Today’s church’s misunderstandings

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Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#621
Dec 6, 2016
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#621
mustaphadrink said:
Having done an extensive study of the the New Testament Church, I must need go by the evidence. The Way, as the NTC was known as was mainy composed of jews who still followed the Jewish custom and feasts. One of them was to meet on the Sabbath. it was unknown to meet on Sunday. In addition they met daily in homes to share meals together, for the appostles teaching, for prayer and fellowship. At no time did they meet together for the eucharist/lord's table/communion. There were no christians in the NTC.

No instruction was needed abut the day of meeting because they autmatically being Jews met on the Sabbath (Saturday) when all the other Jews met.
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In the same way, ex idol worshippers met on the day they had always met. They formerly met on Sunday to worship the sun god.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#622
Jul 31, 2013
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#622
Blik said:
You changed what I wrote completely with your "pagans kept their own version". I said nothing of the kind. How could pagans keep their version of believing in idols if they accepted Christ? n
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you said:

Blik said:
It is true that pagans converted to Christianity before Constantine also kept to their practice of making Sunday their sabbath, but it was Constantine that made it law.
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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#623
Jul 31, 2013
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#623
Blik said:
In the same way, ex idol worshippers met on the day they had always met. They formerly met on Sunday to worship the sun god.
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can you show me any historical evidence of this?
like, even one source older than the 1920's?

i have showed you multiple Christian sources dating from hundreds of years before Constantine unquestionably demonstrating that Christians met regularly on the 8th day because the 8th day is the day Christ rose. they did not call it 'Christian sabbath' they called it 'the Lord's day'
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#624
Jul 31, 2013
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#624
mustaphadrink said:
Having done an extensive study of the the New Testament Church, I must need go by the evidence. The Way, as the NTC was known as was mainy composed of jews who still followed the Jewish custom and feasts. One of them was to meet on the Sabbath. it was unknown to meet on Sunday. In addition they met daily in homes to share meals together, for the appostles teaching, for prayer and fellowship. At no time did they meet together for the eucharist/lord's table/communion. There were no christians in the NTC.

No instruction was needed abut the day of meeting because they autmatically being Jews met on the Sabbath (Saturday) when all the other Jews met.
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can you please post the evidence, so we're not just hearing your opinion, but actual fact?

what early church writings say Christians met on the 7th day and not the 8th? please cite them.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#625
Jul 31, 2013
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#625
Blik said:
Do you think the new covenant (new commandment) is telling us to go to church on Sunday?
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'do not forsake the assembling'

  • firstfruits: an 8th day ((Leviticus 23:9-12))
    • this is the day the LORD chose to rise from the dead
  • pentecost: an 8th day ((Leviticus 23:15-16))
    • this is the day the LORD chose to pour out the Spirit

  • Didache ~ 70AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • letter of Barnabas ~ 74AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Ignatius of Antioch ~ 100AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Justin Martyr ~ 150AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • acts of Peter ~ 180AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Clement of Alexandria ~ 190AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Bardesanes ~200AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Tertullian ~ 200AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Origen ~220AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • the Didascalia ~225AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Cyprian ~ 250AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Ignatius ~ 250AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Peter archbishop of Alexandria ~250AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Victorinus ~ 300AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Eusebius ~ 300AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#626
Jul 31, 2013
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#626
Colossians 2 -- feasts, sabbaths, diet and festivals are shadows only but Christ is the substance; let no one judge you over them.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#627
Jul 31, 2013
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#627
posthuman said:
  • Didache ~ 70AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • letter of Barnabas ~ 74AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Ignatius of Antioch ~ 100AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Justin Martyr ~ 150AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • acts of Peter ~ 180AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Clement of Alexandria ~ 190AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Bardesanes ~200AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Tertullian ~ 200AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Origen ~220AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • the Didascalia ~225AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Cyprian ~ 250AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Ignatius ~ 250AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Peter archbishop of Alexandria ~250AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Victorinus ~ 300AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day

  • Eusebius ~ 300AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
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@Blik @mustaphadrink

here are 15 pre-Nicene Christian sources demonstrating without controversy that the custom of believers in Christ was to meet on the 8th day for worship.
here is where you can find their writings both in the original languages and English translations:
https://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/25_20_25-_Rerum_Conspectus_Pro_Auctoribus_Ordinatus.html

these are not pagan sources. their justifications are from the scripture, not from 'previous pagan habits'


please give me even one single source prior to the 19th century that demonstrates anything to the contrary.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#629
Jul 31, 2013
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#629
Blik said:
In the same way, ex idol worshippers met on the day they had always met. They formerly met on Sunday to worship the sun god.
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who told you that?
where is the evidence for that?
show me.

