Back-loading Works into the Gospel:

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Christ said if you love me you will obey me. Can loving the Lord so you want to obey Him be done without discipline that asceticism is?

Why do you suppose so many posts are telling us to be very careful of working for the Lord or trying to obey? Scripture tells us that if you love me you will obey me. Posts say that is working for salvation, the Lord says it is working for Him. I'll go by scripture.
The bible clearly teaches that salvation is through grace not works. To elevate works to the status of merit in attaining or maintaining salvation is to nullify grace.

It is foolish to teach that asceticism is meritorious in the believers life. Paul speaks of the great liberty we have in Christ and that we are freed from the bonds of asceticism.

Those who have received the genuine gospel know that works flow out of Christ in us not from us into Christ. What can we possibly do that Christ has not already done perfectly for us? What can we give God that He does not already have?

Those who endeavor to worship God in the reverse of what God has written serve only themselves. They in fact condemn themselves by acting in that fashion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,999
113
Even after the indwelling of the Holy Spirit there isn't one day were you do not sin against the living God? Not even on your worship day do you remain holy and set apart?
No. Have you?

I'm going through such an extreme example because I'm looking for the point in time in which you believe you're actually not sinning. Can a believer not sin for at least 1 minute?
Extreme examples are misleading. That's like saying, "will you hunger when you're dead?"

Yes. One can certainly go without sinning for a minute. A whole day? Imma gonna say no to that again.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5)

We are all born with a sinful nature.
Yes all have the fallen nature of this flesh when born here because of Adam's sin, including the Messiah. But to sin is to transgress the law. A newborn can't sin.

Being "brought forth in iniquity" was a phrase that usually meant a child from fornication; a child out of wedlock. Notice it says "conceived" in sin.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
The bible clearly teaches that salvation is through grace not works. To elevate works to the status of merit in attaining or maintaining salvation is to nullify grace.

It is foolish to teach that asceticism is meritorious in the believers life. Paul speaks of the great liberty we have in Christ and that we are freed from the bonds of asceticism.

Those who have received the genuine gospel know that works flow out of Christ in us not from us into Christ. What can we possibly do that Christ has not already done perfectly for us? What can we give God that He does not already have?

Those who endeavor to worship God in the reverse of what God has written serve only themselves. They in fact condemn themselves by acting in that fashion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Do you think that a human should not work for the Lord because he is human and is only righteous through Christ? Scripture says in many places that if you love me you will obey me. That is works. Now, are you teaching against this scripture?

Do you really think that "works won't save" truth is a warning to us to be very careful of our works? Or does the Lord let us free to love Him and work for Him?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,999
113
Yes all have the fallen nature of this flesh when born here because of Adam's sin, including the Messiah. But to sin is to transgress the law. A newborn can't sin.

Being "brought forth in iniquity" was a phrase that usually meant a child from fornication; a child out of wedlock. Notice it says "conceived" in sin.
A child who lies has no concept of the Law - and yet it is certainly sin. When child is disobedient to their parents, it is certainly sin - though they have no concept of the Law.

Now, do I believe in an "age of accountability"? - yes, I do. Do I believe the mentally handicapped go to heaven? Yes, I do. Even though they aren't certainly aren't sinless. If they were, the Bible is in error when it says there is none righteous - no not one. And all have fallen short of the glory of God.

None means none, and all means all.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
No. Have you? [Even on your worship day remained holy and set apart?]
Until sunset I have spent certain sabbaths praying, fasting, and watching (or listening to) sermons or bible study sessions alone, just me and the Father. Does it happen every day? No.. does it happen every sabbath? No.. but it has happened.


Extreme examples are misleading. That's like saying, "will you hunger when you're dead?"

Yes. One can certainly go without sinning for a minute. A whole day? Imma gonna say no to that again.
What about the 2-3hrs you're in the Almighty's prescience during your time of worship? Do you sin?

A child who lies has no concept of the Law - and yet it is certainly sin. When child is disobedient to their parents, it is certainly sin - though they have no concept of the Law.

