If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

[Ahwatukee]

Jesus hung on a cross for us all and asked his followers to do the same. The Hebrew people went through 10 plagues (God's wrath) to leave Egypt. The 12 disciples went through intense persecution. The early church was persecuted by the Catholics for hundreds of years, but the final church is just gonna get caught up before any trouble?

The "trouble" that you referred to, is not common trouble which takes place because of our faith. But the trouble that is coming will be directly from God. As I told you, it is important for you and others to recognize the difference between the trials and persecutions that Jesus said believers would have vs. God coming, unprecedented wrath. It is the latter that believers are not appointed to suffer. You need to get your definitions straight.

The 12 disciples/apostles and early church went through the trials and persecutions that Jesus said they would and which many others are experiencing today. However, what they experienced was not the wrath of God, which is your error. you are making them both the same and they are not. God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will be unlike anything that has happened on the earth and will be specifically aimed at those who are willfully practicing the sinful nature and continue to reject Christ. Why would the Lord send those who already believe in Him through His wrath?

I beg you stop spreading lies, think about what happens, if someone who holds this as truth, and it doesn't happen. I will let it go now, it just pains me to no end, when fables are taught as Biblical truths.

Instead of telling me to stop spreading lies, I would rather have you address the scriptures that I have provided as proof, especially the information that I gave you regarding Christ already having experienced God's wrath on every believers behalf. Since He has done that, do you still think that God's wrath still rests on believers? Reply to the scriptures that I have provided. Do you believe that Christ took upon himself God's wrath that we deserve or no? If you answer 'yes' then who can you still believe that the church must experience God's wrath and why?

I came to these conclusions based on all related scripture and God's nature, that He does not punish the righteous with the wicked, just as He told Abraham. You need to understand the following:

* There is a difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's returns to the earth to end the age.

* The legal precedent that Jesus has already experienced God's wrath, satisfying it completely.

* That there is a difference between the common trials and persecutions vs. God's coming wrath.

Believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath:

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! - Rom.5:9

They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - I Thessalonian 1:10

But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. - I Thessalonians 5:9

Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. - Revelation 3:10

Instead of telling me I'm wrong, refute the scriptures that I have listed. Thanks!

 

[GaryA]

Thankyou. Quite honestly I hope it happens next year.

If you are going to make that suggestion, why not just say "in the next two minutes" instead?

 

[GaryA]

Well if pre trib is not true and beheading is imminent then as harsh as it may sound it will at least be quick.

A "soon-enough" kind of 'quick' - afterward, no more pain, suffering, sin, etc.

 

[Ruby123]

If you are going to make that suggestion, why not just say "in the next two minutes" instead?

I am talking about rapture not beheading or tribulation and if it happens in the next two minutes that is also fine with me, rapture that is. I would like my older brother to be saved first. My my and dad have passed away. Mum was a christian, dad we have had nothing to do with. so I will see my Mum again which will be so awesome. Next year would give that final push for everyone to push their loved ones to be saved.

 

[GaryA]

Got to go for now - have a nice day!

 

[GaryA]

I am talking about rapture not beheading or tribulation and if it happens in the next two minutes that is also fine with me, rapture that is. I would like my older brother to be saved first. My my and dad have passed away. Mum was a christian, dad we have had nothing to do with. so I will see my Mum again which will be so awesome. Next year would give that final push for everyone to push their loved ones to be saved.

I understand...

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thankyou. Quite honestly I hope it happens next year.
Have you seen that Berisheet video. It is interesting, not sure if it is true??

Amen! The sooner the better!

The reference to being beheaded, is in regards to the great tribulation saints who are those who are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17 and will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. They will be on the earth because they will have no been believer in Christ prior to the churches gathering. The unbelieving nation of Israel will also be here, as well as the 144,000 and of course the wicked.

In Luke 21:34, Jesus warns believers to be careful, so that our hearts will not be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on us suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. What this means is that, if a believer turns back to willfully living according to the sinful nature and the Lord comes to gather His church, those living like that will be caught in that time of God's wrath, like a trap. Therefore, He is warning us to be alert, watching and ready, so that we will be in a right spiritual state when He comes. We need to have our jars full of oil, which is watchful readiness while waiting for the bridegroom.

 

[kinda]

I would suggest an in depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and in lieu of what Jesus did and then ask yourself the question, is the Lord going to send His church/bride through His wrath?

By the way, I don't get my information from Google or youtube, but from scripture alone.

I will try to make this short and sweet, rather than dazzle people with many words.

Mathew 24:29-31

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Notice scripture says, Immediately after the tribulation, NOT, immediately before the tribulation. When does Jesus come? Well, my bible says, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATON! At this point there is no debate, but I will continue.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

O.K., let's summarize again, when are the believers taken? At the last trump and Immediately after the tribulation.

