Good and Evil.

[Ramon]

Come on vikki, I know you have one for this.

It is a case of good versus evil. Yes, the old story, but not so old.

But what is good and what is evil?

Strange thing, many people do evil but praise good. Hmm. Strange indeed. One person says they are a Christian but then they break natural laws, does a Christian have a right not to pay taxes because God is good? Get serious and stop skipping out on Jesus.

I wonder more and more, how many people serve Jesus, and how many people just claim him. I am sure these are the people who he will say to, ''go away from me, I never knew you.'' What a shame to live your whole life as a lie and then, thinking you have it in the bag, face Jesus and he calls you a person full of iniquity?

So, what is the will of God? I will say this of a person on this site, her name is pickles. She is my friend. And a person sinnomore, he is my friend. And I could name others, they do the will of God very well. How so? Isn't the will of God to love one another and to comfort the broken hearted? To proclaim the GOOD NEWS of salvation through Jesus Christ. Do you think that my words on this site are the will of God? NO WAY!! This is how I love the Body of Christ, we are all made for edification of the Body, that is why the Lord was so gracious to give us gifts. Yet people of the body want no gifts? Well, if you will not take them, I will.

So what is good?

1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. *
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 ¶Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

That is good, but who has been good? NO ONE!!!

So who can be saved?

John 3:14 ¶And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 ¶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 ¶He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But does it stop here?

Matt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And here?

Matt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

So Remember:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2

 

[Red_Tory]

Romans 13 instructs Christians to pay taxes because governments are supposed to be God's earthly agents that protect what is good and punish the wicked... I think it's not an issue of the amount of money the authorites demand in the form of taxation but instead an issue of how this money is used by the government. As a Canadian I typically pay a higher percentage than many Americans, but I believe that in many cases this money is used for Godly purposes, and don't have any qualms about paying it.

 

[Forlorn-Hope]

Without evil there can be no good so it must be good to be evil sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!! (sings southpark song totally out of tune)

 

[Ramon]

Without evil there can be no good so it must be good to be evil sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!! (sings southpark song totally out of tune)

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Romans 3

 

[VikkiKate89]

Hahaha nice to see you think of me Ramon.

The only thing I really have to say to this thread is there's a reason I don't proclaim to be a Christian, and it's because I certainly don't live the life. I believe in the possibility of a higher power/God, however I don't agree with any of the major religions and I don't believe the Bible is 100% fact and is at best a good book to at least learn some valuable lessons for day to day life but is meant to be taken more symbolically rather than literally. So if the whole bit about people who claim to be Christians but are liars was targeted at me, sorry but I don't fall in that category because I never proclaimed to be one. When it comes to things that can easily influence people, like religious beliefs, I try to be as open and honest about mine as possible.

 

[Ramon]

Hahaha nice to see you think of me Ramon.

The only thing I really have to say to this thread is there's a reason I don't proclaim to be a Christian, and it's because I certainly don't live the life. I believe in the possibility of a higher power/God, however I don't agree with any of the major religions and I don't believe the Bible is 100% fact and is at best a good book to at least learn some valuable lessons for day to day life but is meant to be taken more symbolically rather than literally. So if the whole bit about people who claim to be Christians but are liars was targeted at me, sorry but I don't fall in that category because I never proclaimed to be one. When it comes to things that can easily influence people, like religious beliefs, I try to be as open and honest about mine as possible.

Hahaha. It sounds like you were raised in a good Christian home vikki, something you not telling everyone? LOL!

Anyhow. I know where you are coming from, but this is a major issue as you say. This is the first step to finding the truth being honest right? Want me to tell you how honest I used to be? (I am not proud of this).

I grew up in a ''good Christian home'' also. But I tell you the truth I was dead in those churches, and the churches were dead too. I got tired of the hypocrisy. And it seemed all of them were just fakes.

Anyhow, you got it all wrong to say that you can't be a Christian if you don't live the Christian life, because the prejudice of a Christian life is a faux pas with God. You see a whole bunch of people who look good on the outside, but inside they are wolves. Now, you might paint a picture of Jesus as this good guy who spoke all lovey dovey with people all the time. But look at what he said to these types of people:

Matt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Matt 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Matt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Matt 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

When I read this for the first time I was like, YEAH YEAH TELL THEM, YEAH I AM SICK OF THIS MESS! THE HYPOCRISY WOW JESUS IS REAL!!

