John 15 What is it about ?

[throughfaith]

Does John 15 teach that you can forfeit salvation ?

1¶I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5¶I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9¶As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11¶These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

 

[p_rehbein]

You may consider what Matthew Henry said about this Chapter:

(excerpt)

Chapter 15
It is generally agreed that Christ’s discourse in this and the next chapter was at the close of the last supper, the night in which he was betrayed, and it is a continued discourse, not interrupted as that in the foregoing chapter was; and what he chooses to discourse of is very pertinent to the present sad occasion of a farewell sermon. Now that he was about to leave them, I. They would be tempted to leave him, and return to Moses again; and therefore he tells them how necessary it was that they should by faith adhere to him and abide in him. II. They would be tempted to grow strange one to another; and therefore he presses it upon them to love one another, and to keep up that communion when he was gone which had hitherto been their comfort. III. They would be tempted to shrink from their apostleship when they met with hardships; and therefore he prepared them to bear the shock of the world’s ill will. There are four words to which his discourse in this chapter may be reduced; 1. Fruit (v. 1-8). Love (v. 9-17). Hatred (v. 18-25). The Comforter (v. 26, v. 27).


(here)

John 15 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole ...

 

[oldethennew]

we have read Matthew Henry commentary, and we believe that he loved our Lord Jesus -
and we respect and like him for the amount of work that he put into his commentary,
because we believe that it was a 'sincere' work...

ALL Biblical Commentary put before us is challenging our discernment/understanding,
this is a very profound part of our growing/learning process in knowing for sure where
we stand in our Biblical understanding and precise knowledge of our Saviour's Word...

 

[throughfaith]

we have read Matthew Henry commentary, and we believe that he loved our Lord Jesus -
and we respect and like him for the amount of work that he put into his commentary,
because we believe that it was a 'sincere' work...

ALL Biblical Commentary put before us is challenging our discernment/understanding,
this is a very profound part of our growing/learning process in knowing for sure where
we stand in our Biblical understanding and precise knowledge of our Saviour's Word...

But he did hold to Calvinism so its useful to know that is where his mind is at ,when he comments on the bible.

 

[oldethennew]

But he did hold to Calvinism so its useful to know that is where his mind is at ,when he comments on the bible.

==================================================
yes, you are right, 'back-ground' is very important to know when discerning ANY persons Biblical Commentary-
and it is even more important to discern our OWN BACK-GROUND, when we are attempting to discern Biblical Scripture...

 

[throughfaith]

==================================================
yes, you are right, 'back-ground' is very important to know when discerning ANY persons Biblical Commentary-
and it is even more important to discern our OWN BACK-GROUND, when we are attempting to discern Biblical Scripture...

Thats very true .

 

[Corban]

Does John 15 teach that you can forfeit salvation ?

1¶I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5¶I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9¶As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11¶These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). We must investigate what the burden of John's gospel is, as well as looking to nature to tell us what the True Vine is. In nature we know that there are various "kingdoms". We call the lion "king of the beasts" and we refer to the animal kingdom. Among men, we have kingdoms, great and small. And what decides what the kingdom is, is the TYPE OF LIFE that prevails. We would not call king Solomon "the king of the beasts" although technically, all the beasts in Israel were his subjects. The reason we wouldn't say this is that a king is king over his own type of life.

John 20:30-31 lays down the reason why John wrote his gospel.

30 "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

God's plan with His man, Adam, was not to keep a set of Laws or build a monument to Him. It was that a human would eat of the Tree of LIfe and be a man motivated and empowered by divine life. And so, while the synoptic gospels deal with Jesus the Man and His Kingdom on earth, John deals with Jesus as God getting the divine life into man. The synoptic gospels deal with the Olive Tree - Christ's Kingdom which includes the Church and restored Israel. John's gospel deals with men in whom flows the divine sap - the divine life of God - The Kingdom of Life.

So, a Tree being srtictly a Kingdom, being cut off does not mean you lose your status as a branch. What happens is that the branch is (i) distanced from the king, and (ii) is distanced from the enjoyment of the sap. Our Lord Jesus, King of Life, and who gave His Life to believers, wants a return for the Father for this investment. So He threatens men who have this life (for they are already branches) that He wants the appropriate fruits of the sap He provides. And if the branch, after being bestowed with all resources necessary to bear fruit, won't bear fruit, then he is in danger of being removed and burned. Our Lord could not have chosen a better analogy. The wood of a Vine is only good for one thing - bearing fruit. It is no good for construction, it is not good for furniture, it is not even good firewood. In Judges 9 the vine was for one thing - to produce fruit that when processed would "cheer God and man" (Jdg.9:13).

