Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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OIC1965

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throughfaith said:
If its Israel, Jews, individuals, whoever is being addressed its not ' to salvation ' ,but to service and purpose . I don't see anywhere that elect means ' to be converted'
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No one said it did. But we have Romans 8:29-30 which connects foreknowledge with and leading to predestination, justification, and glorification.

And first Peter 1:1-2 says that we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

Foreknowledge means to know before.
 
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OIC1965

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throughfaith said:
Surely without going into philosophy and speculation, its clear we didn't exist before the foundation. But obviously Jesus did . From this we can see that we need to be born first before we have the option to choose God ?
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What does that have to do with God’s foreknowing, electing, and predestining us?
 
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OIC1965

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throughfaith said:
God predestines those he knows as sons . Is God Confused when He says " I never knew you " ?
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If God knows from eternity past that He is going to adopt someone, it follows that He also chose from eternity past to adopt that person.

If God chooses from eternity past to adopt someone, it follows that person was predestined from eternity past to be adopted.
 
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throughfaith

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OIC1965 said:
No one said it did. But we have Romans 8:29-30 which connects foreknowledge with and leading to predestination, justification, and glorification.

And first Peter 1:1-2 says that we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

Foreknowledge means to know before.
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Elected for what according to foreknowledge?
 
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throughfaith

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OIC1965 said:
If God knows from eternity past that He is going to adopt someone, it follows that He also chose from eternity past to adopt that person.

If God chooses from eternity past to adopt someone, it follows that person was predestined from eternity past to be adopted.
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I don't see which scripture is teaching what your saying? We see that God predestines those in him to the adoption . All this ' from eternity past ' is philosophy . Let's stay with what the bible actually says. I don't assume all this ' in the mind of God ' stuff . I accept that until we believe we are strangers and without hope . Eph 2 .11-13 .
 
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OIC1965

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throughfaith said:
I don't see which scripture is teaching what your saying? We see that God predestines those in him to the adoption . All this ' from eternity past ' is philosophy . Let's stay with what the bible actually says. I don't assume all this ' in the mind of God ' stuff . I accept that until we believe we are strangers and without hope . Eph 2 .11-13 .
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Ephesians 1:4-5.
 
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OIC1965

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throughfaith said:
I don't see which scripture is teaching what your saying? We see that God predestines those in him to the adoption . All this ' from eternity past ' is philosophy . Let's stay with what the bible actually says. I don't assume all this ' in the mind of God ' stuff . I accept that until we believe we are strangers and without hope . Eph 2 .11-13 .
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What does Ephesians 2:11-13 have to do with foreknowledge or predestination?
 
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throughfaith

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#2,114
OIC1965 said:
If God knows from eternity past that He is going to adopt someone, it follows that He also chose from eternity past to adopt that person.

If God chooses from eternity past to adopt someone, it follows that person was predestined from eternity past to be adopted.
Click to expand...
What God did decide before Genesis 1:1 was that some day He would send Jesus Christ to die for the sins of mankind (1 Pet. 1:20; Rev. 13:8). He decided then that any sinner who appropriated that sacrifice as his own would be chosen by God to be His son. But that election did not take effect until the sinner, in time, received Jesus Christ as His Saviour. Calvin’s problem was that he divorced God’s sovereignty (God can do whatever He wants) from His nature and His words. God would never choose any sinner in his natural, Adamic state to be one of His children, and He never said He would. A sinner has to be changed first. That change only occurs when a man is put in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17), and the Holy Spirit won’t place any man in Christ until he obeys the command of God to believe (Acts 16:31) and receive Jesus Christ (John 1:12). Obedience is a conscious choice made by the free will of a sinner. Old Testament sinners did it all of the time with no regeneration involved (Lev. 22:18–23; Num. 15:3, 29:39; Deut. 12:6, 17; Ezra 7:13,16). Always count on John Calvin to make a perfect mess of things.
 
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OIC1965

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#2,115
throughfaith said:
What God did decide before Genesis 1:1 was that some day He would send Jesus Christ to die for the sins of mankind (1 Pet. 1:20; Rev. 13:8). He decided then that any sinner who appropriated that sacrifice as his own would be chosen by God to be His son. But that election did not take effect until the sinner, in time, received Jesus Christ as His Saviour. Calvin’s problem was that he divorced God’s sovereignty (God can do whatever He wants) from His nature and His words. God would never choose any sinner in his natural, Adamic state to be one of His children, and He never said He would. A sinner has to be changed first. That change only occurs when a man is put in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17), and the Holy Spirit won’t place any man in Christ until he obeys the command of God to believe (Acts 16:31) and receive Jesus Christ (John 1:12). Obedience is a conscious choice made by the free will of a sinner. Old Testament sinners did it all of the time with no regeneration involved (Lev. 22:18–23; Num. 15:3, 29:39; Deut. 12:6, 17; Ezra 7:13,16). Always count on John Calvin to make a perfect mess of things.
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So you’re saying God didn’t know He was going to adopt you until when?
 
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OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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#2,116
throughfaith said:
What God did decide before Genesis 1:1 was that some day He would send Jesus Christ to die for the sins of mankind (1 Pet. 1:20; Rev. 13:8). He decided then that any sinner who appropriated that sacrifice as his own would be chosen by God to be His son. But that election did not take effect until the sinner, in time, received Jesus Christ as His Saviour. Calvin’s problem was that he divorced God’s sovereignty (God can do whatever He wants) from His nature and His words. God would never choose any sinner in his natural, Adamic state to be one of His children, and He never said He would. A sinner has to be changed first. That change only occurs when a man is put in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17), and the Holy Spirit won’t place any man in Christ until he obeys the command of God to believe (Acts 16:31) and receive Jesus Christ (John 1:12). Obedience is a conscious choice made by the free will of a sinner. Old Testament sinners did it all of the time with no regeneration involved (Lev. 22:18–23; Num. 15:3, 29:39; Deut. 12:6, 17; Ezra 7:13,16). Always count on John Calvin to make a perfect mess of things.
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So when did God find out you were going to believe? And is it not true that He knew and predestined He was going to adopt you as soon as He knew you were going to believe?

“ but He always knew...”.

So how does God not choose and predestine what He knows will happen beforehand? If He knew He was going to do it, it follows that He chose to do it. Or maybe He wasn’t sure?

Or did He know He was going to do it, but not by choice, but was compelled by something outside of Himself?

Kind of strange anthropomorphism to attach to God.
 
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throughfaith

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OIC1965 said:
So when did God find out you were going to believe? And is it not true that He knew He was going to adopt you as soon as He knew you were going to believe?

“ but He always knew...”.
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I have little interest in what God hasn't said in his word .
 
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throughfaith

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OIC1965 said:
No one said it did. But we have Romans 8:29-30 which connects foreknowledge with and leading to predestination, justification, and glorification.

And first Peter 1:1-2 says that we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

Foreknowledge means to know before.
Click to expand...
He knows what could happen given the choices you make. That is the condition here. The election “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” is 1) “through sanctification of the Spirit” and 2) “unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.” Tell me, when did the Holy Spirit sanctify you? When did you obey God and trust “the blood of Jesus Christ” to cleanse you from your sin? Was it in time or in eternity?
So when Paul talks about election “before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4), he is careful to say, “According as he hath chosen us IN HIM” (i.e., in Jesus Christ) “be “before the foundation of the world.” No man is in Christ until the Holy Spirit places him there (1 Cor. 12:13) at salvation (Gal. 3:26–27).
 
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