Now, do I believe in an "age of accountability"? - yes, I do. Do I believe the mentally handicapped go to heaven? Yes, I do. Even though they aren't certainly aren't sinless. If they were, the Bible is in error when it says there is none righteous - no not one. And all have fallen short of the glory of God.

None means none, and all means all.
I agree with the other stuff but we're talking about a newborn...not a child. A baby does not sin. Yes, agreed when they get older and are no longer babies they sin, even as the smallest child who disobeys their parents or lies, but a baby doesn't. Wouldn't you agree?

----

But lets return to the example of the lying child:

Truly, the child lies, having no concept of the law.

Ok with that established, in the process of SAVING that child from that sin, wouldn't we first need to tell that child their lying is a sin? That it's wrong to do in the eyes of the Almighty?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,999
113
Until sunset I have spent certain sabbaths praying, fasting, and watching (or listening to) sermons or bible study sessions alone, just me and the Father. Does it happen every day? No.. does it happen every sabbath? No.. but it has happened.
And not a single sinful thought entered your head the whole day, huh?

What about the 2-3hrs you're in the Almighty's prescience during your time of worship? Do you sin?
We are still in the flesh. While in the flesh we will sin either by thought, word, or deed.

Even during times of worship?

Yes.

I agree with the other stuff but we're talking about a newborn...not a child. A baby does not sin. Yes, agreed when they get older and are no longer babies they sin, even as the smallest child who disobeys their parents or lies, but a baby doesn't. Wouldn't you agree?
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." (Psalm 58:3)

Who are the wicked?

Anyone who has not been born again.

Does that include babies?

Yes.

The sinful nature we are all born with doesn't just kick in when we are made aware of the Law. Our sinful nature comes into existence at the moment of conception.

If the Law was needed to kick-start our sinful nature, the best plan would be to NEVER teach anyone the Law.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
The bible clearly teaches that salvation is through grace not works. To elevate works to the status of merit in attaining or maintaining salvation is to nullify grace.

It is foolish to teach that asceticism is meritorious in the believers life. Paul speaks of the great liberty we have in Christ and that we are freed from the bonds of asceticism.

Those who have received the genuine gospel know that works flow out of Christ in us not from us into Christ. What can we possibly do that Christ has not already done perfectly for us? What can we give God that He does not already have?

Those who endeavor to worship God in the reverse of what God has written serve only themselves. They in fact condemn themselves by acting in that fashion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
It seems to me absolutely wrong to say if you accept grace then works cannot be "a state of merit". We are to die to self and live through Christ, and how would it be possible to not value working for the Lord if we live through Christ?

If Christ is within us, and we, as a product of Christ, deny ourselves work for the Lord, then it is Christ within us who is refusing to work and that cannot be. Christ is a servant. To refuse to work for the Lord is to deny Christ within.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Hello John, the phrase "in the faith" is used several times in the NT, by Luke (in Acts), as well by Paul and Peter. As far as what it means, like so many other words, phrases, verses, etc., it's important to look carefully at what the verse or passage that it's found in is saying, as well, at the overall context (I am, BTW, aware that you are already aware of this fact). This is necessary concerning the phrase, "in the faith", because it means different things in different passages in the Bible.

In the case of 2 Corinthians 13:5, I believe that taking a careful look at what the verse itself says (particularly the second half) is enough to conclude what the meaning is, though the surrounding context is helpful as well. I also believe that the KJV translation makes the meaning clearer, so here is v5 again in that translation.

2 Corinthians 13
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, ~except ye be reprobates?~

The context (which includes the first 10 verses of Chapter 13) is one of Paul defending his Apostleship to some troublemakers in the church at Corinth (to those who were questioning whether it .. and he .. were the real McCoy/the genuine article .. or not). Paul, as their undoubted father in the faith, tells them to examine and test themselves to see if they are "in the faith" (which in this case seems to clearly mean "in Christ"), and that if they discover that they are genuinely saved, then ~they themselves~ are the Apostle's testimony and evidence that both he and his apostleship are, indeed, the genuine article (because the WONDERFUL/WONDROUS transformation that took place in the lives of so many of the Corinthians could scarcely have come through a false teacher. ~MacDonald, W. Believer’s Bible Commentary).

