Not By Works

[Budman]

I hate to quibble with your premise, but using your numbers, wouldn’t he be committing 67,200 sins not 336,600 sins in ten years?

Yep.

That's what I get for using a Dollar store calculator.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

View attachment 223403
Baptisms of US Troops in IRAQ.


Colossians 2:13 (NCV)
13 When you were spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were not free from the power of your sinful self, God made you alive with Christ, and he forgave all our sins.


God made me alive in CHRIST, I KNOW the Holy Spirit is in me, I KNOW the Spiritual Mind of Christ is in me, and I KNOW HIM PERSONALLY, and it will NEVER END. My born again experience was the 29 of Dec, 1977; and I am sure it will last the rest of may days.
I will turn 72 in Feb. I have already had 7 strokes, 2 Big Ones, and 5 mini ones. So I am still here, because HE HAS SOMETHING MORE FOR ME TO DO. But I am READY TO GO HOME.

I understand where you are coming from. Even through your setbacks, it seems that God is blessing you. I have no doubt that you have been born again to a spiritual life, and that the Holy Ghost dwells within you. I am 86 years old, and am blessed by God beyond my deserving. He delivered (saved) me from dying when my brother accidently cut my jugular vein clean into, and again, when I lost control of my pickup and rolled it off the embankment of the red river, which totaled my truck, and I came out without a scrathe. During both of these experiences it was lit up with that bright light that was so peaceful that I did not want it to end. I rolled my pickup in the daylight and the whole cab was lit up, even under the dash there were no shadows. I know that was God's presence with me.

Another verse that will harmonize with Colossians 2:13 is Eph 2:5.

Many of God's children relate their conversion experience as their new birth. To my understanding, the scriptures teach, according to Jesus explanation, of being born again, to Nicodemus it comes almost unnoticed, and after you are already born again, conversion comes, at least in my experience, as compared to a 4th of July fireworks. I believe that Paul had already been born again before his conversion took place on the road to Damascus, which was a dramatic experience for him.

 

[OIC1965]

The men you named were already saved and immersed....the "irresistible grace" they peddle is under the banner of salvation....not the call to follow Jesus as apostles......

There are two words that apply to the saved in particular, saints and elect....One (saints) is who we are in Christ as Holy, the other (elect) is who we are as chosen.

They say GOD said person A was chosen to be saved by God before the world was cast down....and person B was SOL and destined to burn in hell.....

I disagree with that view which is not biblical....what is BIBLICAL IS THE FOLLOWING

a. God determined before the casting down of the world to CHOSE all who come to him through his son...this is the election

1. God is under no obligation to call those that will not believe

2. God knows who will and who will not

3. MANY ARE CALLED, FEW ARE CHOSEN

many is not ALL
THE FEW of the MANY is even less
Why are some called but they do not make the FEW CHOSEN

Because GRACE CAN BE RESISTED some MEN REFUSE the call even though it is irrevocable.....

I HAVE SEEN THIS with my own eyes....A person CALLED, CONVICTED by the call, proven that God was calling them and yet they hardened their heart and resisted/rejected

Like the Roman....ALMOST THOU PERSUADEST ME....he said...

And the RICH young ruler walked away LOST though obviously convicted!

Well said.

 

[VCO]

I understand where you are coming from. Even through your setbacks, it seems that God is blessing you. I have no doubt that you have been born again to a spiritual life, and that the Holy Ghost dwells within you. I am 86 years old, and am blessed by God beyond my deserving. He delivered (saved) me from dying when my brother accidently cut my jugular vein clean into, and again, when I lost control of my pickup and rolled it off the embankment of the red river, which totaled my truck, and I came out without a scrathe. During both of these experiences it was lit up with that bright light that was so peaceful that I did not want it to end. I rolled my pickup in the daylight and the whole cab was lit up, even under the dash there were no shadows. I know that was God's presence with me.

Another verse that will harmonize with Colossians 2:13 is Eph 2:5.