So it is not a matter of losing ones status, or intrinsic nature. It is a matter of using the sap, a precious resource, and bringing no result. The burning is because (i) God is offended (he does not need a heater or a furnace otherwise He would use other wood), and (ii) because it is a testimony of being useless for the intended purpose. The True Vine, unlike the Olive Tree, is made only of men with the same lIFE. It is to produce fruit, not oil for light. It is for God's "cheering", not His "honor". Although it is the Church, it does not picture the Assembly, but it pictures fruitlessness after all resources were invested in you. The disobedient builders in the Church in 1st Corinthians 3 suffer a loss, but are "saved though as by fire". The sinning "brother" of 1st Corinthians Chapter 5 is, cut off from his human LIFE that God's lIFE in his spirit may be preserved. The FIRE is retributive, not dissolutive.

 

[throughfaith]

A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). We must investigate what the burden of John's gospel is, as well as looking to nature to tell us what the True Vine is. In nature we know that there are various "kingdoms". We call the lion "king of the beasts" and we refer to the animal kingdom. Among men, we have kingdoms, great and small. And what decides what the kingdom is, is the TYPE OF LIFE that prevails. We would not call king Solomon "the king of the beasts" although technically, all the beasts in Israel were his subjects. The reason we wouldn't say this is that a king is king over his own type of life.

John 20:30-31 lays down the reason why John wrote his gospel.

30 "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

God's plan with His man, Adam, was not to keep a set of Laws or build a monument to Him. It was that a human would eat of the Tree of LIfe and be a man motivated and empowered by divine life. And so, while the synoptic gospels deal with Jesus the Man and His Kingdom on earth, John deals with Jesus as God getting the divine life into man. The synoptic gospels deal with the Olive Tree - Christ's Kingdom which includes the Church and restored Israel. John's gospel deals with men in whom flows the divine sap - the divine life of God - The Kingdom of Life.

So, a Tree being srtictly a Kingdom, being cut off does not mean you lose your status as a branch. What happens is that the branch is (i) distanced from the king, and (ii) is distanced from the enjoyment of the sap. Our Lord Jesus, King of Life, and who gave His Life to believers, wants a return for the Father for this investment. So He threatens men who have this life (for they are already branches) that He wants the appropriate fruits of the sap He provides. And if the branch, after being bestowed with all resources necessary to bear fruit, won't bear fruit, then he is in danger of being removed and burned. Our Lord could not have chosen a better analogy. The wood of a Vine is only good for one thing - bearing fruit. It is no good for construction, it is not good for furniture, it is not even good firewood. In Judges 9 the vine was for one thing - to produce fruit that when processed would "cheer God and man" (Jdg.9:13).

So it is not a matter of losing ones status, or intrinsic nature. It is a matter of using the sap, a precious resource, and bringing no result. The burning is because (i) God is offended (he does not need a heater or a furnace otherwise He would use other wood), and (ii) because it is a testimony of being useless for the intended purpose. The True Vine, unlike the Olive Tree, is made only of men with the same lIFE. It is to produce fruit, not oil for light. It is for God's "cheering", not His "honor". Although it is the Church, it does not picture the Assembly, but it pictures fruitlessness after all resources were invested in you. The disobedient builders in the Church in 1st Corinthians 3 suffer a loss, but are "saved though as by fire". The sinning "brother" of 1st Corinthians Chapter 5 is, cut off from his human LIFE that God's lIFE in his spirit may be preserved. The FIRE is retributive, not dissolutive.

Could it be because this is before the giving of the Holy Spirit ?

 

[throughfaith]

A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). We must investigate what the burden of John's gospel is, as well as looking to nature to tell us what the True Vine is. In nature we know that there are various "kingdoms". We call the lion "king of the beasts" and we refer to the animal kingdom. Among men, we have kingdoms, great and small. And what decides what the kingdom is, is the TYPE OF LIFE that prevails. We would not call king Solomon "the king of the beasts" although technically, all the beasts in Israel were his subjects. The reason we wouldn't say this is that a king is king over his own type of life.

John 20:30-31 lays down the reason why John wrote his gospel.

