The star of Betleham and bible prophecy

Blain · Dec 18, 2020

you are correct that there was no mention of how many magi there were in fact since they were people under Heralds rule they likely had protection crossing enemy territory as they were gentiles and not Jews they are actually called something else but I cannot remember what it was called

Should the church seek advice from the stars? No because they themselves do not speak but paying attention to the signs he gives them is a different matter, the scriptures say there will be signs in the sun the moon and the stars but if we don't look up and have the understanding to see them then we cannot know the signs,

The wis men or magi however though they were not Hebrew knew to look to the stars and what to look for God has written his story in the stars but unless one takes the time to actually study it then they will just discard it, , but have you yourself studied it? If not then how can you say it is wrong?

Blain · Dec 18, 2020

SoulWeaver said:

Yes your right they came to his hiouse and Jesus was in fact a babe but their arrival was one that began before he was conceived they had to travel nearly a thousand miles following the star the entire time, I cannot explain it enough to do it justice the video I watched can the only issue is that I know since it is a long one many would take the time to watch it, only those who actually want to seek the truth of the matter would have the patience to do so

All your questions are actually in that video

SoulWeaver · Dec 18, 2020

Blain said:

It is true that the star might've started shining before the birth of Jesus, didn't have to appear on that very day, that's a possibility, indeed.

Them stating the king was already born, totally doesn't fit the traditional narrative, in which they enter the cave on that same evening.
I am thinking this is our collective cognitive bias here, because we're so used to this story being told in a certain way.

Jesus was up to 2 years old when they arrived. How do we know: Matt 2:13 tells us that when they were departed, God instructs Joseph in a dream to take the family to Egypt. They leave urgently in the night.

Matthew 2:16 Then Herod [this is soon afterwards], when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

It appears that Herod knew the general area - in Bettlehem, and the coasts thereof, majority translations say, "in Bethlehem and its vicinity". It doesn't seem like he had the Magi followed; the Scripture says the Magi made a fool of him. So how did he know this?

Maybe the Magi told him the general direction where they were going. But could it be that he asked the priests where would the future ruler of Israel be born?

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

posthuman · Dec 18, 2020

SoulWeaver said:

yes, it very well could be

When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.

So they said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet:

‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,

Are not the least among the rulers of Judah;

For out of you shall come a Ruler

Who will shepherd My people Israel.’ ”

Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the young Child, and when you have found Him, bring back word to me, that I may come and worship Him also.”

(Matthew 2:3-8)

it's interesting that Herod didn't know. he had to ask the Levites.
it's interesting that the scribes were able to look this up, or knew it as a matter of course, but they weren't searching for The Child themselves. they weren't expecting Him and already watching for Him, and they either didn't take the magi seriously or didn't care? interesting too that Herod either didn't believe the scripture at all, or didn't seem to believe that the Christ would be actually appointed by God to be king, so much as he feared that the people would want to make someone king that they believed was Christ.

it's interesting that the magi didn't know themselves, either. this kind of shoots down the popular idea that the magi were Jews from the diaspora in Babylon ((they would have had the scripture & been able to find this out themselves)). this is a widely held view - the thinking being, the wise men whose lives Daniel saved by interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's dream, and who saw Nebuchadnezzar proclaim the LORD to be the one true living God, may have come to knowledge of the coming Messiah through Daniel. they were ingratiated to Daniel and it's reasonable to believe that many became proselyte Jews.

i really think there were Chinese among the magi. records that persisted through history show three major centers of wisdom to the east of Israel: China, India, and Babylon. the view that i find most plausible is that wise men from all three places gathered. say a man sees a sign in China, and he knows it is something very deep and mysterious. there are few men on earth who he can talk to about it: men well placed in centers of learning, with idle time to devote themselves to astronomy & prophecy and wisdom, in rich and powerful kingdoms. men of high position and of a certain mind beyond temporal principalities & dynasties, who had the influence & position to be able to take the journey they did, with the gifts they brought, and appear before the king of a foreign land making inquiries. so say he goes to India -- a journey of half a year. in India he meets other wise men who have seen the same sign. they have pieces of the puzzle but they do not comprehend it all. they go to Babylon, where they meet with other wise men who have another essential piece of the puzzle -- the lineage of the teachings of Daniel. this is a year's journey. now will their pooled knowledge they know they will find the God-man in Israel. so they go to Herod and ask questions that Herod has to consult the scribes & priests in order to find the answers to. this could have 'around 2 years' or less from the appearing of the sign ((the one certain poor shepherds heard in fields where they lay keeping their sheep, ♪♫)) --- but if only people from Babylon were among the magi, they should have been there within 6 months. Babylon isn't 2 years away by camel train.

pottersclay · Dec 19, 2020

SoulWeaver said:

Some scholars believe it was taught by Daniel to watch the stars.

