Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

throughfaith · Nov 17, 2020

Well as I don't believe we are conformed in stages i can believe what the text actually says . We are not conformed to his image in any sense at all . This is a future promise only . The Holy Spirit is the earnest until this happens.
1 John 3:2

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth NOT YET appear what we SHALL BE : but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we SHALL see him as he is.”

Romans 8:19

“For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH for the manifestation of the sons of God.”

Romans 8.23
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING for THE ADOPTION, to wit, THE REDEMPTION OF THE BODY.

Eph 1.5
5Having predestinated us unto THE ADOPTION of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate TO BE conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the FIRSTBORN AMOUNG MANY BRETHEREN

.

awelight · Nov 17, 2020

throughfaith said:

I am tired of answering, so I will turn it over to a few others and say Goodbye.

Adam Clarke:
And as he knew the Gentiles then, when the scheme was laid, and before any part of it was executed, consequently, in reference to the execution of this scheme, he foreknew us. This is the first step of our salvation, and the end or finishing of it is our conformity to the Son of God in eternal glory, Rom_8:17, which includes and supposes our moral conformity to him. When God knew us, at the forming of the Gospel scheme; or, when he intended to bestow on us the privilege of being his people; he then destinated or designed us to be conformed to the image of his Son; and, as he destinated or determined us then to this very high honor and happiness, he pre-destinated, fore-ordained, or pre-determined us to it. Thus we are to understand the foundation and finishing of the scheme of our salvation. The foundation is the foreknowledge, or gracious purpose of God; the finishing is our being joint heirs with Christ. Now, our calling or invitation (see on Rom_8:28 (note)) stands in connection with both these.

1. It stands in connection with God’s foreknowledge; and so it is a true and valid calling: for we are called, invited, or chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, who may bestow his blessings upon any people, as may seem good in his sight, 1Pe_1:2; consequently, we have a good title to the blessings of the Gospel to which we are called or invited. And this was to be proved, that the Jew, to whom the apostle particularly wrote, might see that the Gentiles being now called into the Church of God was not an accidental thing, but a matter which God had determined when he conceived the Gospel scheme. Thus our calling is connected with God’s foreknowledge.

Albert Barnes:
He also did predestinate - See the meaning of the original of this word explained in the notes at Rom_1:4; see also the Act_4:28 note; and 1Co_2:7 note. In these places the word evidently means to determine, purpose, or decree beforehand; and it must have this meaning here. No other idea could be consistent with the proper meaning of the word, or be intelligible. It is clear also that it does not refer to external privileges, but to real conversion and piety; since that to which they were predestinated was not the external privilege of the gospel, but conformity to his Son, and salvation; see Rom_8:30. No passage could possibly teach in stronger language that it was God’s purpose to save those who will be saved. Eph_1:5, “having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself.” Eph_1:11, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”
To be conformed to the image of his Son - To resemble his Son; to be of like form with the image of his Son.

throughfaith · Nov 17, 2020

awelight said:

I am tired of answering, so I will turn it over to a few others and say Goodbye.

Adam Clarke:
And as he knew the Gentiles then, when the scheme was laid, and before any part of it was executed, consequently, in reference to the execution of this scheme, he foreknew us. This is the first step of our salvation, and the end or finishing of it is our conformity to the Son of God in eternal glory, Rom_8:17, which includes and supposes our moral conformity to him. When God knew us, at the forming of the Gospel scheme; or, when he intended to bestow on us the privilege of being his people; he then destinated or designed us to be conformed to the image of his Son; and, as he destinated or determined us then to this very high honor and happiness, he pre-destinated, fore-ordained, or pre-determined us to it. Thus we are to understand the foundation and finishing of the scheme of our salvation. The foundation is the foreknowledge, or gracious purpose of God; the finishing is our being joint heirs with Christ. Now, our calling or invitation (see on Rom_8:28 (note)) stands in connection with both these.

1. It stands in connection with God’s foreknowledge; and so it is a true and valid calling: for we are called, invited, or chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, who may bestow his blessings upon any people, as may seem good in his sight, 1Pe_1:2; consequently, we have a good title to the blessings of the Gospel to which we are called or invited. And this was to be proved, that the Jew, to whom the apostle particularly wrote, might see that the Gentiles being now called into the Church of God was not an accidental thing, but a matter which God had determined when he conceived the Gospel scheme. Thus our calling is connected with God’s foreknowledge.