You make an interesting point however, and I intend to look into it further. All of my commentaries, except two of them (MacDonald and MacArthur) see "in the faith" in v5 as being equivalent in meaning to "in Christ" (MacArthur and MacDonald seem to see v5's "in the faith" both ways, MacArthur going so far as to divide the verse into a first and a second half).

And just FYI, MacDonald agrees with you (and so do I) that the Scriptures are our principle source of assurance, at least in the sense of 'first and foremost', but he (like every other theologian) goes on to say that our assurance is also tied in with the things that accompany our salvation .. Hebrews 6:9, with the "fruit" that results from God's mighty work in us to change us, regenerate and save us, and make us His workmanship, as wholly new creatures in Christ. MacDonald also says that such evidence/"fruit" in the lives of true believers is something that becomes more and more apparent in a maturing believer (which is why he points to the Scriptures as that which is first and foremost among the things that give us assurance that we are truly saved).

God bless you!

~Deut
“Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith” (vs. 5). “The faith” is more than just salvation. Usually this part of verse 5 is used to urge a person to make sure he is saved. But it is more than that. “The faith” is the full body of Christian doctrine. It is used the same way in Jude 3: “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” To “be in the faith” is to be established in what you are supposed to believe as a Christian.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes all have the fallen nature of this flesh when born here because of Adam's sin, including the Messiah. But to sin is to transgress the law. A newborn can't sin.

Being "brought forth in iniquity" was a phrase that usually meant a child from fornication; a child out of wedlock. Notice it says "conceived" in sin.
Sin is much more than transgressing the Law, there are many more sins than the law shows. in fact, I can keep the law perfectly (if it were possible) and still sin.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
It seems to me absolutely wrong to say if you accept grace then works cannot be "a state of merit". We are to die to self and live through Christ, and how would it be possible to not value working for the Lord if we live through Christ?

If Christ is within us, and we, as a product of Christ, deny ourselves work for the Lord, then it is Christ within us who is refusing to work and that cannot be. Christ is a servant. To refuse to work for the Lord is to deny Christ within.
It is simple yet impossible for those who are a product of a corrupted gospel to comprehend. It is all about heart attitude. The motive behind the work.

Jesus said these people serve with their lips but their heart is far from God.

Pr 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
And not a single sinful thought entered your head the whole day, huh?
There are times when they do and when they don't. Sinful thoughts entered the Messiah's mind during His 40 day trial in the wilderness. Satan tempted Him 3 times, telling what he could do. But being tempted to sin isn't sinning. It's when we let those temptations conceive that they give birth to sin.


We are still in the flesh. While in the flesh we will sin either by thought, word, or deed.

Even during times of worship?

Yes.
I guess you choose to call those things that are not as though they were with regard to future sins. I can't force you to change what you have faith in.


"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." (Psalm 58:3)

Who are the wicked?

Anyone who has not been born again.

Does that include babies?

Yes.
Wait, a baby directly from the womb can speak to lie?? The writer is using exaggeration to make a point about the wicked. It's as if someone were to say about you, "Budman was preaching from the womb!"

A sin is an act of transgressing the law of The Almighty. A newborn baby can't act for themselves in any capacity.

This psalm is making a comparison between the righteous and the wicked. This is how the chapter ends:

Psalm 58:10-11
10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth



The sinful nature we are all born with doesn't just kick in when we are made aware of the Law. Our sinful nature comes into existence at the moment of conception.

If the Law was needed to kick-start our sinful nature, the best plan would be to NEVER teach anyone the Law.
Please reread what you posted here highlighted in red, as maybe you'll want to rephrase or reconsider. It's indirectly implying that the Almighty's plan to give the law first wasn't the best plan; that He somehow had to come up with a better plan, like He made a mistake...

Yah is not a man. Nothing occurs to Him. He doesn't exist moment by moment as we do. He doesn't need to see how things play out and then make adjustments. He is beginning and end, who was, is, and will be all at once.