Many of God's children relate their conversion experience as their new birth. To my understanding, the scriptures teach, according to Jesus explanation, of being born again, to Nicodemus it comes almost unnoticed, and after you are already born again, conversion comes, at least in my experience, as compared to a 4th of July fireworks. I believe that Paul had already been born again before his conversion took place on the road to Damascus, which was a dramatic experience for him.

Amen, and Amen. I to can think back to several times I should have been killed, and was not. WHY? All along, HE HAD A PLAN FOR MY LIFE. I am of the opposite opinion as far as Paul is concerned, no biggy, we will find the answer when we get the heaven. I think the BORN AGAIN experience, is WHEN the Holy Spirit actually enters the HEART, and you cannot mistake that, prior to that HE leds us in certain direction from outside the heart. Everything in your heart COMES ETERNALLY ALIVE. So Paul is a testimony that CONVERSION IS BORN AGAIN.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I understand where you are coming from. Even through your setbacks, it seems that God is blessing you. I have no doubt that you have been born again to a spiritual life, and that the Holy Ghost dwells within you. I am 86 years old, and am blessed by God beyond my deserving. He delivered (saved) me from dying when my brother accidently cut my jugular vein clean into, and again, when I lost control of my pickup and rolled it off the embankment of the red river, which totaled my truck, and I came out without a scrathe. During both of these experiences it was lit up with that bright light that was so peaceful that I did not want it to end. I rolled my pickup in the daylight and the whole cab was lit up, even under the dash there were no shadows. I know that was God's presence with me.

Another verse that will harmonize with Colossians 2:13 is Eph 2:5.

Many of God's children relate their conversion experience as their new birth. To my understanding, the scriptures teach, according to Jesus explanation, of being born again, to Nicodemus it comes almost unnoticed, and after you are already born again, conversion comes, at least in my experience, as compared to a 4th of July fireworks. I believe that Paul had already been born again before his conversion took place on the road to Damascus, which was a dramatic experience for him.

Beautiful testimony...

The reason to doubt about Paul being born again before the road to Damascus is because he was involved in so many murders... could have life really been in him, considering was living a lifestyle of persecuting and murdering people? I suppose we can't know for sure... but if any, that would be the reason to think it's unlikely he was born again at that point... but I have read recently an argument that seems to agree with you. They base the argument on Paul's question being, "who are you, Lord?" which likely means that God spoke to Saul before, or otherwise revealed Himself to Saul... it does not prove that he was saved, but...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just dipping in here. Nothing theological but maths related.

@Budman (hi brother) says



This is made up of 140*4 weeks equals 560 per month and times that by 12 equlas 6,720.

However that is based on 4 weeks times 12 which equals 48 weeks and not 52 weeks in a year.
Therefore 6,720 a year times 5 = 33,600. Looks like he he has just timsed by 10 and not 2 (5 years at 33,600 = 67,200) which you have said.

However, if my calculations are correct here is what we come to.

140*52= 7,280.
7,280*10 = 72,800 over a 10 year period.

Therefore the calculations presented are incorrect. (@posthuman the maths man will correct me if I'm wrong)

I am not stating this to make me look good and either of you bad or stupid, that's not my style. My love for my brothers and sisters on here would not lead me to do this.

My expertise is accountancy and taxation in the UK. I am an FD of a private limited company (not sure for how long though as we specialise as a tour operator selling bespoke packages to the USA)

Yet outside of that my mind finds it difficult to comprehend stuff that others find easy.

Just trying to reassure you that I'm not trying to make you both stupid.

Anyway it does not matter how many sins we commit.

The sins of the world were forgiven on the cross.

Currently the highest number we have on earth is

The biggest named number that we know is googolplex, ten to the googol power, or (10)^(10^100).That's written as a one followed by googol zeroes.

My guess is that on the cross the number of sins forgiven makes the googolplex look like 1 sin. The 1 sin that condemns us and that is unbelief in Jesus.

