CALLING ALL ATHEISTS TO A CHALLENGE!!!

[Thomas60]

So you believe evidence of the process between an object and its cause is not necessary to determine the cause?

I will tell you how it works. When you were born what did you know? How smart were you? What beliefs did you have? Then you looked at the sky one day and said, ''blue.'' Or maybe you were smarter than other babies and said, ''oh no mama and papa, the sky is not blue, it is just that the blue color of the color spectrum have shorter wave lengths.... Yeah right get a clue.

After I learnt how to name colours, I said the sky was blue. In order to refer to color spectrums of light wavelengths I would have needed evidence of how light works. So I could not determine the cause of why sky is blue. My question still holds, do you?

So, what do you know my friend. Before you read that book you might have thought you had it right. Maybe you considered a certain scientist wrong, but then changed over to believe one because the evidence of the other was more compelling. So, all you believe is a temporary fact, but you don't know ANYTHING about truth.

All beliefs and claims should be made with the following clause: *with the best available explanation of evidence known today.
Absolute truth exists, but you will never know it as absolute truth.

So for instance (I will appeal to your logic if it be logic you use and not bias) three men go into a far county and they come back to you and give you their report. One man says, in this country, animals. The other says, ''NO NO NO, in this country Animals rule over people.'' And the other says, ''YOU BOTH ARE WRONG, neither rule over each other, but the King rules over all of them.''

So, you have three possible liars. And now you say, okay, I want proof of which is right, and which are lying. Yet, in this case, one is telling the truth. How will you know then? How will you know the truth? Now, use your brain now. You have options. You can go to that far country by yourself, and witness it. But which one would tell you to go? The liars or the one who was telling the truth? And what if you get to that far country and you see the truth and you come back and tell others? Do you think they would believe you just because they respect you or something. PFFT. Most of the time the liars get the respect and the people who tell the truth get dogged.

My own knowledge 'in this situation' of the empirical evidence i've experienced of humans relationship with animals will count as evidence, making it likely I believe the one that coincides with my own knowledge. This will always remain tentative with the understanding that if I visit the country, and find it different, I will change my mind.
Assuming I had never heard or reached other lands, if independant witnesses came back and collaborate that animals are ruling men, that would make me question my belief. I will likely believe it, but I won't present that belief as authoritative knowledge to other people, because I have not done the investigation, I can only point to people who have claimed authoritative knowledge.

P.S. What part of your analogy represents the subject and what part the cause? (I don't understand how you have appealed to my logic)
Subject: The words of the persons coming back from foreign lands.
Cause?: There are any number of reasons; honest description of their experience, dishonest (for storytelling benefit, cause scares, hyping himself up as an adventurer), mis-understanding between parties (went to different lands, calling differently skinned humans as animals etc).

In the analogy I still have my own accumulated knowledge as evidence, but in order use the logic, we should assume this is not the case.
Here is the logic of such a case
1) A persons X,Y and Z give me different descriptions of another land.
2) Therefore, you can not draw a conclusion from the subject alone (you have to appeal to other evidence)

Do you agree with that logic?

 

[Zoomer239]

First off I am not the one saying something exist. You are. It is you that has to provide proof of that thing. All I am saying is that nearly everything that humans have studied have natural causes and follow natural processes. You don't believe in Thor or Zues of Ra or Athena or any of the other thousands of gods that humans have made up over time. I just don't believe in one more god than you do. You say your god has survived death. What god hasn't? Humans have created gods that can do all of the things we wish we could do. There is nothing different about your god than the other thousands that you reject. I get that you fear death. THat is perfectly normal. but making up a story to calm your nerves may work for you but not me. I am not afraid of death - it is part of a natural process. Sure I would like to live for ever but I know that that is unlikely so i don't fantasize about it. Science has done a lot to lengthen life and to ease pain and to eradicate some diseases. Your god sits on his hands and does nothing but let children die of curable diseases and let them drown in tsunamis. I could never worship something that is so cold and cruel.

 

[Ramon]

After I learnt how to name colours, I said the sky was blue. In order to refer to color spectrums of light wavelengths I would have needed evidence of how light works. So I could not determine the cause of why sky is blue. My question still holds, do you?


All beliefs and claims should be made with the following clause: *with the best available explanation of evidence known today.
Absolute truth exists, but you will never know it as absolute truth.


