Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

[throughfaith]

Romans 8:28 speaks of predestination to glorification. You don't seem to realize that all of these categories fall under the main category of salvaiton. Regeneration, Justification, adoption, sanctification, kept by the power of God, glorification, are all part of the same package. Believers were predestined to all of them.

How can I say that? Because how can you be predestined to glorification unless you were already predestined to justification. No forgiveness, no glorification. And in Romans 8:28-30, predestination comes BEFORE justification.

Peter saying "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" applies here. And don't say that's only for Jews, because that would be an anti gospel statement. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Gospel.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Do you believe this verse refers to conversion ?

 

[throughfaith]

Romans 8:28 speaks of predestination to glorification. You don't seem to realize that all of these categories fall under the main category of salvaiton. Regeneration, Justification, adoption, sanctification, kept by the power of God, glorification, are all part of the same package. Believers were predestined to all of them.

How can I say that? Because how can you be predestined to glorification unless you were already predestined to justification. No forgiveness, no glorification. And in Romans 8:28-30, predestination comes BEFORE justification.

Peter saying "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" applies here. And don't say that's only for Jews, because that would be an anti gospel statement. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Gospel.

When you say predestined to Justification, which verse says this ? We have verses telling us what we are predestined to . Adoption and inheritance.

 

[throughfaith]

Romans 8:28 speaks of predestination to glorification. You don't seem to realize that all of these categories fall under the main category of salvaiton. Regeneration, Justification, adoption, sanctification, kept by the power of God, glorification, are all part of the same package. Believers were predestined to all of them.

How can I say that? Because how can you be predestined to glorification unless you were already predestined to justification. No forgiveness, no glorification. And in Romans 8:28-30, predestination comes BEFORE justification.

Peter saying "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" applies here. And don't say that's only for Jews, because that would be an anti gospel statement. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Gospel.

Nope . You need to read the context. It's the same here :
8¶Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

9Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that that they may also
obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Clearly Paul is referring to Jews here . For the ELECTS sake = jews . That THEY MAY ALSO obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[awelight]

Firstly, you have to agree that the Body of Christ was never called sheep by the Apostle Paul.

If it was that important, do you think Paul would have mentioned it at least once?

But perhaps more importantly, Christ did use it. He called Himself the Shephard of the Sheep. He employed it several times near the end of His ministry.

Joh_21:16 He saith to him again a second time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Tend my sheep.
Joh_21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Used by Paul as an analogy:

Rom_8:36 Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And strongly used in Hebrews: (Which may or may not have been written by Paul)

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,

 

[awelight]

Step 1 You hear the Gospel.
2) You believe the Gospel
3) You are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
4) NOW !!!!!! you are predestined to glorification.

Simple.

Give to me the verses that show predestined or foreordained is used in that way? I would be honestly curious.

 

[throughfaith]

Give to me the verses that show predestined or foreordained is used in that way? I would be honestly curious.

Predestined is not ' foreordained ' .
Its simply choosing a destination a head of time .

 

[throughfaith]

But perhaps more importantly, Christ did use it. He called Himself the Shephard of the Sheep. He employed it several times near the end of His ministry.

Joh_21:16 He saith to him again a second time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Tend my sheep.
Joh_21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Used by Paul as an analogy:

Rom_8:36 Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And strongly used in Hebrews: (Which may or may not have been written by Paul)

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,

Still Jews .

 

[throughfaith]

Give to me the verses that show predestined or foreordained is used in that way? I would be honestly curious.

We are predestined to be conformed to his image . How much clearer do you want it ? We are predestined to the Adoption Rom 8.23 . This is future .

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

 

[awelight]

For one who is living outside time, does the term predestination makes sense?

For the one living outside time....that would be God, who is Eternal, predestination would mean nothing to Him personally. He who knows no past or future. God absolutely considered lives in the ever present now.

However, as to the unfolding of an Eternal Covenant, predestination has meaning to those whom are Temporal. It tells those who are bound by time, that the subject under discussion, was set forth before time began. Since time, cannot invade Eternity, then nothing done in time can change that which is set forth from God's realm. By like standards, Eternity may invade time and often times does. The Lord is not bound by time but by arrangement.

 

[throughfaith]

For the one living outside time....that would be God, who is Eternal, predestination would mean nothing to Him personally. He who knows no past or future. God absolutely considered lives in the ever present now.

However, as to the unfolding of an Eternal Covenant, predestination has meaning to those whom are Temporal. It tells those who are bound by time, that the subject under discussion, was set forth before time began. Since time, cannot invade Eternity, then nothing done in time can change that which is set forth from God's realm. By like standards, Eternity may invade time and often times does. The Lord is not bound by time but by arrangement.

Eternal covenant ?

 

[awelight]

We are predestined to be conformed to his image . How much clearer do you want it ? We are predestined to the Adoption Rom 8.23 . This is future .

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

Let's examine the obvious first.

