When did the church begin ?
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who was Naaman - a Gentile who did not become a proselyte Jew - baptized into?
when Christ's disciples were baptizing, and John when approached over the issue by his own disciples, saying, they are baptizing more than you, who were the apostles baptizing into? were they just performing John's baptism? if so why would John's disciples be raising issue over it?
when Christ's disciples were baptizing, and John when approached over the issue by his own disciples, saying, they are baptizing more than you, who were the apostles baptizing into? were they just performing John's baptism? if so why would John's disciples be raising issue over it?
based on what?
the premise that there is no church until the Holy Spirit is poured out? that would make it on or before Acts 2, certainly no later than Pentecost. yet the disciples were already manifest: who were they the day before Shavuot? not His church?
couldn't i equally say, because we have not yet been given complete knowledge and haven't received glorified bodies and seen His face, that there is no such thing as 'Christians' until after the resurrection & the last day?
i can see the argument that it is Acts 2, clearly, tho i would still question it. i really can't see an argument that it's not until some time later holding water. Pentecost was akin to Mt. Sinai in many ways, but the Israelites were already His people before this day - they didn't suddenly become His at that time - for He brought 'His people' out of Egypt; they were His even while they were in bondage there; their redemption or the sealing of His covenant with them did not bring about their existence.
the premise that there is no church until the Holy Spirit is poured out? that would make it on or before Acts 2, certainly no later than Pentecost. yet the disciples were already manifest: who were they the day before Shavuot? not His church?
couldn't i equally say, because we have not yet been given complete knowledge and haven't received glorified bodies and seen His face, that there is no such thing as 'Christians' until after the resurrection & the last day?
i can see the argument that it is Acts 2, clearly, tho i would still question it. i really can't see an argument that it's not until some time later holding water. Pentecost was akin to Mt. Sinai in many ways, but the Israelites were already His people before this day - they didn't suddenly become His at that time - for He brought 'His people' out of Egypt; they were His even while they were in bondage there; their redemption or the sealing of His covenant with them did not bring about their existence.
B
Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth. Yeah I know he wanted a more material answer, so some could say pentecost, and some could say at the cross and, others could say at the baptism of Jesus, and so on and so forth, but I say a thing begin at it conceptual planning. So God planned all this out before begining to create it. Therefore all the creation, the fall and the time of Abraham, and Moses, all along was the building of the church. And the church is still being built. Christ will complete it when he returns.
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If by "the church," one means "everyone who will be with God in the eternal kingdom", then... Genesis. If by "the church," one means everyone who consciously, knowingly believes in Jesus Christ for salvation, then... Matthew.
I still maintain that for believers today, the question is essentially irrelevant. It's an exercise in speculation.
I still maintain that for believers today, the question is essentially irrelevant. It's an exercise in speculation.
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