Can we learn from a study of the feasts?
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Blik said:
"We need to understand these verses. It is not the Lord reversing Himself and teaching something new. It was because the Jews were sacrificing as the pagans sacrificed: to feed the idols. God sacrificed Himself for us and it was so our sins could be forgiven. They were to sacrifice as a symbol of Christ: for the forgiveness of sin and if it was done for any other reason the Lord hated it.
When the Lord gave us the feasts, it wasn't to be for a sacrifice on our part, as the modern church thinks of them. It was for joy, feasting, celebrating. We can choose not to celebrate, but to feast as a sacrifice would not please the Lord."
I, Beez, reply: Hmmmmm. He says, "I AM the L_RD. I never change." Not a thing He has said will ever be rescinded. Nothing He has commanded will be withdrawn. What He has said is said eternally.
"We need to understand these verses. It is not the Lord reversing Himself and teaching something new. It was because the Jews were sacrificing as the pagans sacrificed: to feed the idols. God sacrificed Himself for us and it was so our sins could be forgiven. They were to sacrifice as a symbol of Christ: for the forgiveness of sin and if it was done for any other reason the Lord hated it.
When the Lord gave us the feasts, it wasn't to be for a sacrifice on our part, as the modern church thinks of them. It was for joy, feasting, celebrating. We can choose not to celebrate, but to feast as a sacrifice would not please the Lord."
I, Beez, reply: Hmmmmm. He says, "I AM the L_RD. I never change." Not a thing He has said will ever be rescinded. Nothing He has commanded will be withdrawn. What He has said is said eternally.
this is a traditional Hebrew wedding reference. a couple is treated as married from the day they are engaged, but the bride stays in the home of her parents waiting for the groom to come and snatch her away at a time unannounced. her maids should keep oil in the lamps, because it could be any time, even the midst of the night. the father of the groom arranges the wedding feast, setting the day. the groom, if asked about the secret time the father sets, says 'no man knows the hour but my father' -- even if he does know; and of course the father tells him, because the groom prepares a place for them in his fathers house, while the bride is to wait, prepared at any time, waiting for his return.
this doesn't mean Christ, who is the omniscient LORD God Almighty manifest in the flesh, doesn't know something. He knows all things.
it means He speaking of these things in terms of a marriage, in idioms the Jews who heard Him would have immediately understood.
guess why the apostles speak of our salvation in terms of marriage-- they understood Him, too, and they worshipped
I am very hesitant to apply Hebrew tradition to understanding the Bible. Was it not the Lord Jesus Himself Who said that "their traditions made the word of God to none effect"?
And, those verses seem plain to me, especially Mark 13:32. The Son does NOT know. The "FATHER" is the only One. It is often missed but the very omniscient nature of God allows Him also NOT to know, like forgetting sins committed against Him (Heb.8:12).
The good thing about such a discussion is that we can safely wait and see. No doctrine and no morals are injured for those who speculate and get it wrong. Go well bro.
I hear you. But look at it from God's point of view. He asks us to "watch". The soldier on the ramparts does not know which day and which hour, and even which minute the enemy archers might rise out their concealment and fire their deadly load. The soldier on the ramparts will be the first to die. Thus, for his OWN survival, he may never stop watching. You have proposed a "day", not the hour or the years. But the inspired Word says no one knows the DAY. I also speculate, but publically I would never venture such speculation, especially if it is at variance with the Words of the Almighty.
Those who venture a DAY or hour or year have another problem. The Lord Jesus descends to the clouds to meet His Church. On that day He has "arrived" ("erchomai" - Greek), but arrived, but not on earth. He is "present" in the clouds ("parousia" - Gk.). Following this we Christians are judged at the Bema - the traveling throne (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10). That will take some time. Then the Lord descends from the clouds to earth. He is "revealed" to men on earth ("apokalypsis" - Gk.) like lightening. Then He "arrives" on Mount Olives and is "present" on earth. The problem is, although He makes only one journey, He "arrives" in the clouds, and a while later He arrives on earth. Which one do you think will be on a Feast?