Albert Barnes:
He also did predestinate - See the meaning of the original of this word explained in the notes at Rom_1:4; see also the Act_4:28 note; and 1Co_2:7 note. In these places the word evidently means to determine, purpose, or decree beforehand; and it must have this meaning here. No other idea could be consistent with the proper meaning of the word, or be intelligible. It is clear also that it does not refer to external privileges, but to real conversion and piety; since that to which they were predestinated was not the external privilege of the gospel, but conformity to his Son, and salvation; see Rom_8:30. No passage could possibly teach in stronger language that it was God’s purpose to save those who will be saved. Eph_1:5, “having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself.” Eph_1:11, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”
To be conformed to the image of his Son - To resemble his Son; to be of like form with the image of his Son.

Always check what theology commentators hold to before absorbing their teachings.

throughfaith · Nov 17, 2020

awelight said:

I am tired of answering, so I will turn it over to a few others and say Goodbye.

Adam Clarke:
And as he knew the Gentiles then, when the scheme was laid, and before any part of it was executed, consequently, in reference to the execution of this scheme, he foreknew us. This is the first step of our salvation, and the end or finishing of it is our conformity to the Son of God in eternal glory, Rom_8:17, which includes and supposes our moral conformity to him. When God knew us, at the forming of the Gospel scheme; or, when he intended to bestow on us the privilege of being his people; he then destinated or designed us to be conformed to the image of his Son; and, as he destinated or determined us then to this very high honor and happiness, he pre-destinated, fore-ordained, or pre-determined us to it. Thus we are to understand the foundation and finishing of the scheme of our salvation. The foundation is the foreknowledge, or gracious purpose of God; the finishing is our being joint heirs with Christ. Now, our calling or invitation (see on Rom_8:28 (note)) stands in connection with both these.

1. It stands in connection with God’s foreknowledge; and so it is a true and valid calling: for we are called, invited, or chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, who may bestow his blessings upon any people, as may seem good in his sight, 1Pe_1:2; consequently, we have a good title to the blessings of the Gospel to which we are called or invited. And this was to be proved, that the Jew, to whom the apostle particularly wrote, might see that the Gentiles being now called into the Church of God was not an accidental thing, but a matter which God had determined when he conceived the Gospel scheme. Thus our calling is connected with God’s foreknowledge.

Albert Barnes:
He also did predestinate - See the meaning of the original of this word explained in the notes at Rom_1:4; see also the Act_4:28 note; and 1Co_2:7 note. In these places the word evidently means to determine, purpose, or decree beforehand; and it must have this meaning here. No other idea could be consistent with the proper meaning of the word, or be intelligible. It is clear also that it does not refer to external privileges, but to real conversion and piety; since that to which they were predestinated was not the external privilege of the gospel, but conformity to his Son, and salvation; see Rom_8:30. No passage could possibly teach in stronger language that it was God’s purpose to save those who will be saved. Eph_1:5, “having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself.” Eph_1:11, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”
To be conformed to the image of his Son - To resemble his Son; to be of like form with the image of his Son.

Adam Clarke . Methodist.
Barnes .Presbyterian
Which particular theology do you think they will hold to? 🤔

AlmondJoy · Nov 17, 2020

Budman said:

don't shake your head to hard you may shake something loose.....as far as your mind being boggled, I don't doubt that a bit

Lets examine this lie a little farther:

Matt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

verse 4 shows Judas was one of the 12 that received..... 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot

BUD.....Are you saying that Jesus gave the power of the Holy Ghost to a man without saving faith to cast out devils and heal sickness?

notice the further reading in the chapter:

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:—8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.—16 Behold, I send you forth as SHEEP

does this sound like a man without saving faith?

let us read on:

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

BUD....ARE YOU TELLING US THAT GOD WILL FILL A MAN WITHOUT SAVING FAITH WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND SPEAK THROUGH HIM.
I AM REALLY CURIOUS TO SEE HOW YOU WILL "WREST THE SCRIPTURES" ON THIS

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN V40 IF JUDAS DIDNT HAVE SAVING FAITH?