He called them white washed graves, they appear beautiful outward but inside are full of dead men's bones. But now this makes me afraid. Because I see how these things come about.

The Christian life is hardly the stigma Americans have made it. The Christian life is the one that follows Jesus, not ordinances of men to be accepted in some type of group:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 ¶And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Matthew 6

So I follow Jesus not men nor doctrine. And some people have an issue with this, because they don't follow Jesus but tradition. May Jesus bless you.

 

[Forlorn-Hope]

Theres no point replying to me by quoting scripture

 

[Red_Tory]

Without evil there can be no good so it must be good to be evil sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!! (sings southpark song totally out of tune)

What is this, the Chewbacca defence? Gosh.

 

[Forlorn-Hope]

haha "This is chewbacca he is a wookie"

 

[Ramon]

Theres no point replying to me by quoting scripture

The scripture was quoting you.

 

[Red33]

Hahaha nice to see you think of me Ramon.

The only thing I really have to say to this thread is there's a reason I don't proclaim to be a Christian, and it's because I certainly don't live the life. I believe in the possibility of a higher power/God, however I don't agree with any of the major religions and I don't believe the Bible is 100% fact and is at best a good book to at least learn some valuable lessons for day to day life but is meant to be taken more symbolically rather than literally. So if the whole bit about people who claim to be Christians but are liars was targeted at me, sorry but I don't fall in that category because I never proclaimed to be one. When it comes to things that can easily influence people, like religious beliefs, I try to be as open and honest about mine as possible.

Is it really the words of scripture in the Bible that keeps you in unbelief or is there something closer to your heart? Do you want to believe but something deep in your heart hinders you from believing?

 

[Forlorn-Hope]

The scripture was quoting you.

Are you.. Are you insane

 

[VikkiKate89]

Is it really the words of scripture in the Bible that keeps you in unbelief or is there something closer to your heart? Do you want to believe but something deep in your heart hinders you from believing?

It's a combination of things. As far as the Bible is concerned, while I think the majority of it is meant to be taken symbolically and not literally, like the story of Noah's Ark for example (you can't fit all those animals in one boat that's specifically the size listed, let alone still have enough room for food or the people on board), there are some messages in it I just flat out do not agree with. Like calling homosexuality an abomination for example. But I have already argued my case on that many a time in different threads on this site so if you really wanna know my stance on it you can look in that "Gay Christian?" thread in the Young Adults section. I know I've voiced my opinion several times there.

But there are other things about the Bible that seriously make me question its validity. Aside from numerous conflicts in translations and the, I will admit, overused argument of "It was written by man," that I already know will get ignored because it was "inspired by God" or "God breathed," so it's not worth re-stating, there's the fact that there are actual omitted books from the Bible, and if this book is supposed to be so essential for our souls, why do we ignore that? Why are we okay that there are parts of it missing? And then you throw in the fact that the Bible as it is now is constantly being translated differently by people who are interpreting it in their own way (you'll notice that there are no 2 Christians who believe the exact same thing on every aspect of life) which leaves even more room for error, in my opinion.

I think the Bible has a lot of good lessons for daily living and how to be a good person, but I don't believe it to be 100% fact, and if my soul depended on me knowing some ultimate truth, the Bible is probably not the first place I'd look.

 

[VikkiKate89]

Hahaha. It sounds like you were raised in a good Christian home vikki, something you not telling everyone? LOL!

Actually my parents are extremely devout Christians (a shock I guess considering the wicked heathen I turned out to be, right? lol). My Dad became one when he was around my age (developed a crush on a girl from the local church and she intrigued him into going. It didn't work out with them but he found God instead and never turned back). My mom has always been a very godly woman. She's one of the people where there's no question she believes what she says she does, and she definitely loves God. My sister and I however, we don't share their enthusiasm. And it's pretty much killed our relationships with them, mostly our mom, because to her the only thing she cares about is our spiritual lives and our walk with God, and it's more than a little frustrating to say the least.

 

[Michelle94]

I agree with the definition given by Church of Satan founder Anton Szandor LaVey: Good is whatever you like, Evil is whatever you don't like.

...in other words, it's all subjective.