My own knowledge 'in this situation' of the empirical evidence i've experienced of humans relationship with animals will count as evidence, making it likely I believe the one that coincides with my own knowledge. This will always remain tentative with the understanding that if I visit the country, and find it different, I will change my mind.
Assuming I had never heard or reached other lands, if independant witnesses came back and collaborate that animals are ruling men, that would make me question my belief. I will likely believe it, but I won't present that belief as authoritative knowledge to other people, because I have not done the investigation, I can only point to people who have claimed authoritative knowledge.

P.S. What part of your analogy represents the subject and what part the cause? (I don't understand how you have appealed to my logic)
Subject: The words of the persons coming back from foreign lands.
Cause?: There are any number of reasons; honest description of their experience, dishonest (for storytelling benefit, cause scares, hyping himself up as an adventurer), mis-understanding between parties (went to different lands, calling differently skinned humans as animals etc).

In the analogy I still have my own accumulated knowledge as evidence, but in order use the logic, we should assume this is not the case.
Here is the logic of such a case
1) A persons X,Y and Z give me different descriptions of another land.
2) Therefore, you can not draw a conclusion from the subject alone (you have to appeal to other evidence)

Do you agree with that logic?

Ahh, but you say absolute Truth cannot be known. And I am saying YES it can be known, as surely ad God can be known. You can only presume because you haven't seen nor heard him. But we see and hear him. What good is logic then after you have been met with him?

Don't you say seeing is believing? We are not making empty promises based on strong evidence alone, which evidence you yourself are. As I said there are the living and the dead.

Here is the case. You can't see your life as with your eyes. Yet, when a person dies they leave this world. And yet, their body remains? THIS is the soul. So tell me then, which is the life? Is it the body or what was inside the body. Explain this with our strong evidence. Come again.

 

[Forlorn-Hope]

The mind sees what the heart wants.

 

[Zoomer239]

It has always bothered me that the creator of the universe needs us or wants us to worship it. That creator must be pyshologicaly deficient in some way to want sacks of carbon molecules to worship it. I guess it had a troubled childhood. None of the other deities gave it enough attention I guess.
Also, what can you do in the next life that you can't do in this one? ( assuming that there is a next life) Could you love your neighbor? Well yea but you can do that here. Could you spend time with friends and family? That too can be done here. Could you strive to be a better person? That too can be done here? So why do we need an after life for again. Ah yes so we can sing the praises of that pychologicaly flawed deity that gets all the credit when one person survives a plane crash while the other 150 burned to death in the wreckage. If your a fundamentalist you say that we suffer because if something Adam and Eve did. So a deity punishes billions of people because Adam and Eve wanted to have some knowledge. It is kinda a circular thing if you think about it. Dumb human wants knowledge but getting knowledge causes billions to suffer. But if dumb human knew that knowledge would create so much suffering dumb human would not have desired knowledge. But the deity knows all of this in advance and still allows it to happen. Shame on the deity. The dumb humans had ignorance as an excuse but the deity has no excuse.
It is odd that people hold god to a different standard than they hold each other. If god kills someone that is ok. But if I kill someone everyone agrees that it is a bad thing. Why does god get a get out of jail free card?
Ok, lets say that a deity did create the universe. WHat makes you believe that the deity that you are fond of is the one that did it and not the deity that the guy down the street is fond of?

 

[SolR90]

Ok. I understand this. By the way, we should never not listen to them because they don't agree with us.

So, it is really simple. They believe there is a God, and we believe there is a God. Now, which god is God? Or are there many gods? I will tell you there are many gods in this world. Yes, many gods. These gods are feared and worshiped, and honored. But if I take my computer, and set it on a altar, call it god, and say to it, BRING ME RAIN FROM YOUR HEAVENS OH LORD!!'' would you say I was worshiping God? PFFTT! NO!!!

Elijah challenged these false gods in a mighty way. He said (In general). OKAY YOU SILLY PEOPLE! TODAY WE WILL SEE WHO IS GOD!! IF GOD IS BAAL LET HIM BE GOD! BUT IF HE IS THE GOD OF ISRAEL, LET HIM BE GOD! AND THE GOD THAT ANSWERS BY FIRE IS THE ONE TRUE GOD!!

And you know how that ended. WHICH ONE OF YOU WANT TO PUT GOD TO THE TEST??? AND I WARN YOU, HE WARNED YOU NOT TO PUT HIM TO THE TEST!!

But what makes the bible and this stroy so true? What makes elijah real? What makes the "test" real? How do we know it actually happened and that i happened that way?

 

[Zoomer239]

SolR90 you make a good point that this story may not be true.
Here is a link to a study of the New Testament's ability to continually morph over time.
Scholars Chase Bible’s Changes, One Verse at a Time - Beliefnet News
The inerrant word of God: Revised version
Makes you wonder if we will ever know the truth?