So, if the timing is at the last trump, there must be trumpet sounds before the last right? Seems logical. I'm trying to think where trumps are mentioned in the Bible. Hmm. Could it be in Revelation?

Revelation 10:7

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

A whole lot of judgement happened happened in the prior 6 trumpets, you could even call those trumpets the tribulation time period.

The pre-tribulation rapture has now been proven incorrect, false, and not in accordance with scripture. Will leave a video for those who like to learn more.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I will try to make this short and sweet, rather than dazzle people with many words.

Mathew 24:29-31

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Notice scripture says, Immediately after the tribulation, NOT, immediately before the tribulation. When does Jesus come? Well, my bible says, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATON! At this point there is no debate, but I will continue.

Morning Kinda!

The reference to "Immediately after the tribulation" is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. It has nothing to do with the gathering of the church. In fact, Revelation 19:14 shows the bride/church following Christ out of heaven on white horses. So, to have the church gathered when Christ returns to the earth to end the age would be true magic act, since the church is seen following the Lord out of heaven.

Do you think that by what I am teaching that I have not gone over these scriptures that you are presenting? If I hadn't, then I would have no right to to teach these things. But I assure that I have gone over them inside and out more times than I can remember and continue to do so. That said, Matthew 24:29-31 that you have listed above, is in reference to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. You along with many others have mistakenly used v.31 as representing the gathering of the church by angels, which it is not. This is why I said that you need to understand that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Here you are misinterpreting Matthew 24:30-31 as referring to the gathering of the church, which is incorrect. Until you understand that they are two separate events, your interpretation of the end times will always be in error.

When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age after the tribulation, He will send out His angels to the four corners of the earth to gather living people, i.e. those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the tribulation period. But before that happens and which is not mentioned in Matt.24:31, is that the angels will first collect the weeds/wicked.

"The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

"‘At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’

So, Matthew 24:31 has the angels gathering the wheat/righteous at the Lord's coming, but doesn't mention that the angels will first gather the wicked. And if you can except it, those weeds that the angels collect are the "ones taken" of the parable.

In addition, that "great sound of a trumpet" mentioned in Matthew 24:31 is not the same trumpet as the "last trumpet' that Paul mentions in I Corinthians 15:52. They are two different trumpets. People usually do this by pigeonholing the word trumpet.

Also, I would point out that, when the Lord appears to call up the dead and the living, angels do not go out and gather them. The dead will rise from their graves in power, immortal and glorified and that by the Lord whose voice will sound like a trumpet saying "come up here." Then those in Christ who are still alive when the resurrection takes place, will be transformed immortal and glorified in the blink of an eye and will be caught up with those who will have just been resurrected. At this point the entire church will meet the Lord in the air and He will then take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, as promised in John 14:1-3

This is why I continue to remind you that, you need to include all related scriptural information in order to come to a right conclusion.

==============================================================
1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Matthew 24:30-31

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
===============================================================

The two scriptures above are referring to two different events:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 = The gathering of the church

Matthew 24:30-31 = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age

So, if the timing is at the last trump, there must be trumpet sounds before the last right? Seems logical. I'm trying to think where trumps are mentioned in the Bible. Hmm. Could it be in Revelation?

Revelation 10:7

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I was wondering when you were going to mention the false teaching of the 7th trumpet judgment as being the last trumpet. I have gone over this so many times with others before you claiming that the 7th trumpet and the last trumpet as being the same. All you are doing is repeating the false teachings that are out there. You have two major problems with this claim.

1). The trumpet judgments (along with the seals and the bowls), are all apart of God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer. Therefore, the church cannot be on the earth while the trumpets are being blown. In fact, the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. If the church was gathered at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, that would mean that the church will have gone through all of the seals and the previous trumpets of wrath. The time of God's wrath is a barrier that the church cannot cross. This teaching should be first and foremost. It should deflect any other claims. It is a legal precedent that the church cannot enter into God's wrath. It would mean that Jesus suffered God's wrath for nothing.

2). That gathering of the church is a great blessing, where the 7th trumpet is wrath. In fact, the 7th trumpet, also referred to as the third woe, is when Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth.

"Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

A whole lot of judgement happened happened in the prior 6 trumpets, you could even call those trumpets the tribulation time period.

All of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments represent the tribulation/great tribulation period, the time of God's wrath. And since Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, then the wrath of God no longer rests upon the those who believe. The church cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath and that includes the 7th trumpet.

The pre-tribulation rapture has now been proven incorrect, false, and not in accordance with scripture. Will leave a video for those who like to learn more.

