The Post Tribulation Rapture

[BenjaminN]

Aaaahhhh. All is revealed. I say, "SON of Jacob", and you answer, "BROTHER of Jacob" - a world of difference.

If you are a "son of Jacob" you are an Israelite with Jacob as your father. If you are a "brother of Jacob" you are a member of the New Man wih God as your Father. To be in the Kingdom - as you rightly allude to, you need a New Birth. But then the matter even eluded Nicodemus - a searcher of the truth and a man with a top education in God's Word.

Gentile believers is composed of Ephraimites (sons of Jacob), and non-Ephraimites, their adopted brothers in Jacob's of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, the Body of Christ / Messiah.

For Ephraimites (among the Gentiles and associated as being Gentile non-Jews):
(Jews identified as Judah/Benjamin and Levi is not associated with the Gentiles):


Hebrews 8 (ESV)

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws ( 613 mitzvot applicable to Ephraimite Gentiles ) into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

For the non-Ephraimite Gentiles:


Acts 15 (ESV)

13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, 17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.' 19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. ( law of 613 mitzvot not applicable to non-Ephraimite Gentiles ) 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."


2 Peter 3 (ESV)

15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people ( Jacob's people renouncing God's 613 mitzvot ) and lose your own stability.

 

[BenjaminN]

The immutable words of God said in the Contract, or Covenant of Law in Leviticus 26:32-39;

32 "And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them."

One does not need a degree in languages to understand these simple threats. And the PREMISE is that those who are scattered "among the heathen" will retain their identity. There will be, in "all nations under the sun" Israelies who (i) live in fear, (ii) who are faint-hearted, (iii) who shake at a leaf falling, (iv) who will perish among the heathen, (v) who will be eaten up by their enemies' land, and (vii) who will will have childen who will also pine away in enemy territory. That is, generations of Israelites will languish in "all nations under the sun" and never lose their identity. The enemies will know them from generation to generation and persecute them.

That is were Ephraim is today. An ethnic group who are scattered among all nations, who live in fear, who are persecuted and who are chastised for all their sins. They do not lose their ethnicity. That is, they remain Jews. They do not integrate with those nations, and they do not become Christians. When the Church is complete, Christ, Chiefest of Jews, will return (Act.15:14-16) and Ezekiel 37 will be fulfilled. They NEVER believe in Jesus. God has concluded them ALL in UNBELIEF (Rom.11:32). Ungodliness in Israel is only turned at the end of the 70th Week of Daniel - not now. Ungodliness among the Jews will only be turned when their Messiah RETURNS. Hosea 6:2 says that Israel's chastisement lasts two days. Only in the third day are they raised up as a nation again. Since Israel has been dispersed since 70 AD, the two days must mean 2 X 1,000 years (Ps.90:4, 2nd Pet 3:8). The third day is the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus - or, the Messianic age.

1. Israel, or Judah, or both, NEVER embrace Jesus Christ UNTIL HE appears out of the clouds.
2. Israel, or Judah, or both, are not restored to their Land until our Lord Jesus kicks the Gentiles out of it at Armageddon
3. Israel, or Judah, or both, do not receive the New Covenant until they are resurrected and reunited in their Land
4. The New Covenant is one of Law (Jer.31:33)
5. The New Covenant is NOT written in Christ's blood. It is RATIFIED by Chris's blood
6. The New Covenant is WRITTEN inside the Israelite who is restored when Christ comes
7. Israel's last act in this age is to EMBRACE the Beast - a Gentile king. Their darkest hour is yet to come
8. Israel are the seed of Israel whose earlier name was Jacob
9. Israel rejected Jesus Christ and do reject Him to this day
10. Any Israelite who embraces Jesus Christ CEASES to be an Israelite. His ethnicity is GONE. He is a New Creature. His old LIFE, including his connection to Jacob, is GONE
11. "Messianic Jew" never appears in scripture. It is purely the invention of fallen men. Scripture speaks AGAINST such a concept

You are at a lost "my brother in Jesus Christ / Jeshua ha'Mashiach", you confuse Ephraim to be of the Jews, that is a grave historical mistake. Jews are from the southern kingdom of ancient Israel, and retained their identity when they returned to Judea (southern Israel) from their Babylonian captivity in 597BC, and again returned to the modern "state of Israel" in 1948 after the Jews's (Judah's) Roman diaspora of following Judah's false Messiah, Simon Bar Kokhba's, revolt in 136 A.C when the Jews of Judah got banned from Judea in southern Israel.

Ephraim COMPLETELY lost their identity, to such an extent that we do not have any trace of them in the modern world today. They lost this identity during their Assyrian captivity of 740BC, where they were driven from the land to the four corners of the earth, where they forget the God of there forefathers, became Gentiles, and started to worship idols of wood and stone, as fulfilment of the curse of Deuteronomy 28 (especially verse 64), for breaking God's first covenant. But even this, was part of God's plan for the Gentiles, so that through God's covenant with Abraham, all the nations of the world will be blessed, even by the breaking thereof.