...This is an immutable truth, so if our concept of the law is in conflict with this immutable truth we need to consider a change in our understanding of the law.

Secondly, please reread what I've been posting. Never once did I say or imply that the law was provided to kickstart or establish sin. Once again, I said the law was provided first to show what IS sin in the process of salvation. This is what Paul says.

It's the equivalent to flipping on a light switch in a dark room.

Can't see what's dirty unless a light is shone upon it. Is the area still dirty with the light off? Yes. But need to see what needs cleaning.

Can't provide a solution to a specific problem if one doesn't first know what the problem is.

If something is malfunctioning one must be made aware of the instructions to know how it's meant to run properly before one can fix the malfunction.

We have a mortal nature that compels us to sin, because of death. The law had to be given first to show HOW a person is sinful. The Messiah was given second for salvation from those sins...and then we are told to "fly right" (i.e. obey). If the law wasn't necessary in this process, then repentance wouldn't be necessary either...we wouldn't even need to know about The Messiah or need to believe in Him. He could just do the work and we keep on living however we want.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
Sin is much more than transgressing the Law, there are many more sins than the law shows. in fact, I can keep the law perfectly (if it were possible) and still sin.
Can you provide an example or two of what you mean?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
It is simple yet impossible for those who are a product of a corrupted gospel to comprehend. It is all about heart attitude. The motive behind the work.

Jesus said these people serve with their lips but their heart is far from God.

Pr 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Roger, you are changing the subject. We are speaking of what our attitude toward works should be. Your post has down played works. I don't think the Lord wants us to disregard working for Him as a saved person, I am objecting to your statement that works are not important. I don't appreciate your turning that into "my heart is far from God".

1 John 5: 2 By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Can you provide an example or two of what you mean?
to the one who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin

love your neighbor, who is your neighbor? Anyone you come in contact, be it friend, enemy or anyone else

speed limit 55, you decide your going to go 56

no littering, you throw a small peace of trash out your car window

how many would you like?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Roger, you are changing the subject. We are speaking of what our attitude toward works should be. Your post has down played works. I don't think the Lord wants us to disregard working for Him as a saved person, I am objecting to your statement that works are not important. I don't appreciate your turning that into "my heart is far from God".

1 John 5: 2 By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome
Nope, we are talking works to earn or maintain salvation. Vs works which come from faith
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
to the one who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin

love your neighbor, who is your neighbor? Anyone you come in contact, be it friend, enemy or anyone else

speed limit 55, you decide your going to go 56

no littering, you throw a small peace of trash out your car window

how many would you like?
You said "sin is much more than transgressing the law (of the Almighty)" and that one could (potentially) keep the law perfectly and still sin.

You gave examples of things found in the law of the Almighty and/or examples of laws in other countries.

We know the law is love, as it is explained. So I was wondering about examples where one can keep the law perfectly and yet still sin, because such a statement seems like a contradiction unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You said "sin is much more than transgressing the law (of the Almighty)" and that one could (potentially) keep the law perfectly and still sin.

You gave examples of things found in the law of the Almighty and/or examples of laws in other countries.

We know the law is love, as it is explained. So I was wondering about examples where one can keep the law perfectly and yet still sin, because such a statement seems like a contradiction unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning.
Lol nothing I wrote was included in “The Law”

come now doing try to change the subject

laws are written to be able to convict law breakers. No law would mean men could do as they want with no punishment

they are not made to show one how to live
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
Nope, we are talking works to earn or maintain salvation. Vs works which come from faith
Christ did not work to maintain salvation, and we are to put on Christ. If works are obeying the law, then if we put on Christ we put on the works of Christ. Christ forgives our lack of works, it is our salvation.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Christ did not work to maintain salvation,
nope he did not, he worked so we could be saved, he is the only one who could.

and we are to put on Christ. If works are obeying the law, then if we put on Christ we put on the works of Christ. Christ forgives our lack of works, it is our salvation.
Christ beyed the law of love, in doing so, as he said he fulfilled the law

christ did not look To the law. he looked to his father, I suggest you do the same