PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[PennEd]

let's look at the analogy again . Of course every analogy breaks down at some point . If I couldn't lift my hand up then I'd already be dead in the water . They wouldn't even see me i would have sank to the bottom of the ocean..So in the scenario i gave im in the water ( not dead yet ) and I see a hand extended to me . I lift my hand and he grabs me ,pulls me up into a helicopter and brings me safe to dry land safe and sound. So back to the bible. We are outside of christ ,lost and without hope. But then comes the Gospel. The good news . we hear it and we obey from the heart to recieve Jesus. John 1 .12

You are vascilating back and forth.

We’re you Spiritually dead before rebirth or not?

Or were you just “Mostly dead”.

 

[throughfaith]

You are vascilating back and forth.

We’re you Spiritually dead before rebirth or not?

Or were you just “Mostly dead”.

Do you have a verse that says we cannot repent and believe the Gospel until regenerated first ?

 

[PennEd]

Do you have a verse that says we cannot repent and believe the Gospel until regenerated first ?

Ephesians 2
New King James Version


By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His (great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised usup together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in Hiskindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


Notice how uncomfortable you are with the truth that you were dead BEFORE GOD made you alive. It completely destroys your doctrine.

You did NOT raise your hand. God reached down and gave you a new birth completely by Himself.

 

[throughfaith]

Ephesians 2
New King James Version


By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His (great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised usup together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in Hiskindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


Notice how uncomfortable you are with the truth that you were dead BEFORE GOD made you alive. It completely destroys your doctrine.

You did NOT raise your hand. God reached down and gave you a new birth completely by Himself.

And yet if you go back a few verses before you would have read how it happened.
13¶In whom ye also TRUSTED, after that ye heard the word of truth, THE GOSPEL of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT ye BELIEVED, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[PennEd]

And yet if you go back a few verses before you would have read how it happened.
13¶In whom ye also TRUSTED, after that ye heard the word of truth, THE GOSPEL of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT ye BELIEVED, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

That’s right, but that doesn’t change that they were dead, and that God gave them the faith to believe the Gospel they heard.

Of course He has to, because they, like us, were dead. And dead people are powerless to do anything but be dead.

It was ALL of God and by God. You did NOTHING. You did NOT raise your hand. HE saved you without any help from you at all.

 

[throughfaith]

That’s right, but that doesn’t change that they were dead, and that God gave them the faith to believe the Gospel they heard.

Of course He has to, because they, like us, were dead. And dead people are powerless to do anything but be dead.

It was ALL of God and by God. You did NOTHING. You did NOT raise your hand. HE saved you without any help from you at all.

Romans 10:17

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Not ' regeneration precedes faith '

1 Corinthians 1:21

“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

Not ' causes faith in those he saves ' lol

 

[PennEd]

Romans 10:17

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Not ' regeneration precedes faith '

1 Corinthians 1:21

“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

Not ' causes faith in those he saves ' lol

Running in circles here.
For the umpteenth time I’ve said Faith comes by hearing. But that doesn’t explain HOW you got got the Faith to believe to begin with , and why others that hear DON’T believe.

You have 2 choices.

1. God gifted you that Faith.

2. You were smarter than others to understand the Gospel.

Which is it?

 

[throughfaith]

Running in circles here.
For the umpteenth time I’ve said Faith comes by hearing. But that doesn’t explain HOW you got got the Faith to believe to begin with , and why others that hear DON’T believe.

You have 2 choices.

1. God gifted you that Faith.

2. You were smarter than others to understand the Gospel.

Which is it?

That's a false dichotomy. Your assuming in order to believe the Gospel God has to give you the super power called ' faith ' ,like its a substance or something.
This is your imaginary dilemma not mine . The bible never says man lost the ability to respond positively to his revelation ( Gospel) .
The Gospel as Corinthians makes clear is not an appeal to man's wisdom . In fact being smart is not how we obey from the heart the truth. So none of your questions hit the target because they are not biblical questions. You need to ask a biblically related question .

 

[PennEd]

That's a false dichotomy. Your assuming in order to believe the Gospel God has to give you the super power called ' faith ' ,like its a substance or something.
This is your imaginary dilemma not mine . The bible never says man lost the ability to respond positively to his revelation ( Gospel) .
The Gospel as Corinthians makes clear is not an appeal to man's wisdom . In fact being smart is not how we obey from the heart the truth. So none of your questions hit the target because they are not biblical questions. You need to ask a biblically related question .

I guess there’s no point in continuing the discussion. Every time you asked me a direct question I answered. No vacillation. No qualifications. That’s how a discussion works. And I’ve also given much Scripture to back up my answers.

I’ll try once more and then there is literally no point in continuing.

How did you get the Faith to believe the Gospel, and why do others NOT believe when they hear it?

 

[throughfaith]

I guess there’s no point in continuing the discussion. Every time you asked me a direct question I answered. No vacillation. No qualifications. That’s how a discussion works. And I’ve also given much Scripture to back up my answers.

I’ll try once more and then there is literally no point in continuing.

How did you get the Faith to believe the Gospel, and why do others NOT believe when they hear it?

1) is a nonsensical question . Faith is not a object. We put OUR faith in God. We obey from the heart the Gospel truth .
Others place their faith in the wrong things . It Does not please God when we don't trust in him .

2) Different people will give different reasons .

 

[throughfaith]

I guess there’s no point in continuing the discussion. Every time you asked me a direct question I answered. No vacillation. No qualifications. That’s how a discussion works. And I’ve also given much Scripture to back up my answers.

I’ll try once more and then there is literally no point in continuing.

How did you get the Faith to believe the Gospel, and why do others NOT believe when they hear it?

Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

 

[PennEd]

1) is a nonsensical question . Faith is not a object. We put OUR faith in God. We obey from the heart the Gospel truth .
Others place their faith in the wrong things . It Does not please God when we don't trust in him .

2) Different people will give different reasons .

Boast away!

We both know why you won’t answer. So have fun in your thread. No sense talking to you anymore. But since your a must have last word guy, have at it!

 

[throughfaith]

Boast away!

We both know why you won’t answer. So have fun in your thread. No sense talking to you anymore. But since your a must have last word guy, have at it!

9Not of works , lest any man should boast. Believing is not works . So no boasting. To ask " where did you get your believing from " is a little odd to say the least . 1 cor 1.21 .

 

[throughfaith]

Boast away!

We both know why you won’t answer. So have fun in your thread. No sense talking to you anymore. But since your a must have last word guy, have at it!

No one ever said to their wives ," The reason i have faith in you and trust and believe you is because i have been gifted this. Its nothing to do with your character or what you say and what you have done. No no i could never have done that on my own .

 

[fredoheaven]

1 Cor. 12:9 might be a good verse in support of "gifting by faith", being one of the many gifts of the Holy Spirit, however, those spiritual gifts in 1 Cor. 12 are given after our salvation and are not in reference to before salvation.

 

[soggykitten]

I would pray that people, especially new Christians, know that the doctrines within Arminian theology and Calvinist, are not the only doctrines pertaining to our faith.