Nothing that you have written above has proven that the pre-tribulation gathering of the church as being incorrect. If anything, I have proven it to be correct, for I have revealed the errors of your claims. The fact that you are leaving a video done by someone else is my point of adopting the false teachings of men. Your conclusions should come from scripture alone, based on your own findings and not on someone else's teachings.[/quote]

 

[kinda]

Morning Kinda!

The reference to "Immediately after the tribulation" is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. It has nothing to do with the gathering of the church

-Say what?

[/QUOTE]

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


You are a false prophet!

 

[kinda]

I appologize for participating in fruitless discussion, will ban myself from this thread.

 

[Butterflyyy]

Did you read Awhatukee’s previous post to this? You can’t have done because you are just repeating your position when he has clearly and scripturally corrected your errors. Please read all that he just said and carefully consider it; you will be blessed and learn much; it’s wonderful insight he has and he patiently and willingly shares it in faithful service to God, and to his fellow believers.
He is definitely not a false prophet and I hope you realise and apologise to him.
He has in-depth understanding of the scriptures and a great many scholars who understand Hebrew and Greek agree with him.

 

[Butterflyyy]

I appologize for participating in fruitless discussion, will ban myself from this thread.

Where are your Biblical answers?
Don’t run away like a snow-flake, answer Awhatukee or humbly acknowledge that you learnt something new today...it’s good to be humble, it’s good to learn... we are all learning.

 

[ChoirLoft]

I would not say "most"... though I have noticed A FEW on this site doing so, still (as *many* do)... but no, I would not say that *most* pre-tribbers misapply this "Second Coming to the earth" context (which is what it actually is), unlike they did back in the 70s when I first started studying the Subject. They did it A LOT back then, I do admit.

Yes they did and they still do. I remember those days as well.

I have attended faux-bible studies where people from various post-protestant disciplines gathered. The study is in name only for they generally assemble to share their opinions and private fantasies rather than to actually glean truth from God's Word.

It amazes me how really off-road post-protestants have become. There is literally nothing left of the gospel as understood by the Hebrews who wrote the Bible and nothing left of its interpretation by the Reformation thinkers and writers who risked their lives for it.

Instead we are left with a hideous interpretation of future events that are anti-semitic in nature, deprecating in practice and illogical. It's based upon a stubborn refusal to examine scripture in the light of revelation in which it was given. The overwhelming principle applied to 'Bible studies' and forum discussions are doctrine first, scripture second.

Doctrine is formulated and the only real purpose of scripture is to support the opinion, whatever that may be. It's the reverse of what God intended. Post-protestant Christians are almost completely unaware of this form of false religion.

It's really unproductive for anyone to regurgitate End Times eschatology in its present form mostly because it has little to do with Bible based interpretation. It is a complete fabrication and a total waste of time.

And I've seen that too since the 1970's as have you I'm sure.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

I was thinking that perhaps he simply has not looked into how to use the signature feature yet.

There are times when I like to add a post script after the tag line. You can't do that if you set up an automatic signature because it forces the tag at the end always.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS like this....

 

[ChoirLoft]

Yes, there will be someone to live until through God's wrath until the end when Jesus returns. Those who will be on the earth are listed below:

The nation Israel: The unbelieving nation of Israel who will fulfill the last seven years of the decree of seventy sevens that was decreed upon Daniel's people (Israel) and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24

The great tribulation saints: Those from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles) who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath who are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17

The Male Child/144,000: The Male Child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who come out of unbelieving Israel, ergo, gives birth to. They will be on the earth during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period and then caught up to God and His throne in the middle of the seven years - Revelation 12:5

The Unsaved: All whose names that were not written in the book of life before the world began - Revelation 13:8, 17:8

Most of the great tribulation saints will be killed during that last 3 1/2 years, but some will make it through alive and will be the ones, along with the remnant of Israel, who will enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. At that time, the wicked will be gathered by the angels and brought back to Armageddon to be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, which is symbolically representing the spoken word of God. Then all of those birds that will have been gathered by the angel in Revelation 19:17-18, 21, will gorge themselves on their flesh.

Your continuous reference to anti-semitic attitudes is nauseating. Did you ever read the Bible or do you prefer to bludgeon everyone with your hate language as a form of religion?

God NEVER abandoned His people Israel. He never will.

Read your Bible.

God remains faithful to His people AND ALWAYS keeps a remnant (of Jews) for Himself. One would suppose you'd willingly murder every Jew in town just to justify your vile sense of religious false prophecy. Your form of religious interpretation is disgusting.

Every single statement made by you is laughingly incorrect. The really funny part is that you don't even know it. Read your Bible.