30 "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

God's plan with His man, Adam, was not to keep a set of Laws or build a monument to Him. It was that a human would eat of the Tree of LIfe and be a man motivated and empowered by divine life. And so, while the synoptic gospels deal with Jesus the Man and His Kingdom on earth, John deals with Jesus as God getting the divine life into man. The synoptic gospels deal with the Olive Tree - Christ's Kingdom which includes the Church and restored Israel. John's gospel deals with men in whom flows the divine sap - the divine life of God - The Kingdom of Life.

So, a Tree being srtictly a Kingdom, being cut off does not mean you lose your status as a branch. What happens is that the branch is (i) distanced from the king, and (ii) is distanced from the enjoyment of the sap. Our Lord Jesus, King of Life, and who gave His Life to believers, wants a return for the Father for this investment. So He threatens men who have this life (for they are already branches) that He wants the appropriate fruits of the sap He provides. And if the branch, after being bestowed with all resources necessary to bear fruit, won't bear fruit, then he is in danger of being removed and burned. Our Lord could not have chosen a better analogy. The wood of a Vine is only good for one thing - bearing fruit. It is no good for construction, it is not good for furniture, it is not even good firewood. In Judges 9 the vine was for one thing - to produce fruit that when processed would "cheer God and man" (Jdg.9:13).

So it is not a matter of losing ones status, or intrinsic nature. It is a matter of using the sap, a precious resource, and bringing no result. The burning is because (i) God is offended (he does not need a heater or a furnace otherwise He would use other wood), and (ii) because it is a testimony of being useless for the intended purpose. The True Vine, unlike the Olive Tree, is made only of men with the same lIFE. It is to produce fruit, not oil for light. It is for God's "cheering", not His "honor". Although it is the Church, it does not picture the Assembly, but it pictures fruitlessness after all resources were invested in you. The disobedient builders in the Church in 1st Corinthians 3 suffer a loss, but are "saved though as by fire". The sinning "brother" of 1st Corinthians Chapter 5 is, cut off from his human LIFE that God's lIFE in his spirit may be preserved. The FIRE is retributive, not dissolutive.

Meaning ...Not one disciple present was “IN” Jesus Christ at this time. Not one of them was “abiding in Christ,” and He was not “abiding” in any of them (see John 14:16–17). . No angels burn anyone in the fire (as in Matt. 13:40). “Men” gather these branches and burn them (vs. 6). Many Christians alive now (and for the last twenty centuries) have been “IN Christ” with the Holy Spirit “abiding” in them.

 

[AlmondJoy]

Does John 15 teach that you can forfeit salvation ?

1¶I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5¶I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9¶As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11¶These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Yes

 

[Corban]

Could it be because this is before the giving of the Holy Spirit ?

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking if the True Vine , its branches and its fruit pertain to the time before the giving of the Holy Spirit in John 20:22. If so, then my answer is no. The True Vine, comes into existence, IN TIME, on resurrection day. The THREAT remains valid for this age. The Tree remains FOREVER.

If Adam had eaten of the Tree of LIFE, the True Vine would have come into being in Eden - a Kingdom of LIFE. Although John gives great detail, and great insight into the DEATH of Jesus, its focus is LIFE. Thus, while in John 12:24 the fruit of Christ's death is addressed, in John 15 it is the producing of FRUIT for the Father FROM A KINGDOM OF HIS LIFE. It points straight at every Christian who will ever live and says; BEAR FRUIT .... OR ELSE.

Just one point that usually gets lost in this analogy is the fact that ALL Branches get CUT. The issue is not the CUTTING, for the fruitful boughs are heavily pruned (if you've ever watched a vintner pruning). The theme is that if you have the resources of the Stem, and you don't produce fruit, you will be removed FROM THE KINGDOM - AND PUNISHED.

 

[throughfaith]

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking if the True Vine , its branches and its fruit pertain to the time before the giving of the Holy Spirit in John 20:22. If so, then my answer is no. The True Vine, comes into existence, IN TIME, on resurrection day. The THREAT remains valid for this age. The Tree remains FOREVER.

If Adam had eaten of the Tree of LIFE, the True Vine would have come into being in Eden - a Kingdom of LIFE. Although John gives great detail, and great insight into the DEATH of Jesus, its focus is LIFE. Thus, while in John 12:24 the fruit of Christ's death is addressed, in John 15 it is the producing of FRUIT for the Father FROM A KINGDOM OF HIS LIFE. It points straight at every Christian who will ever live and says; BEAR FRUIT .... OR ELSE.