You've heard the phrase "one man's garbage is another man's treasure"? We all have different standards and morality. There are different levels of acceptence. Much of this is based on how you were raised and education, I believe. There are plenty of extremists that would say all of you are evil for using this computer you are using right now. The computer is The Devil's tool, didnt you know? We all have our own perspectives. Good and Evil are adjusted accordingly.

It still behooves a select few to argue the inargueable. Personally, I am extremely intolerant to intolerance. I can't stand isolation and ridicule for ones beliefs. Also, I'd like to quote my favourite comdedian George Carlin: "Leave People Alone! And keep thy religion and morality to thyself!"


michelle-

 

[Ramon]

I agree with the definition given by Church of Satan founder Anton Szandor LaVey: Good is whatever you like, Evil is whatever you don't like.

...in other words, it's all subjective.

You've heard the phrase "one man's garbage is another man's treasure"? We all have different standards and morality. There are different levels of acceptence. Much of this is based on how you were raised and education, I believe. There are plenty of extremists that would say all of you are evil for using this computer you are using right now. The computer is The Devil's tool, didnt you know? We all have our own perspectives. Good and Evil are adjusted accordingly.

It still behooves a select few to argue the inargueable. Personally, I am extremely intolerant to intolerance. I can't stand isolation and ridicule for ones beliefs. Also, I'd like to quote my favourite comdedian George Carlin: "Leave People Alone! And keep thy religion and morality to thyself!"


michelle-

Michelle94 you agree with a lie. You agree with the idea Satan has promoted even in the church of our Lord Jesus. Good is NOT whatever you like and evil is NOT whatever you don't like. What is wrong!!?? And NO! It is not subjective. You do indeed agree with the church of Satan, and that church is being filled each day with souls. And this church is hell.

 

[Red_Tory]

I agree with the definition given by Church of Satan founder Anton Szandor LaVey: Good is whatever you like, Evil is whatever you don't like.

...in other words, it's all subjective.

You've heard the phrase "one man's garbage is another man's treasure"? We all have different standards and morality. There are different levels of acceptence. Much of this is based on how you were raised and education, I believe. There are plenty of extremists that would say all of you are evil for using this computer you are using right now. The computer is The Devil's tool, didnt you know? We all have our own perspectives. Good and Evil are adjusted accordingly.

It still behooves a select few to argue the inargueable. Personally, I am extremely intolerant to intolerance. I can't stand isolation and ridicule for ones beliefs. Also, I'd like to quote my favourite comdedian George Carlin: "Leave People Alone! And keep thy religion and morality to thyself!"


michelle-

*sigh* Plurality of personal values does not imply relativity of truth or morality.
I think you're making an unjustified logical leap in assuming this. There may be extremists who say that we are all evil, but you seem to simply ignore the logical implications of this statement:

Person A asserts that everyone is evil.

Either we are all evil

Or

We are not all evil



This is tertium non datur, the excluded middle. Either A or not A - there is no possible compromise or alternate option. This entails one of two possibilities: either the extremists are wrong or they are right. It's not subjective, it's not a "matter of opinion", nor does it depend one one's education.

This is not to say that people hold different opinions. People have different ideas about what is good or evil and good for them, but the fact remains that reality will not adapt accordingly to our personal beliefs.


As for "keeping morality to yourself", I would hope that anyone with half a brain could see that this is not only extremely impractical but also completely illogical and self-refuting.

 

[Michelle94]

*sigh* Plurality of personal values does not imply relativity of truth or morality.
I think you're making an unjustified logical leap in assuming this. There may be extremists who say that we are all evil, but you seem to simply ignore the logical implications of this statement:

Person A asserts that everyone is evil.

Either we are all evil

Or

We are not all evil



This is tertium non datur, the excluded middle. Either A or not A - there is no possible compromise or alternate option. This entails one of two possibilities: either the extremists are wrong or they are right. It's not subjective, it's not a "matter of opinion", nor does it depend one one's education.

This is not to say that people hold different opinions. People have different ideas about what is good or evil and good for them, but the fact remains that reality will not adapt accordingly to our personal beliefs.quote]



Sorry, I just don't believe it is that simple or that black and white. There are many colors in the rainbow and many shades of right and wrong. Life is about balance. Life is that grey area, and we are all colors. Just like sanity and insanity. There are plenty of degrees. I could give many examples of how our culture is completely insane and stupid. That doesnt make me right or wrong.