HOW COULD A MAN WITHOUT SAVING FAITH HAVE A PART IN THE MINISTRY AND APOSTLESHIP?
CANT YOU SEE HOW YOUR DOCTRINE DOSNT LINE UP WITH SCRIPTURE?

Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas was promised a throne in heaven together with the other apostles, how if he didn't have saving faith?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

the fact is Judas chose to walk away just like you and I can

God called this group "evildoers" the bible never says they actually cast out demons.
the bible says they asked God, "did we not?" if you believe this crowd actually cast out devils and healed the sick you are probably sending money to (Benny Chicken) Hinn!!!

JUDAS could not have been a devil from the beginning the bible is plain about this.

I just proved to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that Judas cast out devils

Mark 3:22-26 (KJV)
22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

YOU SPIT ON THE OLD RUGGED CROSS AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS TEACHING THAT WE MAY CONTINUE IN SIN THAT GRACE MAY ABOUND......GOD FORBID!!!!

I CANT THUNDER DOWN JUDGMENT ON NOBODY.....THE MESSAGE IS SIMPLE, REPENT!!!

IF YOU FALL AND SIN....REPENT HIS WORD SAID HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US!

HERE IS WHAT IS FUNNY ABOUT YOU CALLING ME A HYPOCRITE, I ACCEPTED CHRIST OVER 25 YEARS AGO, BUT ACCORDING TO YOUR DOCTRINE EVEN THOUGH I AM A PRETENDER & HYPOCRITE, I AM STILL GOING TO HEAVEN WITH YOU!!!!

throughfaith · Nov 17, 2020

Judas was not sealed by the Holy Spirit. That didn't happen until Acts 2 . He of course was not with the 11 waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit .

awelight · Nov 18, 2020

throughfaith said:

Like anyone, commentators have good things to say upon one subject and not so good in other areas. Just as, hopefully, we would say the same. We all should have the need to grow and none of us has yet arrived. Ones overall Theology does not preclude having certain things correct. Albert Barnes, has one of the most exhaustive commentaries ever written. While all believers should base their knowledge of the Truth on Scripture and Scripture alone, observing what others have to say and checking their claims against Scripture, is just another way to grow, both in the aid of seeing the Truth and seeing error. If a persons claims will not hold up against Scripture, then we grow by their error or if they have the Truth of it, we grow by their research. ONLY A FOOL would believe what another has to say if not supported by Scripture.

throughfaith · Nov 18, 2020

awelight said:

I'm Simply saying that if we check where commentators and theologians are coming from , their beliefs and worldview we are more equipped to discern the information we take on board . A friend of mine for good while mostly would listen to and read John Macarthur. But he had no idea about Calvinism. So he was unwittingly taking on Calvinstic doctrine without realising it .

awelight · Nov 18, 2020

throughfaith said:

Sir, you are confusing two totally different events. The sealing of the Holy Spirit, is accomplished at the time of the "New Birth" (Regeneration), this has been the same from Genesis to this day. What took place at Pentecost, in Acts chapter two, was the Baptizing of the Jews, in the young assembly, which Christ is now building. This Baptizing, empowered the assembly with special gifts, just as the Lord had promised in Luke_24:49 And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high.

This same Baptizing fell upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:45, 46 "And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God....."

These two advents, upon the Jews first and the Gentiles second, completed the Baptism of the infant assembly. Baptism of the Holy Spirit always took place upon groups of believers and never upon individuals, as the Charismatics teach today. Not once, can you find an individual being baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, all believers, OT and NT are "Born from above" and all believers have been "baptized into one Spirit", 1Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.

"We were all" baptized, (εβαπτισθημεν, Aorist Passive Indicative - Completed action in the past and the recipient was passive, (was not active in it's accomplishment but rather was acted upon.)). Both in the "New Birth" and in the once for all "Baptized", the recipient is "PASSIVE", according to the Greek verbs.

throughfaith · Nov 18, 2020

awelight said:

Nope . Regeneration ONLY happened AFTER the resurrection. This is a glaring oversight by the reformers who need to have this being the case at all times in all places.