Just one point that usually gets lost in this analogy is the fact that ALL Branches get CUT. The issue is not the CUTTING, for the fruitful boughs are heavily pruned (if you've ever watched a vintner pruning). The theme is that if you have the resources of the Stem, and you don't produce fruit, you will be removed FROM THE KINGDOM - AND PUNISHED.

I'm saying that time ( John 15 ) Not one disciple present was “IN” Jesus Christ at this time. Not one of them was “abiding in Christ,” and He was not “abiding” in any of them (see John 14:16–17). . No angels burn anyone in the fire (as in Matt. 13:40). “Men” gather these branches and burn them (vs. 6). Many Christians alive now (and for the last twenty centuries) have been “IN Christ” with the Holy Spirit “abiding” in them.
Nor is it clear that they recieved the Holy spirit until Acts 2 . I think Acts 1 .8 and Acts 11
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Show that they would have had the Holy Spirit come upon them as it did to David for example( John 20.22) but did not ' indwell ' until Acts 2 .

 

[posthuman]

These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

He spoke these things so that His joy might remain in us, and our joy thereby be full.

does it bring you His joy to fear He will forsake you, reject you, abandon you, cast you out and destroy you?
tell me about His joy, what it does to you and how it comes about.

 

[Corban]

Meaning ...Not one disciple present was “IN” Jesus Christ at this time. Not one of them was “abiding in Christ,” and He was not “abiding” in any of them (see John 14:16–17). . No angels burn anyone in the fire (as in Matt. 13:40). “Men” gather these branches and burn them (vs. 6). Many Christians alive now (and for the last twenty centuries) have been “IN Christ” with the Holy Spirit “abiding” in them.

Your questions don't actually address any statement I made, so its hard to answer. John 15 does not dwell on the detail of who burns what and when. But if you are interested we can address verse 6, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

To "abide in Christ" literally means we dwell in Him. That is, He is our center, and our periphery, our supply, our refuge, our life's partner, the center of our decisions and desires, our food and intimate companion. That means while awake, or asleep, going in, going out, at work or play, suffering or joy, all revolves around and is encapsulated in Him. The analogy shows what He desires from us

"cast forth" implies cut off, but it is more than this. It is a removal from His presence. There are teo reasons for this. (i) The wayward Christian is a disgrace to the name of Jesus, (ii) the wayward Christian is wasting Gods investment in him - the divine life's sap.

"withered". Since we address LIFE here, a branch removed from the stem at first shows nothing. But then, after a few days, it shows signs of lack of life's sap. After a month it dries out and is obviously "withered"

"men gather them". All throughout the Bible, God, the Great Sovereign, has His creature to do His work. Water covers the earth when He judges it full of pollutions. God uses one nation to chastise another, like Nebuchadnezzar was a "servant" of the Lord to chastise Judah. Angels will "gather" the Church in harvest at the end of the age. Angels with "gather Israel" after Christ's return. God is a True King. He does not get His hands dirty. He delegates. That is why He made man. To SUBDUE and to RULE (Gen.1:26-28). So in His blessings and His judgments, he uses His creature. Now consider these. They are ALL AFTER HE RETURNS at the end of the age:

• His army of resurrected men will destroy the armies of the Beast (Rev.19)
• The five foolish Virgins must buy from the same people who sold to the wise Virgins (Matt.25)
• The unjust steward must cheat his Master that men might help him in Luke 16
• The wayward "servant" of the Lord must be beaten by many stripes in Luke 12
• The unforgiving servant will be handed over to a jail and beatings in Matthew 5

The point I'm making is that there is a TIME PERIOD after the Lord's return in which these chastisements take place. The END of these chastisements for God's people is in Revelation 21:4. All suffering and tears are ended at the time that God renews (lit. Gk.) the earth. So, the period between Christ's second coming, and the New Earth, is the TIME when men will be used by God to inflict chastisement and retribution. And this time period is commonly called the Millennium - the thousand years where Christ will SUBDUE all things including the nations, Satan, Magog and even death. It is a time period of REWARD for the diligent Christian, and it is the time period for the chastisement of the wayward Christians, BY MEN - just as these past 1,900 years + have been the time period when MEN chastised Israel.

"burn" is used throughout the Bible to indicate either a destroying fire or a purging fire. Even the concept of the Nations who "burn" in the Lake of Fire is not a concept of annihilation, but of ongoing suffering or "torment".

The Christian never loses his rebirth, status as son of God, or of his sins put away. These were all achieved by Christ and this in turn was accepted by the Father. The works of Christ can never be put away. God will never annul the grand effect of His Son's sacrifice. BUT THE CHRISTIAN CAN BE CHASTISED.