Blain · Dec 19, 2020

TMS said:

I don't recall setting dates I recall speaking of the sign that is coming a sign points to something it doesn't show the precise date, if anything it makes more sense to me that the feast of trumpets would be the time to expect it is actually not a specific date if I remeber correctly it is a wandering holiday it seems to land on either the 276th or the 28th but never known until the time is at hand I remember the jews did something to find out but it I can't remember what

Blain · Dec 19, 2020

pottersclay said:

I believe he actually founded the magi and they were diligent to pass the knowledge down from generation to generation I could be wrong though

Corban · Dec 19, 2020

Blain said:

I'll wait until your comments on Jeremiah are through. You have conveniently left that part unanswered.

It is reported that the late President Reagan would not leave his bed until a stargazer had read him their signs for the day. Aaahhh, that the Church would be so advised. (But then perhaps sarcasm is not becoming of a Christian.) It is predicted that in the last days Christians will heap teahers to themselves to scratch itchy ears. No doubt a sprinkling of astrologers will be there to contribute. The soldier, sailor and pilot study the stars for the "present" position. Where are we instructed to use them for the future? In Isaiah 47:12-14 we learn the mind of God on the matter of astrology and stargazers, their effect and their end ...

12 "Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.
13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it."

Turning to the New Testament, we have, in Romans Chapter 8, the command to be led by the indwelling Holy Spirit. The just shall live by faith, and the main event of the age after Christ's death is His Second Coming - for us as a "thief in the night" so that no one knows when, but the Father.

pottersclay · Dec 19, 2020

Blain said:

A interesting study to do is see what israel's enemies would do to the jews.
The Assyrians along with the Babylonians would seperate the jews and take the young children and raise and educate them in the ways of there culture.
Then they would send them back among there own to teach them the customs and beliefs.
With the adults they would marry them off in the populas to kind of breed out the jewishness .
Daniel was a product of this. He was well educated but known as a dream interpreter.
As I said a very interesting study.

posthuman · Dec 19, 2020

pottersclay said:

astronomical observation is pretty much completely absent in the history of the Jews, apart from keeping calendar by the moon. in Persia / Babylon, in Egypt, in India, in China, in Europe, etc however, ancient cultures all had long traditions of watching the stars.

just from what's known about history, it's more likely that Daniel was taught such things by the Babylonians - who already had astronomers long before they conquered Israel - and that Daniel in turn was able to give them more right interpretations. remember, these people were worshipping the planets as gods -- it's not like they didn't look up at the sky until Daniel told them to.

posthuman · Dec 19, 2020

pottersclay said:

just as Daniel would have been taught all the wisdom and science and lore of Babylon/Persia, Moses interestingly would have been taught all the lore & wisdom and science of Egypt, growing up as a prince in Pharaoh's household.

Webers.Home · Dec 19, 2020

.
• Matt 2:8-9a . . And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said: Go and search
diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word
again, that I may come and worship him also.

. . .When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which
they saw in the east, went before them,

A star that moves from the east towards the west is normal. But a star that
moves from the north to the south, is unheard of.

• Matt 2:9b . . It came and stood over where the young child was.

I have been outside at night on many occasions during my 76 years on this
planet and have never been able to tell which of the stars in the sky were
directly over my head. And if I move this way or that way, the stars move
with me; which makes the task all that more difficult. The problem is,
normal stars, and planets too, are so far away that the angle of their
parallax is much too small for the naked eye to detect.

So then, in order for that star to direct the wise men to the precise location
where the child was housed, it would have to be very low in the sky; for sure
at least in the atmosphere rather than out in the void.

Plus: people, as a rule, didn't travel at night back in that day due to
insufficient means of illumination; so the men very likely followed the star in
broad daylight. Well; as most people are aware, the stars are near to
impossible for the naked eye to see in broad daylight due to the sun's
brilliance.

So then, I must conclude that the star that led the men wasn't a celestial
object, rather, it was a special apparition instead.

The question often arises: How did the men know to follow the star?

Well; that's not too difficult to sleuth. According to Matt 2:12 I'm pretty sure
that we may safely assume the men had been in touch with God the entire
expedition from first to last.
_

Blain · Dec 19, 2020

Corban said:

I apologize for not answering that part. The scripture does speak of not worshipping the stars and back then all kinds of groups of pagan worshippers arose some to this day still exist, the worship of celestial beings even alludes to witchcraft some who are even very active sadly I know this because I met one once.