1 Peter 1:3

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope BY THE RESURECTION of Jesus Christ from the dead,”
Titus 3:5

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

John 7:39

“(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

awelight · Nov 18, 2020

throughfaith said:

I agree with your first part of the sentence. As to the next:

- So he was unwittingly taking on Calvinstic doctrine without realising it

If Truth resides within the Doctrine, then he was "unwittingly" hearing the Truth. Your abject stand towards Calvin, does not preclude that he might have had some of the Truth. Again, it is up to each believer to test the things proclaimed and determine what the Scripture has to say, for or against. You don't through out the baby with the bath water. If I took your approach, then why read any ones work or pay attention to anything anyone has to say. One would not grow very much with this attitude.

throughfaith · Nov 18, 2020

awelight said:

I agree with your first part of the sentence. As to the next:

- So he was unwittingly taking on Calvinstic doctrine without realising it

If Truth resides within the Doctrine, then he was "unwittingly" hearing the Truth. Your abject stand towards Calvin, does not preclude that he might have had some of the Truth. Again, it is up to each believer to test the things proclaimed and determine what the Scripture has to say, for or against. You don't through out the baby with the bath water. If I took your approach, then why read any ones work or pay attention to anything anyone has to say. One would not grow very much with this attitude.

I think if we were left only with our bibles and nothing else ,we would be all the better for it . Which is an interesting thought .

throughfaith · Nov 18, 2020

awelight said:

I'm saying that if we understand Calvinisn , Arminianism, Luther ism , methodism ect we can discern if we want to absorb that particular world view or not.

awelight · Nov 18, 2020

throughfaith said:

Your proof texts do not argue against "all time" Regeneration.

1 Peter 1:3, is not talking about "Regeneration".
Titus 3:5, proves it is a "PASSIVE" work of God.

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;” This verse clearly teaches, 1) It is not of us. 2) It is His mercy being demonstrated. 3) The means is by Regeneration. 4) through the renewing of ones mind.

John 7:39 “(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)” The Lord here, is again making reference to the Spirit coming in the role of the Comforter to empower the assembly. In the KJ version, the word "given" is a supplied word and not in the text. The meaning is, that the Holy Spirit was "not yet" doing this particular office because the Saviour was still with them. You can't have both performing the same role.

This has nothing to do with the "New Birth". Certainly John 3:1-10, is not being discussed as a future event. It is being discussed as a present event.

John 3:8 The Spirit (πνευμα, spirit, wind, breath), is moving where He wills, and you are hearing (φωνην, present active indictive- voice, sound, noise), the sound thereof, but cannot not tell from where He comes (present passive indicative) , and where He is going: so is every one that has been born of the Spirit.

Here is the irrefutable clincher and where the Greek helps so much: The Greek word translated "BORN", is γεγεννημενος, it is a PERFECT Active Indicative verb. The "Perfect" tense is only found in the Greek, the English has no such tense. Being a "perfect", it means that this action - "born", began in the past, with continuing results, right on out to eternity. The perfect is often used in Scripture for things like: "It stands written" (usually translated as just "written"). But it means, it was written, it is now written and forever will be written. The perfect tense verbs, usually denote actions that are related to God and his Word are Works and not man.

awelight · Nov 18, 2020

throughfaith said:

Perhaps?

awelight · Nov 18, 2020

throughfaith said:

I think you would agree, that it is important to know what is being taught. In this way, each believer is better prepared for what they may encounter.

For me personally, I prefer to take things and discuss it in small chunks, ie....one Doctrine at a time and not try to handle questions coming from differing Doctrines or the whole of Theology, as then I do not believe that one can handle the Word of God correctly... the subject is far, far to large.

