Flesh (Old Man) VS Spirit (New Man): Difficult Scriptures explained by Pastor Ralph Arnold

[Scribe]

I’m sorry. Was there a post I made saying we should wallow in our sin?

The passage you cite has to do with idol worship. Here is what links the “therefore “.

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore
“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”

Now our Father WILL discipline us, up to and including allowing satan to destroy our flesh, if we continue to sin.

But I do not believe our sonship will be lost.

DONT hear what I’m not saying!

I will NEVER advocate that it is ok to sin.

I just don't agree with the theology that we sin with our flesh but not our spirit. Or any such kind of rhetoric. The verse I posted is sufficient to suggest otherwise.

ESV 2 Cor 7:1
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

The context backs up the clear admonition. It is not just the body that is affected but the spirit as well. Whatever that means, it means what it says and the spirit is involved. And that is enough to declare the statement that we cannot sin with our spirit as a false statement. As a matter of fact it is so false that it is turned on it's head and is upside down. It is our spirit that makes the choices we make even if it is the flesh that lusts for satisfaction. Our spirits are culpable. Let's keep it sane.

To excuse our spirit as not guilty of the choices we make is to deny reality and create an imagined reality and then try to convince ourselves of this imagined reality while all the while in our subconscious we know the truth, and this is the definition of crazy talk.

 

[calibob]

I’m sorry. Was there a post I made saying we should wallow in our sin?

The passage you cite has to do with idol worship. Here is what links the “therefore “.

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore
“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”

Now our Father WILL discipline us, up to and including allowing satan to destroy our flesh, if we continue to sin.

But I do not believe our sonship will be lost.

DONT hear what I’m not saying!

I will NEVER advocate that it is ok to sin.

Yes, I believe you're right. Usually when I've heard this verse quoted, it was in regards to dating and marriage.

 

[throughfaith]

Great Post.

 

[throughfaith]

I just don't agree with the theology that we sin with our flesh but not our spirit. Or any such kind of rhetoric. The verse I posted is sufficient to suggest otherwise.

ESV 2 Cor 7:1
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

The context backs up the clear admonition. It is not just the body that is affected but the spirit as well. Whatever that means, it means what it says and the spirit is involved. And that is enough to declare the statement that we cannot sin with our spirit as a false statement. As a matter of fact it is so false that it is turned on it's head and is upside down. It is our spirit that makes the choices we make even if it is the flesh that lusts for satisfaction. Our spirits are culpable. Let's keep it sane.

To excuse our spirit as not guilty of the choices we make is to deny reality and create an imagined reality and then try to convince ourselves of this imagined reality while all the while in our subconscious we know the truth, and this is the definition of crazy talk.

3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

our spiritual resurrection has already happened.

 

[throughfaith]

This is a fair question.

I haven't watched the video yet, but I think there's a distinction between admitting that we sin, and actually advocating that it's ok to do so.

The later does indeed have the Nicolaitans written all over it, but the former would be useful for those that have sinned, and the devil tells them they are lost.

Who teaches or advocates that its ok to sin . I don't even know of any cults that teach this . Not even the prosperity teachers ? This is a strange response ?

 

[Scribe]

Who teaches or advocates that its ok to sin . I don't even know of any cults that teach this . Not even the prosperity teachers ? This is a strange response ?

They don't teach that it is ok to sin. No one says that. Doctrines of demons are more subtle. They are very long winded about how the spirit can't sin and that the flesh is nothing. They use many scriptures that are true in the right context but then they put a little error in the mix so that it results in a paradigm shift and an excuse for why they are in bondage to lusts but are not concerned about their eternal state.


If the preacher is smoking and drinking they will probably be fornicating as well and will have a 20 page thesis justifying each as not a deal breaker, saying that they are not guilty of sinning with their spirit and that the flesh is nothing. Epicureansim, with a twist.

 

[throughfaith]

They don't teach that it is ok to sin. No one says that. Doctrines of demons are more subtle. They are very long winded about how the spirit can't sin and that the flesh is nothing. They use many scriptures that are true in the right context but then they put a little error in the mix so that it results in a paradigm shift and an excuse for why they are in bondage to lusts but are not concerned about their eternal state.


If the preacher is smoking and drinking they will probably be fornicating as well and will have a 20 page thesis justifying each as not a deal breaker, saying that they are not guilty of sinning with their spirit and that the flesh is nothing. Epicureansim, with a twist.

Find me a cult or a false religion which doesn't teach loss of salvation. How would they survive ?

 

[Scribe]

Find me a cult or a false religion which doesn't teach loss of salvation. How would they survive ?