Greeks & Romans didn't even have a 7-day week until after the spread of Christianity.
their pagan holy days were all annual, once-a-year events.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#630
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#630
here's the earliest writing i found that says 8th-day worship assembly has pagan origins:

The-Paganism-in-Our-Christianity.jpg

this was published in 1928

the author says ((without any historical documentation)) that sunday was a pagan worship day.
the author also says that sabbath has pagan origins.
the author also says that Jesus didn't die.
the author also says that Jesus didn't perform any miracles.
the author also says that Jesus wasn't born of a virgin.

((source: https://truthsnitch.com/2018/08/17/refuting-the-pagan-origins-of-the-lords-day-myth-part-1-did-pagans-celebrate-a-weekly-festival-on-sunday/#sthash.X4BuXW1z.Ppadt5Vw.dpbs))


is this y'alls 'historical source' @Blik @mustaphadrink ?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#631
Jul 31, 2013
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#631
posthuman said:
the idea that Christians didn't meet on the 8th day until Constantine or the pope 'changed the traditions' is a misunderstanding in the church.

that's an idea originally pushed by SDA who call worshiping God on any day other than saturday 'the mark of the beast'
and more recently by what's collectively called 'Hebrew roots' movement.

the truth is that the church has since the beginning met on the 8th day, called it the Lord's day, and believed from scripture that Christ rose on this day, and that we ought to allow no one to judge us over sabbaths, feasts, meats or festivals -- which things are only shadows.
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just want to reiterate that i am not trying to argue against remembering the sabbath and i am not trying to argue that some certain day is approved and no other is for worship.
i am certainly not trying to argue that sunday is 'Christian sabbath' that idea is ludicrous.

what i am doing is trying to establish that the idea Constantine/some-pope-or-other 'changed' the sabbath at the Nicene council is rubbish. that is a modern myth / misunderstanding in the church originating with SDA works-religion heresy & ((AFAIK)) a blatant attempt at revisionist history.

what i am doing is letting the truth be known that from the earliest records of the church forward, all the way up until SDA appeared in the 19th century, it has been the custom of believers to meet on the 8th day, based not on previous-pagan-habits but soundly on the scripture calling this day 'the Lord's day' and the fact that it is the day upon which Christ rose.

Firstfruits, an 8th day
Pentecost, an 8th day
 
Kolistus

Kolistus

Well-known member
#632
Feb 3, 2020
538
276
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#632
Blik said:
The church today says that the Sabbath was cancelled. As proof they tell of Mary’s discovery of the risen Christ on Sunday. It doesn’t make sense that the time of a discovery should change what God tells us He created on the seventh day, or that a time of discovering something establishes when it happened, but that is the way they think.

The Lord gave us a new covenant, one we are told makes the old covenant obsolete. The church tells us that God knew he make a mistake so he cancelled the old covenant. I guess they think that God is like them and they know they make mistakes so they say so does the Lord. As if the Lord was just another human.

The church goes on and on about the mistakes the Lord has made. They say the sacrificial system didn’t work at all for atonement of sin even though scripture tells us it did. When the blood of cattle was used to feed the Lord, like pagans fed idols and not as a symbol of Christ, God hated it so the church tells us it was a mistake of the Lord to establish it.

The church tells us OT scripture can be in error. OT scripture tells us that God guides us to praise and celebrate His plan of salvation for us with feasts for all generations. The church tells us that is an error, that the feasts are to be treated the same way cutting the foreskin is treated.

Scripture tells us to celebrate Christ with Passover, the church says God cancelled that. They made up a new way to do it and named it using pagan gods to inspire them to make up a name for this replacement.

Demons are attracted to the church, undermining it is undermining the Lord. They have done a mighty work, they will still fail in the end.
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Where do you draw the line? Do you believe circumcision is for the Church today? If not, why not? It is an everlasting covenant made with Abraham after all, renewed through Moses.