Dailyaddict71 · Nov 19, 2020

God says what he says. Nothing to speculate about. Either you believe in the Holy Spirit striving inwardly that leads a man to faith resulting in eternal salvation or you don’t. All you guys in here spend so much time debating. A lost man who doesn’t want to believe in salvation by the blood of Jesus Christ alone is going to keep believing that garbage and eventually end up in hell. Nothing you can do about it. God says in his word to trust in Jesus Christ alone(romans 3:25, 28, chapter 4, Galatians 2, Ephesians 2 8,9), or trust your works. According to Galatians 1-4 works never come into play in salvation. God declares it. Forget what I have to say, read these scriptures for yourself and ask God for wisdom. No one by his efforts in these chats can draw a man to Christ. Quit wasting your time. It takes God to draw a man. They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear him.

awelight · Nov 20, 2020

Dailyaddict71 said:

I agree with you, Salvation is all of God and His purpose will stand.

However, we do not know how God will use our witness for the Truth. We do know one of two things will happen. Either our witness in the sphere of Truth will aid another, to come to a better understanding of a Doctrine or it will be used to condemn a person because they rejected the Truth of the Gospel. Therefore conversation is important, trying to win a person to Christ is folly and only the Holy Spirit can bring one to Salvation.

throughfaith · Nov 20, 2020

Dailyaddict71 said:

God says what he says. Nothing to speculate about. Either you believe in the Holy Spirit striving inwardly that leads a man to faith resulting in eternal salvation or you don’t. All you guys in here spend so much time debating. A lost man who doesn’t want to believe in salvation by the blood of Jesus Christ alone is going to keep believing that garbage and eventually end up in hell. Nothing you can do about it. God says in his word to trust in Jesus Christ alone(romans 3:25, 28, chapter 4, Galatians 2, Ephesians 2 8,9), or trust your works. According to Galatians 1-4 works never come into play in salvation. God declares it. Forget what I have to say, read these scriptures for yourself and ask God for wisdom. No one by his efforts in these chats can draw a man to Christ. Quit wasting your time. It takes God to draw a man. They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear him.

That was never Paul's attitude.
1 Corinthians 9:22

“To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”

Budman · Nov 21, 2020

Having the Spirit "breathed on" them doesn't mean the Spirit was "in" them. They were not given the Spirit UNTIL Jesus had been glorified, as John 7:39 states: "By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."

"Not" given - "until" Jesus had been glorified.

Notice the word "when". Yes, there will be twelve thrones for twelve disciples, but only when Jesus sits on His, when the tribes will be judged. One of those thrones was destined for Matthias, because Judas' betrayal was prophesied all the way back in the Old Testament.

You'll notice Jesus never denied they did what they claimed. And how stupid would they be to make claims before Jesus on Judgement Day they knew Jesus would know to be false? If you'll remember, the magicians of Egypt could also mimic miracles - as they did before Moses.

JUDAS could not have been a devil from the beginning the bible is plain about this.

Click to expand...

The only thing you proved is your colossal ignorance of the Bible.

"Yet there are some of you who do not believe. ' For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him." (John 6:64).

Jesus associates the one who would betray him (Judas) with those who did not believe from THE BEGINNING.

Also, John 6:70 says, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” Jesus said Judas IS a devil, not "will become a devil" when Judas finally betrayed Him. And Judas proved he was a devil and not a true disciple because he was stealing money the entire time he was with Jesus and the other disciples. John said Judas was a thief in John 12:6, while Judas was still a disciple with Jesus.

I gave you a truckload of verses that prove a born again Christian cannot lose their salvation. If Judas was a Holy Spirit indwelt believer, he could not have been possessed by Satan as John 13:27 says.

Unless you believe born again Christians can be possessed. Do you?

And yet you yourself continue in sin - day in and day out - you sin every single day of your life. Unless, of course, you are willing to proclaim before us all the laughable notion you've gone an entire day without sinning.

Answer this simple question either with a "yes" or a "no".

At conversion, were all of our sins forgiven - past, present, and future?

If Jesus paid for all of ours sins, there is nothing left to pay for, let alone need forgiveness for. Unless you are claiming that only the sins we committed up until conversion were forgiven - not the ones after.

Are you?

You, by saying a born again believer can lose their salvation, are preaching a works-for-salvation gospel. No matter how much you deny it or try to spin it. That gospel would NOT be "good news" nor would "that" grace be unmerited. Those who believe such nonsense as yours, would live in constant fear and doubt, having no certainty of salvation for even a moment.

I pray you are in no position of church authority to teach anyone your twisted theology.

Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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