 

[Corban]

I'm saying that time ( John 15 ) Not one disciple present was “IN” Jesus Christ at this time. Not one of them was “abiding in Christ,” and He was not “abiding” in any of them (see John 14:16–17). . No angels burn anyone in the fire (as in Matt. 13:40). “Men” gather these branches and burn them (vs. 6). Many Christians alive now (and for the last twenty centuries) have been “IN Christ” with the Holy Spirit “abiding” in them.
Nor is it clear that they recieved the Holy spirit until Acts 2 . I think Acts 1 .8 and Acts 11
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Show that they would have had the Holy Spirit come upon them as it did to David for example( John 20.22) but did not ' indwell ' until Acts 2 .

The giving of the Holy Spirit to men is for two reasons. (i) So that they can partake of the divine LIFE of God. This is given INTERNALLY and is given when Christ was glorified in resurrection (Jn,7:39, 20:22). It adds the divine element to man's nature. (ii) So that they have POWER for ministry (Lk.24:49, Act.1:8). This is given OUTWARDLY like a uniform is given to a policeman. The Greek word means "furnished".

It is the same Holy Spirit, but He achieves two different tasks. The one is LIFE and it is given INTO the human spirit at rebirth (Jn.3:6). The other is POWER to do the work of God and is given outwardly. One is the Spirit "IN" you, and one is the Spirit "UPON" you. One was given when God approved Christ's sacrifice by resurrecting Christ, and the other was given on a Day when God's people had gathered for Pentecost. One is TO PRODUCE FRUIT, and one is for HARVESTING FRUIT. One is for BELIEVERS, one is for SERVANTS. One makes SONS of God, the other equips SERVANTS of God. The Spirit came UPON Balaam, but was never IN him. The Spirit was IN the "believers" of Ephesus (Act.19), but not UPON them (until they had the correct Baptism).

 

[throughfaith]

The giving of the Holy Spirit to men is for two reasons. (i) So that they can partake of the divine LIFE of God. This is given INTERNALLY and is given when Christ was glorified in resurrection (Jn,7:39, 20:22). It adds the divine element to man's nature. (ii) So that they have POWER for ministry (Lk.24:49, Act.1:8). This is given OUTWARDLY like a uniform is given to a policeman. The Greek word means "furnished".

It is the same Holy Spirit, but He achieves two different tasks. The one is LIFE and it is given INTO the human spirit at rebirth (Jn.3:6). The other is POWER to do the work of God and is given outwardly. One is the Spirit "IN" you, and one is the Spirit "UPON" you. One was given when God approved Christ's sacrifice by resurrecting Christ, and the other was given on a Day when God's people had gathered for Pentecost. One is TO PRODUCE FRUIT, and one is for HARVESTING FRUIT. One is for BELIEVERS, one is for SERVANTS. One makes SONS of God, the other equips SERVANTS of God. The Spirit came UPON Balaam, but was never IN him. The Spirit was IN the "believers" of Ephesus (Act.19), but not UPON them (until they had the correct Baptism).

I think being a simple ,practical man , sometimes i may be mis understanding your explanations. So apologies if i mis what your saying. It can seem quite elaborate upon first reading and needs a longer read .

 

[mailmandan]

In regards to John 15, Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas..

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

 

[throughfaith]

The giving of the Holy Spirit to men is for two reasons. (i) So that they can partake of the divine LIFE of God. This is given INTERNALLY and is given when Christ was glorified in resurrection (Jn,7:39, 20:22). It adds the divine element to man's nature. (ii) So that they have POWER for ministry (Lk.24:49, Act.1:8). This is given OUTWARDLY like a uniform is given to a policeman. The Greek word means "furnished".

It is the same Holy Spirit, but He achieves two different tasks. The one is LIFE and it is given INTO the human spirit at rebirth (Jn.3:6). The other is POWER to do the work of God and is given outwardly. One is the Spirit "IN" you, and one is the Spirit "UPON" you. One was given when God approved Christ's sacrifice by resurrecting Christ, and the other was given on a Day when God's people had gathered for Pentecost. One is TO PRODUCE FRUIT, and one is for HARVESTING FRUIT. One is for BELIEVERS, one is for SERVANTS. One makes SONS of God, the other equips SERVANTS of God. The Spirit came UPON Balaam, but was never IN him. The Spirit was IN the "believers" of Ephesus (Act.19), but not UPON them (until they had the correct Baptism).