 

[Zoomer239]

Scholars Chase Bible’s Changes, One Verse at a Time - Beliefnet News
The inerrant word of God: Revised version

 

[Ramon]

But what makes the bible and this stroy so true? What makes elijah real? What makes the "test" real? How do we know it actually happened and that i happened that way?

My friend. The same God who lived then lives today. I am sure. You remember that when Elijah prayed that it didn't rain on the earth, it didn't for the space of a year or more. The Lord still is the same Lord. And so, this man had faith in God.

I will tell you, the Lord has answered my prayer that it would not rain where I was, and it was for a purpose too. I saw the clouds line up like soldiers. They formed an empty space above me, a man came into the area and he was shocked that all around me it was not raining and everywhere else it was storming. I was shocked at first, but then I smiled and thanked the Lord. I was able to minister to a homeless woman for this.

This is how we are further built up in this hope. Because God shows himself, ACTUALLY to those who believe. He will not force any of these Atheist to look for him, but if they look, they will surely find him. They are, however, limited by reason and a false knowledge they call knowledge. So they are limited to natural things, whereas we are not limited this way. May Jesus bless you.

 

[Ramon]

It has always bothered me that the creator of the universe needs us or wants us to worship it. That creator must be pyshologicaly deficient in some way to want sacks of carbon molecules to worship it. I guess it had a troubled childhood. None of the other deities gave it enough attention I guess.
Also, what can you do in the next life that you can't do in this one? ( assuming that there is a next life) Could you love your neighbor? Well yea but you can do that here. Could you spend time with friends and family? That too can be done here. Could you strive to be a better person? That too can be done here? So why do we need an after life for again. Ah yes so we can sing the praises of that pychologicaly flawed deity that gets all the credit when one person survives a plane crash while the other 150 burned to death in the wreckage. If your a fundamentalist you say that we suffer because if something Adam and Eve did. So a deity punishes billions of people because Adam and Eve wanted to have some knowledge. It is kinda a circular thing if you think about it. Dumb human wants knowledge but getting knowledge causes billions to suffer. But if dumb human knew that knowledge would create so much suffering dumb human would not have desired knowledge. But the deity knows all of this in advance and still allows it to happen. Shame on the deity. The dumb humans had ignorance as an excuse but the deity has no excuse.
It is odd that people hold god to a different standard than they hold each other. If god kills someone that is ok. But if I kill someone everyone agrees that it is a bad thing. Why does god get a get out of jail free card?
Ok, lets say that a deity did create the universe. WHat makes you believe that the deity that you are fond of is the one that did it and not the deity that the guy down the street is fond of?

Hmm now, is that so strange? He created the Man and the Wife, and the Family to even demonstrate his desire for us. As a child comes out of the womb of a woman, and is the seed of the man, so is man out of the womb of God, and is a seed. And as a fruit that self-replicates, as you can see, so are the generations of man. So. And would not a parent desire that his children obey him, and honor him, and love each other as he loves them? Isn't this good? And shouldn't a good parent chastise his children when they are disobedient? But there are some children, children of rebellion, who despise their father, full of hate. And disown him.

If we had lived according to the ten commandments only, we would not see the corruption in families that come through by hate, murder, lies, adultery and so many other things. God is not in rebellion to man, men are in rebellion to him.

But lets look at your killing situation. You say if you kill someone it is bad, that is true, because if I killed you that would be bad right? But you try to put the creation above the creator in that you say it is murder for the creator to destroy his creation, IF IT HAS CORRUPTED ITSELF, GOING OUTSIDE OF THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH HE CREATED IT.

You don't condemn a scientist who creates, say, a cellphone but finds a defect in it (a tampering). In fact it was very much like this, like a hacker to a computer system, that before a virus was found, it was in perfect running condition (not perfect as men cannot be perfect in themselves). And this one virus opened up the system to attack from other viruses. So the creator has every right to destroy the old system and create a new one. He did it once when he destroyed the world with a flood. AND I PROMISE YOU, AS THIS IS FROM THE LORD GOD HIMSELF. HE WILL DESTROY THE EARTH ONE LAST TIME, BUT THIS TIME IT WILL BE WITH FIRE.

You presume much.

 

[Ramon]

The mind sees what the heart wants.

If this is so, what does your mind see in your heart then? I can tell you what is in the heart of man, rebellion, hatred, carelessness, greed, lust, pride, contention, bitterness. Does your mind agree?