So tell me, when in the history of the world has Ephraim (not Judah - as history tells us they are not the same peoples, after the northern kingdom split from the southern kingdom split, following king Solomon's death. Jews are those of Judah, living in Judea in the southern kingdom, whilst Ephraim (not Jews) were the other, now still lost, to be found in future, ten tribes. Ephraim of today do not know they are Ephraim... or ask Ephraim to stand up, and show me who they are - except for those under God's new covenant, living among us Christians, who are still loving all of God's commandments, as his law has been written on their hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:10):


Deuteronomy 28 (ESV)

64 "And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the Lord will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you. Night and day you shall be in dread and have no assurance of your life. 67 In the morning you shall say, 'If only it were evening!' and at evening you shall say, 'If only it were morning!' because of the dread that your heart shall feel, and the sights that your eyes shall see. 68 And the Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promised that you should never make again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer."


Luke 13 (ESV)

28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob (Judah & Ephraim's father) and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.

 

[Corban]

Gentile believers is composed of Ephraimites (sons of Jacob), and non-Ephraimites, their adopted brothers in Jacob's of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, the Body of Christ / Messiah.

For Ephraimites (among the Gentiles and associated as being Gentile non-Jews):
(Jews identified as Judah/Benjamin and Levi is not associated with the Gentiles):


Hebrews 8 (ESV)

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws ( 613 mitzvot applicable to Ephraimite Gentiles ) into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

For the non-Ephraimite Gentiles:


Acts 15 (ESV)

13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, 17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.' 19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. ( law of 613 mitzvot not applicable to non-Ephraimite Gentiles ) 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."


2 Peter 3 (ESV)

15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people ( Jacob's people renouncing God's 613 mitzvot ) and lose your own stability.

Thank you for your reply. Not one of the scriptures you offered say anything remotely like your first two paragraphs.

I think we've about dealt with this subject. I suggest we agree to differ and take a break. Go well and God bless.

 

[BenjaminN]

Thank you for your reply. Not one of the scriptures you offered say anything remotely like your first two paragraphs.

I think we've about dealt with this subject. I suggest we agree to differ and take a break. Go well and God bless.

I think we are derailing this thread. See my detailed description about the future reuniting of Ephraim among the Gentiles, and Judah among the Jews, with Ephraim and Judah combined making up all the sons of Jacob. For response please reply at the following thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...nce-their-assyrian-captivity-of-740bc.195657/

 

[Corban]

You are at a lost "my brother in Jesus Christ / Jeshua ha'Mashiach", you confuse Ephraim to be of the Jews, that is a grave historical mistake. Jews are from the southern kingdom of ancient Israel, and retained their identity when they returned to Judea (southern Israel) from their Babylonian captivity in 597BC, and again returned to the modern "state of Israel" in 1948 after the Jews's (Judah's) Roman diaspora of following Judah's false Messiah, Simon Bar Kokhba's, revolt in 136 A.C when the Jews of Judah got banned from Judea in southern Israel.

Ephraim COMPLETELY lost their identity, to such an extent that we do not have any trace of them in the modern world today. They lost this identity during their Assyrian captivity of 740BC, where they were driven from the land to the four corners of the earth, where they forget the God of there forefathers, became Gentiles, and started to worship idols of wood and stone, as fulfilment of the curse of Deuteronomy 28 (especially verse 64), for breaking God's first covenant. But even this, was part of God's plan for the Gentiles, so that through God's covenant with Abraham, all the nations of the world will be blessed, even by the breaking thereof.

So tell me, when in the history of the world has Ephraim (not Judah - as history tells us they are not the same peoples, after the northern kingdom split from the southern kingdom split, following king Solomon's death. Jews are those of Judah, living in Judea in the southern kingdom, whilst Ephraim (not Jews) were the other, now still lost, to be found in future, ten tribes. Ephraim of today do not know they are Ephraim... or ask Ephraim to stand up, and show me who they are - except for those under God's new covenant, living among us Christians, who are still loving all of God's commandments, as his law has been written on their hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:10):


Deuteronomy 28 (ESV)

64 "And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the Lord will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you. Night and day you shall be in dread and have no assurance of your life. 67 In the morning you shall say, 'If only it were evening!' and at evening you shall say, 'If only it were morning!' because of the dread that your heart shall feel, and the sights that your eyes shall see. 68 And the Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promised that you should never make again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer."


Luke 13 (ESV)

28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob (Judah & Ephraim's father) and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.