When we repent of that sin then all of our sins past present and future are forgiven.

As a result our sins decrease and Jesus increases.

The negative is replaced with the positive.

1 step back 2 steps forward.

Amen and good to see you Brother!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you think that your belief is the cause of your eternal salvation?

No it is his grace. Apart from his grace, I would have no possibility to be saved, that’s why I trust him,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No problem. Thanks for the correction. And yes, my only point was to show the hypocrisy of the "you must/will stop sinning" rigmarole.

One thing to remember,

our Brother James made it clear if we go ten years without committing sin, and then stumble in just one point, we are guilty of the whole law. And seen as sinners. Our just condemnation is earned, and we are without hope.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Amen, and Amen. I to can think back to several times I should have been killed, and was not. WHY? All along, HE HAD A PLAN FOR MY LIFE. I am of the opposite opinion as far as Paul is concerned, no biggy, we will find the answer when we get the heaven. I think the BORN AGAIN experience, is WHEN the Holy Spirit actually enters the HEART, and you cannot mistake that, prior to that HE leds us in certain direction from outside the heart. Everything in your heart COMES ETERNALLY ALIVE. So Paul is a testimony that CONVERSION IS BORN AGAIN.

Respectfully, I understand your thinking that born again spiritually and conversion comes at the same time. I believe that being born again comes first and sometime after we are born again, we grow in knowledge enough that we turn toward being converted to obeying God's commandments that we have learned.

I believe that Isaiah 28:9-10, harmonizes this idea. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.

When we are first born again, we are babes in Christ that gradually grow and learn from the preaching of the gospel to become mature enough in the doctrine to be converted to obeying the commandments of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Beautiful testimony...

The reason to doubt about Paul being born again before the road to Damascus is because he was involved in so many murders... could have life really been in him, considering was living a lifestyle of persecuting and murdering people? I suppose we can't know for sure... but if any, that would be the reason to think it's unlikely he was born again at that point... but I have read recently an argument that seems to agree with you. They base the argument on Paul's question being, "who are you, Lord?" which likely means that God spoke to Saul before, or otherwise revealed Himself to Saul... it does not prove that he was saved, but...

In my understanding of the scriptures, although we have been born again, we still carry the baggage of our sinful nature, and the only righteousness that we have is the imputed righteousness of Christ. I believe we are in the same situation as Paul relates to in Rom 7:15-25, which requires us to repent when we yield our bodies to the temptations of sin.

Paul says that "in all good conscience" he persecuted the church.

King David, the apple of God's eye, committed adultery, murder, and lied to cover up the murder, which required repentance.

The natural unregenerate man does not have a conscience (a new fleshy heart) that can be pricked 1 Cor 2:14.

Jesus ask Paul, on the road to Damascus, "Why do you kick against the pricks"

The Jews that Peter preached to at Pentecost were pricked in the heart, and said "what must we do?" which indicates that they were already born again.

The Jews that Steven preached to with the same sermon that Peter preached, were "cut to the heart" which indicates that their heart had not been changed from stone to fleshy in the new birth, and they stoned him to death.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

One thing to remember,

our Brother James made it clear if we go ten years without committing sin, and then stumble in just one point, we are guilty of the whole law. And seen as sinners. Our just condemnation is earned, and we are without hope.

Does this condemnation apply to those that Christ died and paid for all of their sins? Would not that make Christ's work on the cross uneffective?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does this condemnation apply to those that Christ died and paid for all of their sins? Would not that make Christ's work on the cross uneffective?

Apart from Christ is there any hope?
and so, Christ died for everyone,

condemnation now is based on unbelief, the law can never curse anyone again

my point was for those trying to put us back under law. The requirement was perfection, if you lived 60 years and never broke the law. Then stumbled in 1 area, according to the law you are cursed,

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Apart from Christ is there any hope?
and so, Christ died for everyone,

condemnation now is based on unbelief, the law can never curse anyone again

my point was for those trying to put us back under law. The requirement was perfection, if you lived 60 years and never broke the law. Then stumbled in 1 area, according to the law you are cursed,

As you know, I differ with you on who Christ died for. According to Daniel 4:35 God does his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, therefore if it was God's will for all mankind to go to heaven, then all mankind will be in heaven, and the scriptures will not uphold that idea.