 

[Red_Tory]

It has always bothered me that the creator of the universe needs us or wants us to worship it. That creator must be pyshologicaly deficient in some way to want sacks of carbon molecules to worship it. I guess it had a troubled childhood. None of the other deities gave it enough attention I guess.

That's the thing, Christianity asserts that humans are more than a sack of carbon molecules.

 

[Ramon]

That's the thing, Christianity asserts that humans are more than a sack of carbon molecules.

Not so much as Christianity as God himself. Who is Spirit. Many people say ''Christianity,'' to put it in a box of religion, something people can associate with. But I don't preach Christian doctrine, nor any other doctrine other than Jesus Christ.

However, I don't want to get away from the thread. This is not a thread about Christianity, but about God. And so far, it sounds not like they don't believe in God, but that they just have an issue with him. As anyone who reads their posts can tell. I want to know the reasons!! I need a strong case. Not just presumptuous ideas based on other presumptuous ideas presumed by men.

 

[Zoomer239]

If this is so, what does your mind see in your heart then? I can tell you what is in the heart of man, rebellion, hatred, carelessness, greed, lust, pride, contention, bitterness. Does your mind agree?

You seem to have a low opinion of mankind. It is funny that I see humans as helping each other and you see us as full of hatred and carelessness. You mention that the world would be better if we followed the Ten Commandments I have to ask which version of the ten commandments are you talking about? The version that talks about not eating a calf that has been boiled in it's mothers milk is probably not going to do the world much good. People don't need the ten commandments, we do just fine with the laws we write and uphold with in our legal systems. (sure they are not perfect but they can be made better as we learn more)

Here is the core of the atheist argument.
1) there is evidence that things work by natural causes.
2) there are ways to learn how those things work (scientific method)
3) there does not seem to be any evidence of anything that is supernatural.
4) religious documents have proved to be inaccurate and contradictory, illogical and blatantly fraudulent (Not good evidence) I was trying to insert a link to an article about how the bible has been changed over the years but i don't know how to get the link to work for you all. (you can find it at Beliefnet.
5) humans have made up thousands of gods throughout their history.
6) arguments for god are illogical, (circular arguments etc.)
7) the credibility of the evidence for god is suspect (what was good evidence 2000 years ago is laughable today)
8) science seems to explain nature better and with more accuracy than religion.
9) Each religion's explanation of god is contradictory with the other religion's descriptions. (more likely that they are all wrong)
10) the gods that are described by each religion fail to match reality in any meaningful way.
11) people tend to be the religion of their parents and their communities. (Americans don't tend to have religious revelations that Ra or Thor or Shiva are the real god, and people in India don't have revelations that include scientology as the correct way) religion is a cultural phenomenon i.e. it is made up.

I could go on and on but that is a basic list. I'm sure that others could make a better list but this is good enough for now.

 

[Red_Tory]

People don't need the ten commandments, we do just fine with the laws we write and uphold with in our legal systems. (sure they are not perfect but they can be made better as we learn more)

Aside from issues of whether or not we do "just fine" with our own set of laws, there is still the notion of the basis of all law and jurisprudence. What standard do we utilise in the creation of laws? When we set or holds the standard of justice in temporal affairs, what foundation are we to use if there are no overarching moral principles (or if there are, we must determine where they originate)? Should we hold St. Augustine's Lex Iniusta Non Est Lex to be true?

As for your list... If you're concerned with the logical process in debates then you may want to review it and remove several articles.

 

[Ramon]

You seem to have a low opinion of mankind. It is funny that I see humans as helping each other and you see us as full of hatred and carelessness. You mention that the world would be better if we followed the Ten Commandments I have to ask which version of the ten commandments are you talking about? The version that talks about not eating a calf that has been boiled in it's mothers milk is probably not going to do the world much good. People don't need the ten commandments, we do just fine with the laws we write and uphold with in our legal systems. (sure they are not perfect but they can be made better as we learn more)

Here is the core of the atheist argument.
1) there is evidence that things work by natural causes.
2) there are ways to learn how those things work (scientific method)
3) there does not seem to be any evidence of anything that is supernatural.
4) religious documents have proved to be inaccurate and contradictory, illogical and blatantly fraudulent (Not good evidence) I was trying to insert a link to an article about how the bible has been changed over the years but i don't know how to get the link to work for you all. (you can find it at Beliefnet.
5) humans have made up thousands of gods throughout their history.
6) arguments for god are illogical, (circular arguments etc.)
7) the credibility of the evidence for god is suspect (what was good evidence 2000 years ago is laughable today)
8) science seems to explain nature better and with more accuracy than religion.
9) Each religion's explanation of god is contradictory with the other religion's descriptions. (more likely that they are all wrong)
10) the gods that are described by each religion fail to match reality in any meaningful way.
11) people tend to be the religion of their parents and their communities. (Americans don't tend to have religious revelations that Ra or Thor or Shiva are the real god, and people in India don't have revelations that include scientology as the correct way) religion is a cultural phenomenon i.e. it is made up.