What is reality? I did a paper once around a quote "The ability to enjoy life is measured by ones imagination".

*if imagination is key to happiness, does that make happiness unreal?

What is reality? If we all believe, then it does become a reality. Because it wasnt real before.

I'm just going to stop this train of thought right now before I get waaay too off topic.

But my point is, I don't think anyone or anything dictates right or wrong. It is NOT that black and white. I gave you ONE random example of what I'd call "extremist" or extreme behaviour. There are all sorts of other examples.

It is certainly based around opinion and perspectiveand the way people are raised. Education does definately play a role in some parts. Generally, superstitious people are not very highly educated. It was a medieval superstition that black cats are bad luck and if you break a mirror you will have 7 years of disaster. You don't need to be a genius to realize the insanity of these claims.

Suppose there is a large group of people morally astounded by black cats. Let's say this group of people is in the millions. I think they are wrong and dangerous and insane. But it's still my opinion against theirs. I could demonstrate tests to prove that black cats are not evil. That bad luck does not occur when in their company.

Other moral and ethical issues are not so easily defined. I don't think there is anything wrong with pornography. If consenting adults choose to tape themselves. And they agree to allow you to watch. And you choose to, under your own free will. Why should someone tell me I'm wrong for watching?

Meh. Sorry for the rant and getting a bit off topic.

 

[Red_Tory]

Sorry, I just don't believe it is that simple or that black and white. There are many colors in the rainbow and many shades of right and wrong. Life is about balance. Life is that grey area, and we are all colors. Just like sanity and insanity. There are plenty of degrees. I could give many examples of how our culture is completely insane and stupid. That doesnt make me right or wrong.

What is reality? I did a paper once around a quote "The ability to enjoy life is measured by ones imagination".

*if imagination is key to happiness, does that make happiness unreal?

What is reality? If we all believe, then it does become a reality. Because it wasnt real before.

I'm just going to stop this train of thought right now before I get waaay too off topic.

But my point is, I don't think anyone or anything dictates right or wrong. It is NOT that black and white. I gave you ONE random example of what I'd call "extremist" or extreme behaviour. There are all sorts of other examples.

It is certainly based around opinion and perspectiveand the way people are raised. Education does definately play a role in some parts. Generally, superstitious people are not very highly educated. It was a medieval superstition that black cats are bad luck and if you break a mirror you will have 7 years of disaster. You don't need to be a genius to realize the insanity of these claims.

Suppose there is a large group of people morally astounded by black cats. Let's say this group of people is in the millions. I think they are wrong and dangerous and insane. But it's still my opinion against theirs. I could demonstrate tests to prove that black cats are not evil. That bad luck does not occur when in their company.

Other moral and ethical issues are not so easily defined. I don't think there is anything wrong with pornography. If consenting adults choose to tape themselves. And they agree to allow you to watch. And you choose to, under your own free will. Why should someone tell me I'm wrong for watching?

Meh. Sorry for the rant and getting a bit off topic.

Well, you may say it's not black and white, but I'm fairly sure that this logical principle will apply to most cases (I say most because I'm fairly sure it applies to all, but I have yet to see someone come up with a case where it does not).

As for your example on an ethical issue, it fits in perfectly.

"Other moral and ethical issues are not so easily defined. I don't think there is anything wrong with pornography. If consenting adults choose to tape themselves. And they agree to allow you to watch. And you choose to, under your own free will. Why should someone tell me I'm wrong for watching?"

Same process as the extremists:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Person A asserts that it is wrong to watch pornographic material.

Either it is wrong to watch pornographic material

Or

It is not wrong to watch pornographic material
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Can you propose a third alternative?

There could be variables as to the nature of the material (e.g. "is it violent", "does it degrade one part?" etc.), but this would simply shift the boundaries of the question and has no real implications.

Ethical issues are easily defined, but this doesn't mean they're easily answered. I'm not saying it's particularly easy (sometimes to the point of frustration and near-impossibility with endless bickering) to determine the answer; I'm saying that there is indeed a definitive answer, and it's one of those two options (it may be the case that it isn't wrong, in which case the person who's telling you that is incorrect)

Morality is black and white - simple logical principles dictate that it is so. That doesn't mean it's always simple to determine the answer.