Not sure I understand.
It is true that most Christians believe in the possibility of apostacy, or backsliding and without repentance, eventually going to hell as a result. Since it is the view of mainstream Christianity it cannot be labeled as the mark of a cult view.

It is simply the most natural interpretation of scriptures on the subject, therefore it is the most common sense conclusion by most people who also base their opinions on real life experiences.

Why do you think people argue about it so much?

 

[Blain]

In this video, Pastor Ralph "Yankee" Arnold explains a set of difficult Scriptures which are commonly wrested and pulled out of its context. He also explains in this video what the New Birth is and how that the Old Sin Nature which we all inherited from our first (Fleshly) Birth is not eradicated in this life. But rather that we received a Second Birth at Salvation which is our Spiritual Birth, the New Man. And the New Man (Our New Nature) cannot sin since it is born of God, and also born of the word of God (the Holy Scripture). And since God and His word, the Holy Scripture are both Holy, Divine, Just, Perfect and completely without Sin. Therefore our New Nature is also Holy, Divine, Just, Perfect and completely without Sin. Hence, if We walk in the Spirit, we will not sin, and we will not fulfil the lusts of the Flesh. But when we walk in the Flesh, we will sin. We will fulfil the lusts of the flesh if we walk in the Flesh (The Old Man, our First Birth). Hence, We therefore are still capable of sinning in the flesh.


But again, our New Man cannot sin, nor does it have any desire to sin. The New Man only wants to do that which is Just, Holy, Right, Pure and Truthful.

I pray that this video is a big help to those Christians out there who doubt their salvation a lot and who lack assurance. When we read and study the word of God It is very important that we rightly divide it, as we are commanded to do in 2 Timothy 2:15. And when it comes to the Doctrinal subject of the Two Natures and the New Birth, I think Pastor Ralph Arnold does a really great job at explaining this truth in his teachings. Well saints, may you all be edified and may this help to also strengthen your understanding of other Doctrines in the Bible and help you to grow and mature In your Christian walk even more.

The way I understand it is that yes while we live in this fleshly vessel we are still capable of sinning however I do not believe it is because our old nature still exists in us I believe that in general the flesh is a vessel that is on this side of eternal and not in his. There is no sin in his kingdom because we are no longer of the flesh at all but on this side of eternal everything is flawed sin corruption aeverything that isn't of his kingdom resides here

However the new nature heart mind and spirit we are given when we are born again resides inside us in our hearts and mind and spirit. If I may give a testimony of sorts when I was a new believer I was terrified of my sins because many on here at the time put great importance on the sinless doctrine it was one of those times when a certain topic kind of takes over the forum and I was so scared I would lose my salvation because there were certains I couldn't seem to stop doing no matter how hard I tried.

I had a dream one night that I was in a pitch black placed and I was being physically held down by a demon this demon wanted to rip me to shreds with it's huge sharp teeth it was so angry violent and thirsty for blood it really really hated me and it attempted to do just that when I put my hand up saying you can only do this if I have sin in my life the demon couldn't find any and it went away.

I woke up wondering about this dream and thought it odd that I was found innocent in that dream especially by a demon but even to this day this topic tugs at me is our new nature and spirit the true us and not the earthly us? Why is it that there is sin in the flesh yet if we look inside our hearts we don't see any? I even look in the mirror and don't recognize my own face because I feel like the real me is not what I am here it's a little out there and confusing of course but I just like to think about stuff like this

 

[throughfaith]

Not sure I understand.
It is true that most Christians believe in the possibility of apostacy, or backsliding and without repentance, eventually going to hell as a result. Since it is the view of mainstream Christianity it cannot be labeled as the mark of a cult view.

It is simply the most natural interpretation of scriptures on the subject, therefore it is the most common sense conclusion by most people who also base their opinions on real life experiences.

Why do you think people argue about it so much?

Would you agree that every cult and false religion teaches loss of salvation? Or that you must persevere and endure to the end to be saved?
Not one teaches apart from those two positions. They could not remain without the fear . They rely on fear and appeal to the flesh. The world on the whole is ok with works righteousness. ( so long as its producing beneficial things for society)

 

[Scribe]

Would you agree that every cult and false religion teaches loss of salvation? Or that you must persevere and endure to the end to be saved?
Not one teaches apart from those two positions. They could not remain without the fear . They rely on fear and appeal to the flesh. The world on the whole is ok with works righteousness. ( so long as its producing beneficial things for society)

Cults have in common the teaching that they are the only ones that are saved and that you are saved by being a member of their cult.

