The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

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BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#61
You say ///
If you are saved then you were elected to be Saved.

If you were elected to be Saved then you will be given perseverence.


The mere fact of knowing that you are Saved by the Lord Jesus is enough to know that you will persevere. Because Salvation is of Christ and not ourselves.//
Which proves my point . its a vicious circle of insecurity . How do you know your one of those elected to be converted? You are saved , you say . How do you know your saved ? because your given to persevere . How do you know you will persevere ? you don't ultimately. In all practical purposes its no different to Arminianism .
Some people think they chose to believe today, and end up atheists tomorrow - if their believe of faith in Christ Yeshua was not the gift of God's grace from the start. If its not your own doing, and you have been saved, rest assured, it's eternal.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#62
Some people think they chose to believe today, and end up atheists tomorrow - if their believe of faith in Christ Yeshua was not the gift of God's grace from the start. If its not your own doing, and you have been saved, rest assured, it's eternal.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Yes through faith . Not works . And I meant believe till receiving Jesus. I don't mean believe without receiving Jesus.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#63
Yes through faith . Not works . And I meant believe till receiving Jesus. I don't mean believe without receiving Jesus.
If you have been saved, it is not by your own doing, it is the gift of God. If you have not received God's gracious gift of faith in Jesus, you will not have eternal believes of Him. The wagon does not go in front of the horses. Faith is an everlasting attribute, not a verb, believe is a verb.

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,322
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#64
Commanding all men everywhere to repent and marvelling at peoples unbelief can only be consistent with the fact that people are able to repent and believe .
Commanding people to repent does not preclude God making it possible, without forcing us :)
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#65
Death, according to Greek, means "a separation". Separation (death) does not mean everlasting hell, in Deut 30:19, but a separation from our fellowship with God. Choosing life, is choosing to live in fellowship with God, and choosing to attempt to obey his commandments

God has given mankind the choice to live his life as mankind wants to, but mankind has no choice in his eternal deliverance, that is by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.
Ok I t
Death, according to Greek, means "a separation". Separation (death) does not mean everlasting hell, in Deut 30:19, but a separation from our fellowship with God. Choosing life, is choosing to live in fellowship with God, and choosing to attempt to obey his commandments

God has given mankind the choice to live his life as mankind wants to, but mankind has no choice in his eternal deliverance, that is by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.
Yeah upon re reading I think I had a brain fart please for my ignorance I may need to grab some more coffee
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#66
Death, according to Greek, means "a separation". Separation (death) does not mean everlasting hell, in Deut 30:19, but a separation from our fellowship with God. Choosing life, is choosing to live in fellowship with God, and choosing to attempt to obey his commandments

God has given mankind the choice to live his life as mankind wants to, but mankind has no choice in his eternal deliverance, that is by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.
Hell is everlasting separation, devoid of any teeny-tiny-bit, of God's love.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#67
Those whom Christ died for is limited to those that his Father gave him, and he said that he would not lose any of them,

Christ was a sacrifice that was offered to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance.

The regenerated people are given a choice to follow God's commandments, but it is not to get eternal life.
I have only found the term once so far in scripture about regeneration



Titus 3:5-7
King James Version

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So far I haven't found this word relating to people not having eternal life and it is referenced with the holy spirit
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#68
Those whom Christ died for is limited to those that his Father gave him, and he said that he would not lose any of them,

Christ was a sacrifice that was offered to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance.

The regenerated people are given a choice to follow God's commandments, but it is not to get eternal life.
Agreed, after the strike-through.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#69
If you have been saved, it is not by your own doing, it is the gift of God. If you have not received God's gracious gift of faith in Jesus, you will not have eternal believes of Him. The wagon does not go in front of the horses. Faith is an everlasting attribute, not a verb, believe is a verb.

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
so you believe in the doctrine of ' regeneration precedes faith then ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#70
Commanding people to repent does not preclude God making it possible, without forcing us :)
If i tell my kids to tidy there room I tell them because I expect they can do this. I'd be a terrible parent punishing them for telling them to do something they were not able to do .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#73
If you have been saved, it is not by your own doing, it is the gift of God. If you have not received God's gracious gift of faith in Jesus, you will not have eternal believes of Him. The wagon does not go in front of the horses. Faith is an everlasting attribute, not a verb, believe is a verb.

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
8For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith not works . Thats the point of most of the new testament.

Eph 1.13
13¶in whom ye also trusted , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#74

Romans 9 (ESV)


18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
That verse comes with other verses with a context . That context is about the temporary judicial hardening of Israel. The jews are now wondering what's the deal with these Gentiles coming in to the picture without the need to become a proselyte first .
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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#75
so you believe in the doctrine of ' regeneration precedes faith then ?
Faith is an inherent property we are or are not attributed to, by the grace of God, since the foundation of the world. Our actions of belief during our lifetime follows this inherent property of God's gracious gift of faith being eternally present in our lives or not.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#76
If i tell my kids to tidy there room I tell them because I expect they can do this. I'd be a terrible parent punishing them for telling them to do something they were not able to do .
A better analogy would be, If I tell my kids to tidy there room, I tell them because it needs to be done, the room is a mess. However, the kids have no desire to tidy the room, they would rather play. So either you have to do something to change their mind or you will have to do the tidying yourself. Since the kids have no such desire, you are perfectly within your rights to punish them.

Thus, God does not force anyone to repent and believe but gives unto His kids the ABILITY to desire what He wants. This is "Regeneration".
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#77
Faith is an inherent property we are or are not attributed to, by the grace of God, since the foundation of the world. Our actions of belief during our lifetime follows this inherent property of God's gracious gift of faith being eternally present in our lives or not.
That's philosophy.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#78
A better analogy would be, If I tell my kids to tidy there room, I tell them because it needs to be done, the room is a mess. However, the kids have no desire to tidy the room, they would rather play. So either you have to do something to change their mind or you will have to do the tidying yourself. Since the kids have no such desire, you are perfectly within your rights to punish them.

Thus, God does not force anyone to repent and believe but gives unto His kids the ABILITY to desire what He wants. This is "Regeneration".
No my analogy was just fine . If I ask my children to do something they are UNABLE to do, then I punish them for not doing it . This would make me a dreadful parent.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,322
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#79
If i tell my kids to tidy there room I tell them because I expect they can do this. I'd be a terrible parent punishing them for telling them to do something they were not able to do .
And do you tell them to do this when they have no idea what it means? No. You teach them how.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
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#80
That verse comes with other verses with a context . That context is about the temporary judicial hardening of Israel. The jews are now wondering what's the deal with these Gentiles coming in to the picture without the need to become a proselyte first .

Here's the context, these are allegories (about Jacob and Esau, Pharaoh and the Israelites, a potter's molds, vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy) applied universally to even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles:

Romans 9 (ESV)


13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?