They don't have any one particular name they go by many some even say they are the enlightened ones and and it also goes back to the egyptions Gods as they assigned each God with a certain star or planet.
This I think is what the scriptures were talking about the art of reading and worshipping the celestial beings but satan also copies and corrupts anything God does or makes he was the first to set the stars into their positions and it isn't as if he doesn't place everything in their exact positions for no reason the earth for instance is precisely set in place where it is as to be not to close nor to far from the sun the same thing with the moon
of course it is different to study and read the map written in the heavens than to worship them, for people who study the heavens not to worship or rely on them but to pay attention to the signs especially in the times we are in where we are entering the last phase of the church era, the scriptures say there will be signs in sun the moon and the stars for a reason.
Of course many would look to far into such things and begin to see things not there according to their imaginations this is where the line is crossed.
This star as it turns out is not the star of Bethlehem it is called now the star of Christmas by some and others still call it the sign of the light overtaking the darkness.
Jupitere is the king planet rep[resenting Jesus the king and saturn the devil representing darkness but even if one studies these things I still recommend to anyone to take it with a grain of salt it is well and good to pay attention to the signs but our focus is to remain of Christ.

Blain · Dec 19, 2020

Webers.Home said:

.
• Matt 2:8-9a . . And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said: Go and search
diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word
again, that I may come and worship him also.

. . .When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which
they saw in the east, went before them,

A star that moves from the east towards the west is normal. But a star that
moves from the north to the south, is unheard of.

• Matt 2:9b . . It came and stood over where the young child was.

I have been outside at night on many occasions during my 76 years on this
planet and have never been able to tell which of the stars in the sky were
directly over my head. And if I move this way or that way, the stars move
with me; which makes the task all that more difficult. The problem is,
normal stars, and planets too, are so far away that the angle of their
parallax is much too small for the naked eye to detect.

So then, in order for that star to direct the wise men to the precise location
where the child was housed, it would have to be very low in the sky; for sure
at least in the atmosphere rather than out in the void.

Plus: people, as a rule, didn't travel at night back in that day due to
insufficient means of illumination; so the men very likely followed the star in
broad daylight. Well; as most people are aware, the stars are near to
impossible for the naked eye to see in broad daylight due to the sun's
brilliance.

So then, I must conclude that the star that led the men wasn't a celestial
object, rather, it was a special apparition instead.

The question often arises: How did the men know to follow the star?

Well; that's not too difficult to sleuth. According to Matt 2:12 I'm pretty sure
that we may safely assume the men had been in touch with God the entire
expedition from first to last.
_

yes very true the star of bethlehem was considered a supernatural event as the way our solar rotation works it would be impossible for the star to act in the way it did, from our perspective everything seems to stand still up there but is in fact always moving and rotating this makes me think of how pour perspective of things differs so greatly from God's perspective

Corban · Dec 19, 2020

Webers.Home said:

There are a couple of tricks. The Egyptians built large flat-top effigies that were built very accurately magnetic north south. In the center was a shaft over 10 meters deep (34 ft), open at the top. At the bottom was a container of crystal clear water and a gunsight with a seat. The astrologer sat on the seat and looked down through the gunsight at the water. If you go deeper than 10 meters in a shaft and look up, you can see the stars at during daylight. The astrologer looked down through the gunsight into a reflection of the stars in the water - to avoid parallax error. The effigy was a flat top triangular building called a truncated pyramid. As the Egyptians had no way of getting True North, they used magnetic north. This, as we know, and so did the Egyptians, moves some miles every year. So after a time the pyramid became useless as an astrological institute. It was then given a cap - like the one on your $1 bill, and a new one was built - perfectly accurately north south.

The elite and "illumined ones" of Egypt knew that the world was a sphere, knew its physical dimensions and knew that it was slightly flat at the poles. Makes you think when you remember that men were being burnt at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church some 3,500 years later for saying the that world was round - just to keep the peasants from getting too clever and being emancipated. Is it not interesting that the Roman Church lost the battle just about the time of the Reformation.

Just thinking.

Webers.Home · Dec 19, 2020

.

Corban said:

So in your opinion, the wise men transported one (or both) of these tricks
with them on their journey to Jerusalem, and from thence south to
Bethlehem?

It would've been interesting to watch them go around digging pits and
getting everything set up from house to house till they found the right one.
Well one thing they had to their advantage; the star stood still so they
wouldn't have to go chasing after it with their equipment.
_

Blik · Dec 20, 2020

[

Corban said:

The Lord does not want us to look to astrology for our guidance, but look to the Lord. There is a big difference between this and looking to the stars as God's creation.