I am familiar with your belief. British Israelism is another similar doctrine. You have made one fatal assumption. You said Ephariam BECAME Gentiles. But in this you missed the Omniscience of God. and His Law of "KIND" in Genesis 1:11-12. HE KNOWS who are seed of Jacob. That's all that counts. You, and ten thousand others may make the claims you do, based on history, but if you are a seed of Israel (Jacob) and you produce an offspring, that Offspring can do what they like, confess what they like, take the Passport they like and speak any language in the world, they are still seed of Jacob. And they can do this for a hundred generations, but the seed of Jacob just keeps its line. Added to this, God made a Covenant with Jacob and his seed - and God does not break Covenants just because a fiftieth generation Israeli lives in Times Square.

 

[BenjaminN]

I am familiar with your belief. British Israelism is another similar doctrine. You have made one fatal assumption. You said Ephariam BECAME Gentiles. But in this you missed the Omniscience of God. and His Law of "KIND" in Genesis 1:11-12. HE KNOWS who are seed of Jacob. That's all that counts. You, and ten thousand others may make the claims you do, based on history, but if you are a seed of Israel (Jacob) and you produce an offspring, that Offspring can do what they like, confess what they like, take the Passport they like and speak any language in the world, they are still seed of Jacob. And they can do this for a hundred generations, but the seed of Jacob just keeps its line. Added to this, God made a Covenant with Jacob and his seed - and God does not break Covenants just because a fiftieth generation Israeli lives in Times Square.

See my reply at:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...nce-their-assyrian-captivity-of-740bc.195657/

We've derailed this thread enough.

 

[Corban]

I think we are derailing this thread. See my detailed description about the future reuniting of Ephraim among the Gentiles, and Judah among the Jews, with Ephraim and Judah combined making up all the sons of Jacob. For response please reply at the following thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...nce-their-assyrian-captivity-of-740bc.195657/

If you'll allow, I'll pass on this one. You are set in your belief. You did not enter into my arguments. And when I presented an argument that you did want to discuss, you brought scriptures that pit themselves against mine. But scripture is harmonious. They must be reconciled - not used against each other. If you want to claim victory - I don't mind. I judge this cause as lost, and we both know what the Lord said about that. "Shake the dust off and move on!"

This is no accusation against you, or your position. It is simply that I believe that we will not reach a solution.

Go well and God bless.

 

[BenjaminN]

If you'll allow, I'll pass on this one. You are set in your belief. You did not enter into my arguments. And when I presented an argument that you did want to discuss, you brought scriptures that pit themselves against mine. But scripture is harmonious. They must be reconciled - not used against each other. If you want to claim victory - I don't mind. I judge this cause as lost, and we both know what the Lord said about that. "Shake the dust off and move on!"

This is no accusation against you, or your position. It is simply that I believe that we will not reach a solution.

Go well and God bless.

God bless you, as Jacob's Gentile brother, in Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach :


1 Corinthians 13 (ESV)

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Luke 13 (ESV)

28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.

OneForChristYeshua

 

[Absolutely]

The verses about the flood is to convey how people that take the mark of the beast will go through the great tribulation, for them it would not be a tribulation at all, they will go about their lives merrily... It is a tribulation for those that know what is happening, like Noah knew what was coming... In Noah's case the judgement was with water, after the tribulation the judgement is with fire, at the next final return of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach.

Nope.
re read it.

it specifically places his coming PRE JUDGEMENT. vivid and clear.

You guys simply can not make the rapture fit the white horses at the end of the gt.
Will not,and can not fit.

Jesus used lot and noah,
i tell you guys over and over,show me a post trib deliverance with lot or noah,

Game
Set
Match

Your theory can not POSSIBLY fit.

2 in a bed,one taken,one left.

you have such an impossible task trying to accept a non believer, with the mark of the beast,sharing a bed with a believer.
totally unplausable.....totally.

 

[Absolutely]

I am pretty sure he did not mean to leave out the rest of the verses - as he was making a point about what precedes it. He was merely pointing to the 'start' of the verses by saying 'verse 40'.


This is merely an extended explanation of the Second Coming and Rapture indicated in verse 30 and 31.

You guys are never going to understand the timeline-of-things as long as you have a prophecy is written in a verse-by-verse-is-chronological way type of thinking.

only if you leave out the shift Jesus makes "...as it was in the days of noah BEFORE THE FLOOD....."

IOW, you,not i,CONTINUALLY leave it out.

Psssst...it aint goin away.

 

[peldom10]

There will be a rapture.

I Thes. 4;16-17

Matt. 24; 30

Acts 1;11

Rev. 3; 10

There are many more references.
If those references are not sufficient then the balance of many more will not help those who doubt the rapture.

It is interesting to note ...not believing in the rapture is one of many ...new, new age religion interpretations of scripture that is absent from the christian writings pre 1960's. I guess some think we got smarter around the '60's.