I could go on and on but that is a basic list. I'm sure that others could make a better list but this is good enough for now.

I will answer the first part in this post and the argument, which is the first on this thread in a 2nd post. And you are right I have a very low opinion of mankind. And it seems you don't know the ten commandments. I will give them to you:

1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. *
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 ¶Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Exodus 20

By the way, your laws are constantly being amended whereas the laws of God need no amendment. And all his laws are summed up in this. Love God with all your heart mind and soul, and you neighbor as yourself. I will answer you argument in another post.

 

[Ramon]

Here is the core of the atheist argument.
1) there is evidence that things work by natural causes.
2) there are ways to learn how those things work (scientific method)
3) there does not seem to be any evidence of anything that is supernatural.
4) religious documents have proved to be inaccurate and contradictory, illogical and blatantly fraudulent (Not good evidence) I was trying to insert a link to an article about how the bible has been changed over the years but i don't know how to get the link to work for you all. (you can find it at Beliefnet.
5) humans have made up thousands of gods throughout their history.
6) arguments for god are illogical, (circular arguments etc.)
7) the credibility of the evidence for god is suspect (what was good evidence 2000 years ago is laughable today)
8) science seems to explain nature better and with more accuracy than religion.
9) Each religion's explanation of god is contradictory with the other religion's descriptions. (more likely that they are all wrong)
10) the gods that are described by each religion fail to match reality in any meaningful way.
11) people tend to be the religion of their parents and their communities. (Americans don't tend to have religious revelations that Ra or Thor or Shiva are the real god, and people in India don't have revelations that include scientology as the correct way) religion is a cultural phenomenon i.e. it is made up.

So, I see this is your ten commandments huh? or 11?

1) where?
2) hmm
3) nope
4) Duh
5) Duh
6) says who?
7) So you say
8) what?
9) Duh
10) Duh
11) Duh

Seems like you are only stating the obvious. You are talking about the fallacies of men, yet you have such a high opinion of them. Hmm. And you serve a god also, one you also have made up, and you follow the doctrine of that religion, your books you read on biblical issues, they are your doctrine books, and you follow their writers.

But I follow neither the writers of books nor the preachers on pews, nor the bible, nor science, nor man nor woman. I follow God himself. And though I sometimes quake at his standards I am sure they are good. But as for yours, and even mine, we fall short. Try again.

 

[Tobby17]

I don't understand why some Atheist comes into a christian site to speak blasphemous words. Let's watch what we say plzz.
Now to the point Zoomer239,

Now do u think it's normal for a crash to happen and everyone dies apart from a person and this person co-incidentally is a christain?, How do u explain the signs and wonders, all the miracles that are going on in the life right now?. And if u don't believe in miracles, I'll tell u something now, u will believe in miracles when u need 1!!!!.
And Solr90, what makes Elijah so unreal? what makes you believe that the events in the bible never took place?.What makes you believe that God doesn't exist?. And How do we know that this things never happened.

Just because u weren't there doesn't mean that they didn't happen!

But i don't expect dis to convince u both anyway, the bible already explains that to them who perish all these messages don't make sense!!!!

 

[Forlorn-Hope]

When have any of the laws you just mentioned ever been amended.

 

[Forlorn-Hope]

I don't understand why some Atheist comes into a christian site to speak blasphemous words. Let's watch what we say plzz.
Now to the point Zoomer239,

Now do u think it's normal for a crash to happen and everyone dies apart from a person and this person co-incidentally is a christain?, How do u explain the signs and wonders, all the miracles that are going on in the life right now?. And if u don't believe in miracles, I'll tell u something now, u will believe in miracles when u need 1!!!!.
And Solr90, what makes Elijah so unreal? what makes you believe that the events in the bible never took place?.What makes you believe that God doesn't exist?. And How do we know that this things never happened.

Just because u weren't there doesn't mean that they didn't happen!

But i don't expect dis to convince u both anyway, the bible already explains that to them who perish all these messages don't make sense!!!!

]

What if there not Christian what if there Muslim ? Im sure it's happened. Or atheist or Budhist what then huh ? they coincidentally survived. But if its christian it was devine intervention right ?