I spent seven years working on a fishing boat. Often, the men who I worked with were rebels who believed in spiritualism, or the occult. Whenever there was a solstice or a new moon, there was more call for the police in their life. This was only true of the rebels among them, people who are guided by the Christian faith are steady, their lives remain unchanged by the stars.

reneweddaybyday · Dec 20, 2020

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years

God put lights in the heavens for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. These signs, seasons, days, years are God's doing. And yes the adversary has set up a counterfeit system in order to dupe mankind. However, what the adversary has done in no way affects what God has done.

And I am in agreement that we are not to be carried away by winds of doctrine, nor are we to worship creation. We are to worship Creator and enjoy that which He has given to us. I like looking at the stars, especially when I'm in the mountains or the desert and the milky way is magnificently on display.

The magi, having seen the sign in the heavens, traveled to see Him that is born King of the Jews because they had seen His star (Matt 2:2). This was a heavenly display that was unique and specifically tied to Messiah.

I love that God was gracious to the magi and they were able to see the King of the Jews. They were exceedingly joyful at seeing His star and they worshipped Him (Matt 2:10-11). I love that God also warned them to go back to their country another way (Matt 2:12) and then God further warned Joseph to flee to Egypt (Matt 2:13).

And I love that God blessed the shepherds, who saw Messiah shortly after He was born ... still wrapped in swaddling clothes ... and God blessed Simeon and Anna in allowing both of them to see Messiah as shown in Luke 2.

Yahshua · Dec 20, 2020

Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Psalm 19:1-7
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact expression of his nature, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Genesis 15:5 [brackets mine]
And he brought [Abraham] forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

-----

The stars in the heavens serve as a calendar/clock and as a witness to declare only one Person's story: the story of the Messiah. If they're used for anything other than that it's a perversion of their purpose.

Job 38:31-33
31 Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades or loosen the belt of Orion? 32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear and her cubs? 33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth?

Planets
Sun: Radiance
Moon: Reflection/Accompanying
Jupiter: Righteous
Saturn: Sabbath/Peace
Mars: Blood/Sacrifice
Venus: Morning/Beauty
Mercury: Messenger

Major Constellations (in proper order)
Virgo: The Promised Seed of the virgin

Libra: The Scales of Justice paid in full

Scorpio: The One who wounds is trampled underfoot

Sagittarius: The two natured overcomer (Human & Divine)

Capricorn: Sacrificial Lamb; Transformation (resurrection)

Aquarius: Living Waters Poured Out (Holy Spirit)

Pisces: Multiplication of "Fishes" (church)

Aries: Enthronement of Lamb

Taurus: Judgment of The Nations

Gemini: The Marriage/Union/Consumation

Cancer: Gathering of The Redeemed (from four corners/winds)

Leo: Triumph and Rending of Enemies; King of All

You'll notice that the constellations are another witness to the overarching story of the Messiah found in the scriptures. It's possible that this is why the Almighty told Abraham to "count the stars" because the Hebrew word used for "count" can also mean "recount" or "tell" (as in, telling the story). The constellation images aren't based on the shapes each group of stars makes, but are based on the name each star has within each group that tells details of the story.

Isaiah 40:26
Look up and see! Who created these? He brings out the stars by number; he calls all of them by name. Because of his great power and strength, not one of them is missing.

Psalm 147:4
He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

Solar and Lunar Eclipses were always warning signs of Judgment...

Joel 2:30-31
30 I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and awesome Day of the LORD

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

While planetary conjunctions were warning signs of significance...

Matthew 2:2
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

[Star Regulus ("king") in Leo + planet Jupiter ("righteous") = King of Righteousness (Melchi + zedek)]

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

----

So the conjunction of Jupiter (righteous?) and Saturn (sabbath/peace?) in Capricorn (transformation/resurrection?) is most likely a warning sign of significance, but the knowledge was stolen and perverted so much that we can't be sure until after an event has occurred later on (if one occurs at all).

Corban · Dec 20, 2020

Webers.Home said:

.

So in your opinion, the wise men transported one (or both) of these tricks
with them on their journey to Jerusalem, and from thence south to
Bethlehem?

It would've been interesting to watch them go around digging pits and
getting everything set up from house to house till they found the right one.
Well one thing they had to their advantage; the star stood still so they
wouldn't have to go chasing after it with their equipment.
_

I guess I asked for that.

The star of Betleham and bible prophecy

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