 

[VCO]

Respectfully, I understand your thinking that born again spiritually and conversion comes at the same time. I believe that being born again comes first and sometime after we are born again, we grow in knowledge enough that we turn toward being converted to obeying God's commandments that we have learned.

I believe that Isaiah 28:9-10, harmonizes this idea. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.

When we are first born again, we are babes in Christ that gradually grow and learn from the preaching of the gospel to become mature enough in the doctrine to be converted to obeying the commandments of God.

Peter was Crucified Up Side Down

No offense intended brother. We will have a different point of view, and I think it is a DIFFERENCE in our Terminology. Most
Evangelical teach the Conversion and Born Again are the Same Thing; that happens the MOMENT we genuinely first BELIEVE.
I am not sure, but you seem to Associate Conversion to when you first realize that all the Doctrine is True. To me that is JUST
Spiritual Growth. I take it you are not associated with any of the Evangelical Denominations; but with some other Christian
Denomination. I hope you do not mind my asking, WHAT DENOMINATION do you come from? I am associated with a Non-
Denominational, Conservative, Evangelical style of CHURH.

 

[VCO]

As you know, I differ with you on who Christ died for. According to Daniel 4:35 God does his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, therefore if it was God's will for all mankind to go to heaven, then all mankind will be in heaven, and the scriptures will not uphold that idea.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

James 2:10 (NCV)
10 A person who follows all of God’s law but fails to obey even one command is guilty of breaking all the commands in that law.

1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Mark 3:28-29 (ESV)
28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—


Seems simple enough for ANYBODY to understand. Everybody that has a destiny of hades/hell is GUILTY of the SAME SIN.
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is rejecting the TRUTH about Messiah that HE has been trying to get their hearts to believe, that HE PAID for all sins on the Cross, Except ONE.

 

[VCO]

View attachment 223452


Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

James 2:10 (NCV)
10 A person who follows all of God’s law but fails to obey even one command is guilty of breaking all the commands in that law.

1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Mark 3:28-29 (ESV)
28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—


Seems simple enough for ANYBODY to understand. Everybody that has a destiny of hades/hell is GUILTY of the SAME SIN.
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is rejecting the TRUTH about Messiah that HE has been trying to get their hearts to believe, that HE PAID for all sins on the Cross, Except ONE.

And LOOK, in this Gustave Dore drawing, the Nails
are going in HIS Wrists. Dore understood, the JEWS
Considered the Wrists to be Part of the Hands.


Jesus paid it ALL on the CROSS.
All one has to do is humbly receive that Payment,
and SALVATION bought by HIM, of your Human Spirit is YOURS.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As you know, I differ with you on who Christ died for. According to Daniel 4:35 God does his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, therefore if it was God's will for all mankind to go to heaven, then all mankind will be in heaven, and the scriptures will not uphold that idea.

Yes I know you do

it is Gods will that all go to heaven, that’s why he said he is willing that none should perish he gives they every opportunity

a loving father, creator. Savior will not force anyone to take his gift, to do so would make him no better than our adversary the devil. It would make him a dictator, who forces. Not a loving father who gives.

you can not force a relationship.

so yeah, Jesus died for the world. Not just the elect, if he did John would have said so,

 

[ForestGreenCook]

View attachment 223452


Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

James 2:10 (NCV)
10 A person who follows all of God’s law but fails to obey even one command is guilty of breaking all the commands in that law.

1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Mark 3:28-29 (ESV)
28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—


Seems simple enough for ANYBODY to understand. Everybody that has a destiny of hades/hell is GUILTY of the SAME SIN.
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is rejecting the TRUTH about Messiah that HE has been trying to get their hearts to believe, that HE PAID for all sins on the Cross, Except ONE.