The Assemblies of God believe that the scriptures teach the possibility of a Christian backsliding or apostacy as a possibility. They are not a cult. They are the largest, fastest growing evangelical denomination in the world and the largest Missionary organization in the world. If you think that this doctrine contributes to their survival as an organization I don't agree. Their reason for success is the preaching of the pentecostal doctrines and the experiential reality of a relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit that is attractive to most people. The message of Holiness and the necessity of holiness is also a contributor to their success, not because they teach one must be a member of AOG but that people in any denomination should live a holy life pleasing to God and this is attractive to sincere lovers of Christ who hear the same from the Holy Spirit within them.

This old OSAS argument has changed over the years. I have seen a trend where the denominations that taught it the most are being careful to reteach it in a more balanced way because they have seen too many of their congregates living like the world and claiming to be saved. They realized they had given the wrong message. Now they are redeveloping their teachings to bring a sense of the necessity of holiness back into their people and as a result they are on the same page as the AOG in this regard.

Paul Washer is getting a lot of flack by those who think he is departing from their main theology of OSAS but he is actually teaching that many of these folks never were saved. Now that is also controversial but it results in the same thing. The people in these denominations are changing their views to get back in line with scripture concerning the necessity of a holy life and for that I am glad.

 

[throughfaith]

Cults have in common the teaching that they are the only ones that are saved and that you are saved by being a member of their cult.

The Assemblies of God believe that the scriptures teach the possibility of a Christian backsliding or apostacy as a possibility. They are not a cult. They are the largest, fastest growing evangelical denomination in the world and the largest Missionary organization in the world. If you think that this doctrine contributes to their survival as an organization I don't agree. Their reason for success is the preaching of the pentecostal doctrines and the experiential reality of a relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit that is attractive to most people. The message of Holiness and the necessity of holiness is also a contributor to their success, not because they teach one must be a member of AOG but that people in any denomination should live a holy life pleasing to God and this is attractive to sincere lovers of Christ who hear the same from the Holy Spirit within them.

This old OSAS argument has changed over the years. I have seen a trend where the denominations that taught it the most are being careful to reteach it in a more balanced way because they have seen too many of their congregates living like the world and claiming to be saved. They realized they had given the wrong message. Now they are redeveloping their teachings to bring a sense of the necessity of holiness back into their people and as a result they are on the same page as the AOG in this regard.

Paul Washer is getting a lot of flack by those who think he is departing from their main theology of OSAS but he is actually teaching that many of these folks never were saved. Now that is also controversial but it results in the same thing. The people in these denominations are changing their views to get back in line with scripture concerning the necessity of a holy life and for that I am glad.

Well Christians do fall into that category of being the ' only ones to be saved ' . We don't believe Muslims will be saved do we ? My point was the one area of agreement which ensures members and allegiance is ' loss of salvation ' . Whether it be to the organisation, to the doctrines , the guru , the leader , the beliefs. They are lead by fear . They are led by " you have to persevere and endure to the end to be saved " without fail this is the emphasis. Even the non religious believe if there was a heaven , it would have to be a system of following a set of rules and practices, perseverance and faithfulness till the end in order to remain and attain .

 

[Scribe]

Well Christians do fall into that category of being the ' only ones to be saved ' . We don't believe Muslims will be saved do we ? My point was the one area of agreement which ensures members and allegiance is ' loss of salvation ' . Whether it be to the organisation, to the doctrines , the guru , the leader , the beliefs. They are lead by fear . They are led by " you have to persevere and endure to the end to be saved " without fail this is the emphasis. Even the non religious believe if there was a heaven , it would have to be a system of following a set of rules and practices, perseverance and faithfulness till the end in order to remain and attain .

Christian Cults are those that depart from mainstream essential doctrines such as Divinity of Christ, and usually allow for quite a bit of personal sins to be indulged in as long as the main teachings of the cult are contended for. Most Christian Cults have this in common, a lack of concern about personal holiness. Many wink at fornication or actually practice it as part of the cult religious activities. That is what makes them a cult. Sexual sins are a common trait of religious cults and always have been.

The theology that adhering to the biblical doctrine that holiness is a requirement would result in a person refraining from sins they once indulged in because they believe that if they do indulge in them that the end result will be hell, is not a cult belief, or a wrong belief, it is sound hermeneutics.

Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

 

[throughfaith]

Christian Cults are those that depart from mainstream essential doctrines such as Divinity of Christ, and usually allow for quite a bit of personal sins to be indulged in as long as the main teachings of the cult are contended for. Most Christian Cults have this in common, a lack of concern about personal holiness. Many wink at fornication or actually practice it as part of the cult religious activities. That is what makes them a cult. Sexual sins are a common trait of religious cults and always have been.

The theology that adhering to the biblical doctrine that holiness is a requirement would result in a person refraining from sins they once indulged in because they believe that if they do indulge in them that the end result will be hell, is not a cult belief, or a wrong belief, it is sound hermeneutics.

Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Yes I realise Cults and religions are heretical. My point was on the one common theme they all share ,and that is loss of salvation. Without exception. Now of course we see issues with in these groups . But the point is on what they teach . They teach that you HAVE the persevere and endure till the end to be saved. There is not security or assurance in any false group or religion . To one degree or another they are fear based .
Without fail the Jehovah's_Witnesses, Mormons, SDA , Catholics all quote the same verses pertaining to the idea you have to persevere and Endure to the end to be saved . They all without question strongly deny that you can be eternally secure without works / deeds / perseverance and enduring . The very idea is completely rejected . Now i contend that none of these groups / cults and false religions would survive without this fear hanging over people . People join believing this is the vehicle to get them to the destination and once aboard they have to stay otherwise if they leave they are doomed .
Non religious people instinctively see this themselves. They will also say if there was a heaven you would have to join a religion , be good in it , remain till the end and hope to make it . Most don't entertain the idea because they readily see they wouldn't be able to go the distance. Others through pride think they can do it .

 

[Scribe]

Yes I realise Cults and religions are heretical. My point was on the one common theme they all share ,and that is loss of salvation. Without exception. Now of course we see issues with in these groups . But the point is on what they teach . They teach that you HAVE the persevere and endure till the end to be saved. There is not security or assurance in any false group or religion . To one degree or another they are fear based .
Without fail the Jehovah's_Witnesses, Mormons, SDA , Catholics all quote the same verses pertaining to the idea you have to persevere and Endure to the end to be saved . They all without question strongly deny that you can be eternally secure without works / deeds / perseverance and enduring . The very idea is completely rejected . Now i contend that none of these groups / cults and false religions would survive without this fear hanging over people . People join believing this is the vehicle to get them to the destination and once aboard they have to stay otherwise if they leave they are doomed .
Non religious people instinctively see this themselves. They will also say if there was a heaven you would have to join a religion , be good in it , remain till the end and hope to make it . Most don't entertain the idea because they readily see they wouldn't be able to go the distance. Others through pride think they can do it .

Within protestant evangelical mainline Christian traditions most believe that you are not saved by joining a church. They do believe that you are not saved if you live in sin. They believe your eternal destiny is questionable if you are living in sin. They don't want to live in sin because they don't want to go to hell. The fear of hell does have a contributing factor in their pursuit of heaven. This does not make them wrong. It is actually very biblical.

Matt 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[throughfaith]

Within protestant evangelical mainline Christian traditions most believe that you are not saved by joining a church. They do believe that you are not saved if you live in sin. They believe your eternal destiny is questionable if you are living in sin. They don't want to live in sin because they don't want to go to hell. The fear of hell does have a contributing factor in their pursuit of heaven. This does not make them wrong. It is actually very biblical.

Matt 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Now heres another thing . In the majority of cases they will have most of their doctrines situated before the cross and very little in the epistles. Leading to some outright rejecting Paul altogether . Jehovah witness's, SDA, Mormons , even within christianity like Methodists, AOG, mennonites, Armish , Anabaptists, will teach mainly the Four Gospels. With a focus on Mathew 5 , gospels, James and hebrews Again a heavy emphasis on works , perseverance, enduring to the end to be saved .

 

[throughfaith]

Within protestant evangelical mainline Christian traditions most believe that you are not saved by joining a church. They do believe that you are not saved if you live in sin. They believe your eternal destiny is questionable if you are living in sin. They don't want to live in sin because they don't want to go to hell. The fear of hell does have a contributing factor in their pursuit of heaven. This does not make them wrong. It is actually very biblical.

Matt 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 10.28 is before the cross . Jesus hasn't died for anyone yet .

 

[Scribe]

Matt 10.28 is before the cross . Jesus hasn't died for anyone yet .

Sounds like a cult interpretation.

 

[Guojing]

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

We don't wallow in a sin and say it only contaminates the body and not the spirit.



I suppose it depends on the sin. If we are in the act of feeding the bodies of our enemies into a wood chipper, then yes we will hear, "depart from me ye worker of iniquity."

Your "what if" scenarios don't intimidate me.

I am not seeking to, thanks for clarifying your doctrine.

 

[Guojing]

It's not clear what you're saying, but I'll clarify the matter:

If Jesus could not sin, His temptation was a complete sham, and His identification with sinners is a lie. I say that He could choose not to sin, whereas without the Holy Spirit, humans are powerless to avoid sin.

Your first point is not necessarily true.

For your 2nd point, aren't all saved believers now sealed with the Holy Spirit? Yet, we still sin correct?

What happened after we get our new body at the rapture/2nd coming of Christ? Do you think we will still choose to sin then?