You put doctrine first. Then you justify it with snippets of scripture and religious slogans to make others believe your false notions are correct. They aren't. Not a little.

One who studies gleans truth from scripture. One never shoehorns scripture to fit their anti-semitic hatred and bias.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The Lord knoweth the reasonings of the wise that they are vain. 1 Co 3:20

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes they did and they still do. I remember those days as well.

I have attended faux-bible studies where people from various post-protestant disciplines gathered. The study is in name only for they generally assemble to share their opinions and private fantasies rather than to actually glean truth from God's Word.

It amazes me how really off-road post-protestants have become. There is literally nothing left of the gospel as understood by the Hebrews who wrote the Bible and nothing left of its interpretation by the Reformation thinkers and writers who risked their lives for it.

Instead we are left with a hideous interpretation of future events that are anti-semitic in nature, deprecating in practice and illogical. It's based upon a stubborn refusal to examine scripture in the light of revelation in which it was given. The overwhelming principle applied to 'Bible studies' and forum discussions are doctrine first, scripture second.

Doctrine is formulated and the only real purpose of scripture is to support the opinion, whatever that may be. It's the reverse of what God intended. Post-protestant Christians are almost completely unaware of this form of false religion.

It's really unproductive for anyone to regurgitate End Times eschatology in its present form mostly because it has little to do with Bible based interpretation. It is a complete fabrication and a total waste of time.

And I've seen that too since the 1970's as have you I'm sure.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

This is completely false! You would be saying that we cannot trust in the word of God and therefore would have no way of knowing what God is really saying. That's bunk! Case in point, we have scripture regarding the mark of the beast and that prophecy is already here and is evolving. We already have people receiving a chip under the skin of the hand which is being used to electronically buy and sell.

By what you are claiming, you would be turning people away from reading the word of God.

You would also be saying that God is not powerful enough to make sure that His word remained for every generation.

I would also mention Jesus prophecy regarding the destruction of the temple, which as you know was fulfilled in 70 ad.

And how about Palms 16:10:

"because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful b one see decay."

Did that not take place?

We can trust in the accuracy of the word of God. By your claim on this post, you would be turning people away from the truth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Your continuous reference to anti-semitic attitudes is nauseating. Did you ever read the Bible or do you prefer to bludgeon everyone with your hate language as a form of religion?

God NEVER abandoned His people Israel. He never will.

Read your Bible.

God remains faithful to His people AND ALWAYS keeps a remnant (of Jews) for Himself. One would suppose you'd willingly murder every Jew in town just to justify your vile sense of religious false prophecy. Your form of religious interpretation is disgusting.

Every single statement made by you is laughingly incorrect. The really funny part is that you don't even know it. Read your Bible.

You put doctrine first. Then you justify it with snippets of scripture and religious slogans to make others believe your false notions are correct. They aren't. Not a little.

One who studies gleans truth from scripture. One never shoehorns scripture to fit their anti-semitic hatred and bias.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The Lord knoweth the reasonings of the wise that they are vain. 1 Co 3:20

You have made an erroneous assumption! Where did you get the idea that I said that God has abandoned His people Israel? I can assure that I have never said that in any post. I believe the opposite, that God has prophesies yet to be fulfilled for His people Israel.

You ought to carefully read these posts before jumping to these false conclusions. Please show me one place where I ever said that God has abandoned His people Israel. You won't find it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Your continuous reference to anti-semitic attitudes is nauseating. Did you ever read the Bible or do you prefer to bludgeon everyone with your hate language as a form of religion?

I think that you are badly mistaken, sir! I have no hate language at all here on this forum.

Again, along with where you assumed that I said that God has abandoned His people Israel, show me also where you have found any hate language from me in any post.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Your continuous reference to anti-semitic attitudes is nauseating. Did you ever read the Bible or do you prefer to bludgeon everyone with your hate language as a form of religion?

God NEVER abandoned His people Israel. He never will.

Read your Bible.

God remains faithful to His people AND ALWAYS keeps a remnant (of Jews) for Himself. One would suppose you'd willingly murder every Jew in town just to justify your vile sense of religious false prophecy. Your form of religious interpretation is disgusting.

Every single statement made by you is laughingly incorrect. The really funny part is that you don't even know it. Read your Bible.

You put doctrine first. Then you justify it with snippets of scripture and religious slogans to make others believe your false notions are correct. They aren't. Not a little.

One who studies gleans truth from scripture. One never shoehorns scripture to fit their anti-semitic hatred and bias.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The Lord knoweth the reasonings of the wise that they are vain. 1 Co 3:20

Yet, you didn't even backup any of the claims you said about me with any proof at all. Give me an example of any of the things that you have accused me of.

I'm thinking we have a troll here!