The Father has designed it as a surprise. Should we not leave it at that?
Following you.
I hope you profit much. But I, by far, don't have all the answers.
Compare Christ having a name written that "no one knows but He Himself" in Revelation 19:12 - - does the Father not know?
IMO this is yet another proof that the Father and the Son are One
And yes, wow! What a mystery is forgiveness of sin! How does omniscient God "forget"??
The question then becomes did the Lord give us the feasts or are the feasts only tradition?" I think also we need to ask ourselves if the feasts are only given to the Israelites as a reminder of God's laws or are they a celebration God suggests for us. Circumcision, mixing fabrics, special diet, etc. were given only because they helped the Israelites know and keep the law, they were physical and not the spiritual law. We don't need to follow those things.
I think the feasts are different. They teach us about the Lord and they prophesy what the Lord does for us. I think the Lord wants us to be aware of them and learn what they tell us. The enphasis in the feasts is not on a physical act, it is not specifying foods, it is praising and celebrating.
In Zechariah 14, as it speaks of the last days: Zech. 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Something that has surprised me is that some people think that the feasts were created by people.
No, they were NOT except maybe for Chanukah -- which our L_RD Himself did. Of course, we are still in the midst of Chanukah, and there are definitely lessons to be learned in it.
When Yeshua created and gave the idea of the feasts and festivals, they were for our education and most of them for our fun and families. He understood that learning has to include both serious, deep study and some fun. That just thrills me! What a Teacher!! Without these, we cannot get to the deep meanings that hit the heart and permeate it, leading us to Him.
Something else that surprises me.
The Bible. What is it? The whole Bible is our Ketubah! How the Bride is to marry the Groom, how we are to keep ourselves for Him alone, how we are to treat the Groom, how He will come when He comes, not on our schedule. While it definitely is about how we are to treat one another both socially and in our marriages and families, it is not just about us.
And people do not seem interested!!
I am far from perfect in all things, but He has graciously given us His Ketubah, and when I read it, I learn what I need to know.
No, they were NOT except maybe for Chanukah -- which our L_RD Himself did. Of course, we are still in the midst of Chanukah, and there are definitely lessons to be learned in it.
When Yeshua created and gave the idea of the feasts and festivals, they were for our education and most of them for our fun and families. He understood that learning has to include both serious, deep study and some fun. That just thrills me! What a Teacher!! Without these, we cannot get to the deep meanings that hit the heart and permeate it, leading us to Him.
Something else that surprises me.
The Bible. What is it? The whole Bible is our Ketubah! How the Bride is to marry the Groom, how we are to keep ourselves for Him alone, how we are to treat the Groom, how He will come when He comes, not on our schedule. While it definitely is about how we are to treat one another both socially and in our marriages and families, it is not just about us.
And people do not seem interested!!
I am far from perfect in all things, but He has graciously given us His Ketubah, and when I read it, I learn what I need to know.
The Feasts are not tradition. They form a part of the Law of Moses. My objection was not to the Feasts. My objection was seeking to understand them via Jewish traditions.
By the way, you probably know this, but because there is no Temple, every Jew in the world is a Law-breaker. The Feasts cannot be accomplished annually without a Temple (Deut.12:5-14). And no exception, nor alternative, is made for Israel in the Law. The loss of their Temple is a result of their Law-breaking. God makes no alternatives for Law-breakers. They had a Covenant and were expected to keep their side of the deal. Our Lord Jesus, Chiefest of Jews and King by Covenant with David, must forego the Feasts too (Lk.22:15-16)
Of course, as you pointed out in Zechariah 14, Israel will be restored and their King and Messiah will dwell in their midst again. I judge that the Temple that then will stand, is the Temple of Ezekiel. And because the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 is one of the Laws of God, the Feasts will continue in the Messianic age. This is a good reason why the twelve Apostles, who will sit on twelve thrones, each judging a Tribe of Israel, but who are Christians, are made "administrators" (lit. Gk.) of the New Covenant (2nd Cor.3:6).