There is an Eternal Covenant of Grace - It's head is Jesus Christ.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
Heb 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The things written herein are as much for the Gentiles as the Jew.

Secondly:

Why do you insist on trying to decouple Rom. 8:29 from 8:30? Verse 30 does not stand alone...it is a continuation of the thought in verse 29. also, examine verse 29 more closely:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

The key here is to be foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son. This means God foreordained the Elect to be the image of His Son. This can only be understood in the same way as in Genesis 1:26 and 27.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Obviously, God had previously decided that man would be in His likeness and Image. Just as in Rom. 8:29, God had already determined to make the Elect to be conformed to the image of His Son. The word "conformed" (συμμορφός), means: similar, to be shaped or to form. Thus, conformed is exactly like we see in Genesis.

It is just that simple to understand and see.

 

[throughfaith]

Let's examine the obvious first.

There is an Eternal Covenant of Grace - It's head is Jesus Christ.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
Heb 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The things written herein are as much for the Gentiles as the Jew.

Secondly:

Why do you insist on trying to decouple Rom. 8:29 from 8:30? Verse 30 does not stand alone...it is a continuation of the thought in verse 29. also, examine verse 29 more closely:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

The key here is to be foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son. This means God foreordained the Elect to be the image of His Son. This can only be understood in the same way as in Genesis 1:26 and 27.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Obviously, God had previously decided that man would be in His likeness and Image. Just as in Rom. 8:29, God had already determined to make the Elect to be conformed to the image of His Son. The word "conformed" (συμμορφός), means: similar, to be shaped or to form. Thus, conformed is exactly like we see in Genesis.

It is just that simple to understand and see.

Covenant of grace ?
So you were predestined to be conformed to his image . Ok and when does this happen?

 

[awelight]

Predestined is not ' foreordained ' .
Its simply choosing a destination a head of time .

You need to be a better Greek student. The Greek word to English could be translated either way. In the KJV "Predestined", In the ASV, "Foreordained", In the RSV "Predestined", The Nestle Greek Interlinear "Foreordained".

 

[throughfaith]

Let's examine the obvious first.

There is an Eternal Covenant of Grace - It's head is Jesus Christ.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
Heb 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The things written herein are as much for the Gentiles as the Jew.

Secondly:

Why do you insist on trying to decouple Rom. 8:29 from 8:30? Verse 30 does not stand alone...it is a continuation of the thought in verse 29. also, examine verse 29 more closely:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

The key here is to be foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son. This means God foreordained the Elect to be the image of His Son. This can only be understood in the same way as in Genesis 1:26 and 27.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Obviously, God had previously decided that man would be in His likeness and Image. Just as in Rom. 8:29, God had already determined to make the Elect to be conformed to the image of His Son. The word "conformed" (συμμορφός), means: similar, to be shaped or to form. Thus, conformed is exactly like we see in Genesis.

It is just that simple to understand and see.

The image has to do with glorification not like Adam .

 

[throughfaith]

You need to be a better Greek student. The Greek word to English could be translated either way. In the KJV "Predestined", In the ASV, "Foreordained", In the RSV "Predestined", The Nestle Greek Interlinear "Foreordained".

Ahh the Greek. I hear that a lot .

 

[awelight]

Covenant of grace ?
So you were predestined to be conformed to his image . Ok and when does this happen?

It begins to unfold in time at the "New Birth", continues through our "Conversion" experiences and culminates in our final step into Eternity, where we will see Him and be like Him. There is only one New Birth but many conversions. Every conversion helps bring us closer and closer to that conformation.

 

[throughfaith]

It begins to unfold in time at the "New Birth", continues through our "Conversion" experiences and culminates in our final step into Eternity, where we will see Him and be like Him. There is only one New Birth but many conversions. Every conversion helps bring us closer and closer to that conformation.

So you were predestined to be conformed in instalments? What if you die half way through , will you only be half conformed ?

 

[awelight]

Ahh the Greek. I hear that a lot .

You would be wise to heed it. When I first started studying the Kone Greek some twenty plus years ago, I could not believe how much the Horizons of Biblical Truth were expanded. The funny thing was, I was a terrible English and Grammar student. Couldn't see the use of it in Highschool. Now I love Grammar and diagramming sentences because it brings one ever closer to the Truth and therefore God's Holy message.

 

[awelight]

So you were predestined to be conformed in instalments? What if you die half way through , will you only be half conformed ?

Now your just being silly.

 

[throughfaith]

You would be wise to heed it. When I first started studying the Kone Greek some twenty plus years ago, I could not believe how much the Horizons of Biblical Truth were expanded. The funny thing was, I was a terrible English and Grammar student. Couldn't see the use of it in Highschool. Now I love Grammar and diagramming sentences because it brings one ever closer to the Truth and therefore God's Holy message.

Us poor lesser Christians , missing out on that ' deeper knowledge ' and wisdom. Are those who don't know the Greek, further from the truth ? Further from the Holy message ?