If the sacrificial system worked so well, why did Jesus die?
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#633
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#633
posthuman said:
'do not forsake the assembling'

  • firstfruits: an 8th day ((Leviticus 23:9-12))
    • this is the day the LORD chose to rise from the dead
  • pentecost: an 8th day ((Leviticus 23:15-16))
    • this is the day the LORD chose to pour out the Spirit

  • Didache ~ 70AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • letter of Barnabas ~ 74AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Ignatius of Antioch ~ 100AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Justin Martyr ~ 150AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • acts of Peter ~ 180AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Clement of Alexandria ~ 190AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Bardesanes ~200AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Tertullian ~ 200AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Origen ~220AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • the Didascalia ~225AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Cyprian ~ 250AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Ignatius ~ 250AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Peter archbishop of Alexandria ~250AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Victorinus ~ 300AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
  • Eusebius ~ 300AD
    • the custom of believers was to meet on the 8th day
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I agree with you. If we insisted we would only have church on Saturday it would be forsaking the assembling, for most of our churches meet on Sunday. The day we go to church has no affect on our salvation, but to say we will not assemble with other Christians, but judge them based on the day they choose for church would.

I don't think you are right about your insistence about what the early church did. Acts tells us that many Christians practiced Judaism.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#634
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#634
Blik said:
I don't think you are right about your insistence about what the early church did. Acts tells us that many Christians practiced Judaism.
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Acts, Hebrews, Colossians and particularly Galatians all also tell us they were wrong to do so.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#635
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#635
Blik said:
I don't think you are right about your insistence about what the early church did.
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Show me whatever evidence there is that the church worshipped on the 7th day not the 8th before the Nicene council.

If there is any, I have never seen it.
 
L

lenna

Guest
#636
#636
AlmondJoy said:
that God had a reason for the laws and feast days etc in the Old Testament.....he certainly didn't make a mistake.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament

why argue over what day we worship on.......we should worship everyday
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well AlmondJoy (good bars by the way), you are absolutely correct. but when you have Hebrew Roots adherents, they become embittered if you dare to touch their sacred day

and yes, God is available for us to worship Him every
..................................................................................................single
...................................................................................................day
 
L

lenna

Guest
#637
#637
Dino246 said:
Again, you have paraphrased someone's words and completely misrepresented them. Why do you keep doing this?
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well, that would be because if she does not do that, then the entire argument for OT law will fold

I mean it has folded anyway, but some folks don't know when they are so far from scripture, they have basically made a new religion based on their choice of law, day and feasts etc

at least the animals seem to have some relief from sacrifice (sad humor)
 
L

lenna

Guest
#638
#638
laymen said:
so you would rather follow tradition rather than God? Paul says follow me as I follow Christ it was Christ’s custom to keep the Sabbath it was Paul’s custom so should it be ours. Regardless of who changed it, it was changed only in ignorance. And what I mean by changed is he set the decree. Anyways man cannot change God‘s laws.
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well who is following tradition, pretending to be an Israelite in ancient Israel?

and to top that off, you even mention 'Paul's custom'

did you loose Jesus along the way? Paul said to follow Jesus
smh

men do not have to change God's laws. but like the Pharisees, some of them seem to delight in making new ones

the ignorance you speak of, is failing to understand that Jesus has made a new way and He is the final sacrifice. He is our High Priest and no further adherence to law is needed. As it is, He summed up the 10 anyway in what He called 'new' commandments

as has been noted, you are also quite good at twisting what others say . when you folks do this, you throw off the conversation and cause people to attempt to correct your interpretation of what they actually said. this works for you, as in this manner, you constantly delay the actual discussion which should be centered on scripture and instead, corrupt both scripture and people's posts

old old story. worked for Pharisees and works for you guys too

this is a serious departure from truth and honesty
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#639
Jul 31, 2013
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#639
Blik said:
If you say the Christ cancelled the old rules and gave new ones, then you are saying that Christ has taken away the power of the old God and is a new God for us.
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Is that what you think happened when God gave Noah all living creatures as food, instead of only vegetables as He had previously given?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#640
Jun 30, 2015
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#640
posthuman said:
Is that what you think happened when God gave Noah all living creatures as food, instead of only vegetables as He had previously given?
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A God Who enacts different "rules" at different times (for different purposes!) doesn't fit in her box. ;)
 
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