up in this conversation reveals her own haughtiness.

 

[zone]

Not to be rude here.

1. You are correct in what you wrote. I agree.

2. Where we disagree is that a person who claims to be saved on day. and then for ten straight years still beats his wife and kids, and still gets drunk on a daily basis ever had true repentance. Not onlyu this, he definately is not getting chastened by the HS. or he would have shown some change. As scripture says, a person who is not chastened is illegitament and not a true child.

we all agree EG. the 10 year person is a strawman set up by someone to keep Red distracted. how can anybody know the details of the strawman's life or heart (since he doesn't have either)?

i wonder how long this guy was gone?

Luke 15
The Parable of the Prodigal Son
11And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out tob one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.

17“But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’c 22But the father said to his servants,d ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

25“Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ 31And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”

~ anyways...that parable isn't even primarily about sinners, but it does tell us clearly how Gracious God is.
its a message to israel.

 

[Red33]

RED33, you have broken the cardinal rule, you have pulled scripture out of context. You can not read Romans chapter 7 without reading Romans Chapter 8. In chapter 7 Paul talks about how man in and of himself can not save himself, also known as depravity (the sin nature). However, in Chapter 8 Paul boldly declares that through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, believers are given the strength to overcome our depravity thus the sin nature no longer dominates but rather the Holy Sapirit now dominates for those who choose to submit to His workings in our lives.

What you teach is a "bi-polar" form of christianity. That all a believer is or ever will be at best is nothing but a sinner saved by grace. That's not entirely true. While we may be so in the beginning of our walk with God, the Holy Spirit gives us the strength and the wisdom to put the deeds of the flesh to death thus we become overcomers. Keep in mind that it is overcomers who are given a garment of white and who inherit the kingdom in the book of Revelation, not carnal christians.

From your neighborhood bi-polar present day Pharisee,

Here is how one overcomes in this life and it is not in the righteousness of the law as some of you have accused me of preaching.

Give me your undivided attention and listen to the inspiration of these verses as they penetrate your hardened heart and shed light in your darkened mind...

1Jn 5:4,5 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 12:11 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rom 12:21 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good (the goodness of God).

Jn 16:33 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer ; I have overcome the world.

 

[Red33]

The problem is many thing repentnace is just a feeling or a mood. While they claim to have repented. they have realy not. This is shown by the lack of changed life. They continue to live like they did before, and see nothing wrong with it. These people have never repented.

What concern is that of ours, we are to walk in the Lord as we have received Him. We are to continue to minister the grace of God in all things and in all matters. It appears to some that grace is being given to coddle the sinning brother but they think this way because they forget that grace saved and restored them when they lived as a wicked sinner and were God's enemy dead in trespases and sins. Their hearts re not established in grace that not only is given to prevent sin but to provide the believer with strength to not continue in sin as they look to Christ.

Repentance is a true change of heart. and admition with humility you have sinned against God. You are guilty of his law, and deserving of eternal damnation. And that this guilt is not redeemable by our own merit (thus wher ehumility must come in) but only through the work of Christ on the cross.

If you have truly repented in this way. You will change your life (not become sinless, but start to show an attitude of regret and admition the things you are doing are sins against God) and look for help to overcome those sin issues. You will not go on living like it is ok to sin as much as you want. Gods grace is sufficient (an excuse to sin) knowing internally you never agreed with God that it was sin in the first place. It is all a lie!

God will not allow those that belong to Him to think and live in the manner that you have described. We have been bought with a price and we are not our own. Whom the Lord loveth He will chasten. You may think that you can get away with sin and that is a carnal attitude and not spiritual. God will chastize His children to make them realize the importance of receiving and growing in the grace of God. Is there anyone that can predict how long that might take in the life of a believer? How long has it taken the Lord with that harlot Israel so far? Has God been lonsuffering with her backsliddings and unbelief?

 

[shroom2]

God will not allow those that belong to Him to think and live in the manner that you have described.

God gave us freedom of will. He will not overstep it, and force us to do, or not do, anything.

God bless.

 

[Red33]

I couldn't help but notice both zone & Red 33 jumped on my last comments. I can't read their posts so I just thought I'd clarify on a point I made earlier so that they can not attempt to use my words against me.

Yes I do believe that Christ's finished work on the cross is indeed perfect for the remission of sins and the redemption of those who believe Without it, none of us have hope. However, I believe that scripture teaches that the work of salvation is both a finished work and on ongoing process. It is both the finished work on the cross as well as the work of the Spirit in our lives, not the work of men. The reason why God did so is for the sake of relationship with us so that we would learn to place our trust in him and how to fellowship with him. That was His entire purpose of creating mankind in the first place, RELATIONSHIP.

Come off it, all it takes to read an ignored post is to uncheck the box, you are not fooling anyone but your are being rather childish. Not bad for being bi-polar, don't you think? Then you write a post like this and from the other side of your tongue you preach that salvation can be forfeited because God has no power to keep those that belong to Him that He has redeemed and purged them from their old sin. All sin to God is old sin becomes it comes from the old sin nature of the old man Adam. Don't you know that yet in all of your Bible study? Shame on you if you don't and shame on me if I buy what you preach.

 

[Red33]

God gave us freedom of will. He will not overstep it, and force us to do, or not do, anything.

God bless.

What is the purpose of chastening the believer if it does not attempt to bend the volition of the believer in the right direction from where he was headed?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

but those things don't have anything to do with Daniel 9.
if the son of perdition enters a rebuilt temple, that has nothing to do with Jesus fulfilling Daniel 9.

anyways: the camp (assembly) of the beloved saints is not earthly jerusalem (excepting christians who are there). christians are going to be rounded up worldwide EG.

when fire comes down from heaven to destroy those who are killing the saints, that's the Second Advent (see 2 Thess 2)

anyways....i'll start another thread on this maybe

lol. There is a diference between jesus fulfilling dan 9 and all that daniel 9 being fulfilled

But it is fun discussing anyway

 

[eternally-gratefull]

we all agree EG. the 10 year person is a strawman set up by someone to keep Red distracted. how can anybody know the details of the strawman's life or heart (since he doesn't have either)?

i wonder how long this guy was gone?

Luke 15
The Parable of the Prodigal Son
11And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out tob one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.

17“But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’c 22But the father said to his servants,d ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

25“Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ 31And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”

~ anyways...that parable isn't even primarily about sinners, but it does tell us clearly how Gracious God is.
its a message to israel.

I am not sure I would call it a strawman. I think he is just trying to get red to answer. Which I have yet to see red do.

That parable you showed. The kid was a child living in his fathers house. probably abaying what his father said until he left. The point is, he was a son when he was home, He was a son when he left. And he was a son when he returned. He never stopped being the son, nor did the father stop being the father.

The man that beat his wife never did what the father asked from what I can see. thus he never lived in his fathers house.

I am trying to show a difference between a licentious belief and a true faith. Which to be honest. I do not even know what red believes in, after everything I have read from him..