I would, in simple terms say that in the old testament ( which is all the way up to Jesus's death ) the Holy spirit would come upon a person for a task or purpose ect . I see this happening to the diciples . Acts 2 begins the indwelling of the Holy spirit . This sealing remains until the day of redemption.

 

[throughfaith]

A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). We must investigate what the burden of John's gospel is, as well as looking to nature to tell us what the True Vine is. In nature we know that there are various "kingdoms". We call the lion "king of the beasts" and we refer to the animal kingdom. Among men, we have kingdoms, great and small. And what decides what the kingdom is, is the TYPE OF LIFE that prevails. We would not call king Solomon "the king of the beasts" although technically, all the beasts in Israel were his subjects. The reason we wouldn't say this is that a king is king over his own type of life.

John 20:30-31 lays down the reason why John wrote his gospel.

30 "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

God's plan with His man, Adam, was not to keep a set of Laws or build a monument to Him. It was that a human would eat of the Tree of LIfe and be a man motivated and empowered by divine life. And so, while the synoptic gospels deal with Jesus the Man and His Kingdom on earth, John deals with Jesus as God getting the divine life into man. The synoptic gospels deal with the Olive Tree - Christ's Kingdom which includes the Church and restored Israel. John's gospel deals with men in whom flows the divine sap - the divine life of God - The Kingdom of Life.

So, a Tree being srtictly a Kingdom, being cut off does not mean you lose your status as a branch. What happens is that the branch is (i) distanced from the king, and (ii) is distanced from the enjoyment of the sap. Our Lord Jesus, King of Life, and who gave His Life to believers, wants a return for the Father for this investment. So He threatens men who have this life (for they are already branches) that He wants the appropriate fruits of the sap He provides. And if the branch, after being bestowed with all resources necessary to bear fruit, won't bear fruit, then he is in danger of being removed and burned. Our Lord could not have chosen a better analogy. The wood of a Vine is only good for one thing - bearing fruit. It is no good for construction, it is not good for furniture, it is not even good firewood. In Judges 9 the vine was for one thing - to produce fruit that when processed would "cheer God and man" (Jdg.9:13).

So it is not a matter of losing ones status, or intrinsic nature. It is a matter of using the sap, a precious resource, and bringing no result. The burning is because (i) God is offended (he does not need a heater or a furnace otherwise He would use other wood), and (ii) because it is a testimony of being useless for the intended purpose. The True Vine, unlike the Olive Tree, is made only of men with the same lIFE. It is to produce fruit, not oil for light. It is for God's "cheering", not His "honor". Although it is the Church, it does not picture the Assembly, but it pictures fruitlessness after all resources were invested in you. The disobedient builders in the Church in 1st Corinthians 3 suffer a loss, but are "saved though as by fire". The sinning "brother" of 1st Corinthians Chapter 5 is, cut off from his human LIFE that God's lIFE in his spirit may be preserved. The FIRE is retributive, not dissolutive.

Who is Jesus speaking to in John 15 ? and you can see in the following verses the Holy Spirit has not yet come . So this being spoken specifically to them is about THEM remaining until the Holy Spirit comes and places them into the BODY .
John 15
25But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

26¶But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

 

[throughfaith]

The giving of the Holy Spirit to men is for two reasons. (i) So that they can partake of the divine LIFE of God. This is given INTERNALLY and is given when Christ was glorified in resurrection (Jn,7:39, 20:22). It adds the divine element to man's nature. (ii) So that they have POWER for ministry (Lk.24:49, Act.1:8). This is given OUTWARDLY like a uniform is given to a policeman. The Greek word means "furnished".

It is the same Holy Spirit, but He achieves two different tasks. The one is LIFE and it is given INTO the human spirit at rebirth (Jn.3:6). The other is POWER to do the work of God and is given outwardly. One is the Spirit "IN" you, and one is the Spirit "UPON" you. One was given when God approved Christ's sacrifice by resurrecting Christ, and the other was given on a Day when God's people had gathered for Pentecost. One is TO PRODUCE FRUIT, and one is for HARVESTING FRUIT. One is for BELIEVERS, one is for SERVANTS. One makes SONS of God, the other equips SERVANTS of God. The Spirit came UPON Balaam, but was never IN him. The Spirit was IN the "believers" of Ephesus (Act.19), but not UPON them (until they had the correct Baptism).

I do not see John 20 .22 as anything but the Spirit coming UPON them. Not indwelling them as in Acts 2 .If I'm understanding you ? It looks like you see it in reverse ?