1 John 2:2, The word "world" in this verse, according to Thayer's Greek definition means; any aggregate or general collection of particles of any sort. (Used of believers only) John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.

Because that God saw, by his foreknowledge, that none of mankind would seek him, he choose an elect people for His Son to die for to be a sacrifice to pay for all of their sins. which they were never guilty of blasphemes against the Holy Spirit. John 10:26-29, But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep (elect), as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Mark 3:29, those of mankind that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit had never had forgiveness through the cross.

The scriptures are written as a mystery, and all scriptures must harmonize in order to understand the doctrine of Christ.

 

[VCO]

1 John 2:2, The word "world" in this verse, according to Thayer's Greek definition means; any aggregate or general collection of particles of any sort. (Used of believers only) John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.

Because that God saw, by his foreknowledge, that none of mankind would seek him, he choose an elect people for His Son to die for to be a sacrifice to pay for all of their sins. which they were never guilty of blasphemes against the Holy Spirit. John 10:26-29, But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep (elect), as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Mark 3:29, those of mankind that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit had never had forgiveness through the cross.

The scriptures are written as a mystery, and all scriptures must harmonize in order to understand the doctrine of Christ.

QUOTE:
John adds that He is the satisfying sacrifice not for our sins only, but also for the whole world. This does not mean that the whole world is saved. Rather it means that the work of the Lord Jesus is sufficient in value to save all the world, but it is only efficient to save those who actually put their trust in Him.
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding. :END QUOTE


1 John 2:2 (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (ASV)
2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NKJV)
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NASB)
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (HCSB)
2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NRSV)
2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (ESV)
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (NCV)
2 He is the way our sins are taken away, and not only our sins but the sins of all people.
1 John 2:2 (NJB)
2 He is the sacrifice to expiate our sins, and not only ours, but also those of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 (YLT)
2 and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
1 John 2:2 (GW)
2 He is the payment for our sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.

NOW THERE ARE 12 TRANSLATION TEAMS THAT SAID HIS SACRIFICE WAS SUFFICEINT TO APPLY TO EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.

I THINK HE MEANT IT LITERALLY MEANS THE WHOLE WORLD.

I ask you again, what Denomination do you come from ? ? ?

 

[VCO]

Respectfully, I understand your thinking that born again spiritually and conversion comes at the same time. I believe that being born again comes first and sometime after we are born again, we grow in knowledge enough that we turn toward being converted to obeying God's commandments that we have learned.

I believe that Isaiah 28:9-10, harmonizes this idea. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.

When we are first born again, we are babes in Christ that gradually grow and learn from the preaching of the gospel to become mature enough in the doctrine to be converted to obeying the commandments of God.

Isaiah 28:9-11 (HCSB)
9 Who is he trying to teach? Who is he trying to instruct? Infants ⌊just⌋ weaned from milk? Babies removed from the breast?
10 For ⌊he says⌋: “Law after law, law after law, line after line, line after line, a little here, a little there.”
11 So He will speak to this people with stammering speech and in a foreign language.


That has absolutely NOTHING to do with BORN AGAIN.


QUOTE:
28:9-10. The speakers in verse 9 are probably the priests and prophets mentioned in verses 7-8. They were angry that Isaiah was treating them as if they were young children. They felt they were adults who could think for themselves; they had no need for someone to tell them what to do or think. So they mimicked Isaiah as if he were speaking "baby talk" to them (v. 10). Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule (cf. v. 13) is a series of sounds in Hebrew (ṣaw lāṣāw, ṣaw lāṣāw, qaw lāqāw, qaw lāqāw). Mocking Isaiah's messages, the leaders were acting as if he were an adult "lecturing" a little child. A little here, a little there was a method used in teaching children, inculcating a little at a time. In other words they were refusing to take Isaiah's words seriously. They wanted nothing to do with his message or his ministry.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty. :END QUOTE