If YESUAH says that the wicked is gather FIRST, WHY ARE some people looking for a rapture,??? Who does the say was taken in the flood.???

Absolutely · Dec 19, 2020

Who said anything about scattered? The word is 'harpazo' which means to be seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively . The same word is used to describe when Paul was 'caught up' to the third heaven, and when the Male Child is 'caught up to God's throne and when Philip was snatched away from the eunuch.

The reason that the word church/ekklesia is not used again, is because the church is no longer on the earth. In chapters 1 thru 3, the word ekklesia is used 19 times and then it is never used during the narrative of God's wrath. Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the church being gathered up by that voice that sounds like a trumpet, which is the Lords, saying "come up here"

You are correct in that this is referring to Israel, the setting up of the abomination and their fleeing out into the wilderness, but the Lord's return to end the age also involves all of the inhabitants of the earth:

"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all peoples on earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen."

The teaching that the 'one taken' is the gathering of the church is an old teaching and a false one. Those who are taken in the parable are the wicked at the end of the age, for they are being compared to those wicked who were taken away in flood. So the comparison is wicked to wicked. These are the ones who are collected by the angels at the end of the age and will be brought back to where the Lord is to be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from His mouth, which is figurative for the word of God. In Luke's version when the Lord says 'one will be taken and the other left' the disciples ask "Where, Lord?" That is, where are they going to be taken? And the Lord replies with "wherever there is a carcass, there will the vultures gather." This is in reference to Rev.19:17-18 where when Jesus is returning to the earth and angel will be gathering all of the birds of the air to eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people. The church is not in view here, for this event takes place when the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age. Those who are taken will be the wicked. Those who will be left will be the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints.

No one is worthy of the resurrection and being caught up! It is a promise to all who are having faith, regardless of what level. Those who received Christ and turned back to willfully living according to the sinful nature and are therefore not watching, these will be gathered. These are those whose lamps have gone out and have no extra oil when the bridegroom comes.

To answer the OP question "Why did our Lord say that the Tares are harvested FIRST?" Because they are going to be gathered by the angels to be killed by that double-edged sword. Those left will be Israel and the great tribulation saints who will enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. This has nothing to do with the gathering/rapture of the church, but has to do with the wicked who at the end of the age are gathered by the angels. Those who are left, will be the remnant of Israel and the saints who come out of the great tribulation.

As I continue to make known, the church cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. And if you have the church as being the 'ones taken' then it would put them through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment which is the wrath of God and which believers within the church are not appointed to suffer. Because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath, satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe.

Now if you are wondering as to why the great tribulation saints will be here, it is because they will not have been believers prior to the time when the church is gathered. They become believers after the gathering of the church which puts them on the earth during the time of God's wrath.

"" I continue to make known, the church cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. And if you have the church as being the 'ones taken' then it would put them through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment which is the wrath of God and which believers within the church are not appointed to suffer. Because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath, satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. ""

Jesus framed the one taken/left as BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Pretrib gathering of half the church.
100% in harmony of the 10 virgin parable...also half taken.

Another obstacle is you have a vile devil servant with the mark of the beast in bed with a believer.

Not plausable.

Ahwatukee · Dec 19, 2020

Absolutely said:

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away."

Actually, according to the scripture what will be happing prior to the flood is that, people will be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, planting and building. The flood takes place after that. In the same way, when they say 'peace and security' then sudden destruction will come upon them.

The 'one's taken' are being compared to those taken away in the flood. So, the comparison is wicked to wicked.

After God's wrath has completed, the Lord will arrive on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. At that time He will send out His angels and they will first gather the weeds/wicked. As Previously posted, in Luke's version, Jesus says:

==============================================================================================
I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
=============================================================================================

The reference to the dead body and the vultures gathering is referring to the following which takes place as Jesus is returning to the earth to end the age:

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” - Rev.19:17-18

The 'one's taken' will are the weeds/wicked who will be collected first and will be taken by the angels to Armageddon, where they will be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds from His mouth and the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh.

I don't believe that two people being in the same bed is what the scripture is saying. If you look at the other versions, it is a comparison of two people doing the same thing, two men in the field, two women grinding grain. The literal says "there will be two upon one bed." However, that does not necessarily mean on the same bed. That's a very weak claim in order to prove that this is referring to the gathering of the church.

Then as I demonstrated above, if this was referring to the gathering of the church, the Lord's response of "Wherever the carcass is (dead body), there will the vultures gather," would make no sense in regards to the gathering of the church.

The 'one's taken' are taken by the angels to be killed, where the birds that the angel gathers will eat their flesh.

"And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse. And all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."

Pilgrimshope · Dec 19, 2020

Absolutely said:

so Paul’s wrong then ? Well that would explain it 😅

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭K

doesn’t seem as if they are all
Martyred but more like some have gone beforehand having passed on and others will remain until the day he returns just like in moses days seemingly ordinary Life to the people not hearing what God said not before the end but the day he returns

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

...Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:26-27, 30-31,

many bear the mark of the beast now the mark of satans children in the world

“He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world;

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

the harvest is the end of the world;

and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:37-43‬ ‭

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:

whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the mark appears on the forehead and the hand representing the mind And belief and the actions we perform. Satan marks the mind and the deeds follow or we accept the gospel and God puts his mark upon us . One day the world will be existing and Jesus will return that day those still here will be gathered changed instantly to thier spiritual form and caught up into the sky with the lord and the rest of his kingdom

those remaining will suffer the fate of the lost one group is caught up those children of God and one group is left for the fire the children of Satan and his angels

salvation is about now the existing spiritual warfare between Satan and Gods children on earth , once we leave the earth our battle is over we’ve “fought the good fight and finished the race “ we can be saved now or lost now depending on our response to the gospel concerning the son of God

Absolutely · Dec 19, 2020

Pilgrimshope said:

so Paul’s wrong then ? Well that would explain it 😅

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭K

doesn’t seem as if they are all
Martyred but more like some have gone beforehand having passed on and others will remain until the day he returns just like in moses days seemingly ordinary Life to the people not hearing what God said not before the end but the day he returns

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

...Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:26-27, 30-31,

many bear the mark of the beast now the mark of satans children in the world

“He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world;

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

the harvest is the end of the world;

and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:37-43‬ ‭

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:

whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the mark appears on the forehead and the hand representing the mind And belief and the actions we perform. Satan marks the mind and the deeds follow or we accept the gospel and God puts his mark upon us . One day the world will be existing and Jesus will return that day those still here will be gathered changed instantly to thier spiritual form and caught up into the sky with the lord and the rest of his kingdom

those remaining will suffer the fate of the lost one group is caught up those children of God and one group is left for the fire the children of Satan and his angels

salvation is about now the existing spiritual warfare between Satan and Gods children on earth , once we leave the earth our battle is over we’ve “fought the good fight and finished the race “ we can be saved now or lost now depending on our response to the gospel concerning the son of God

You got it backwards.

If there is a gathering in rev 14 DURING THE GT,then you place the dead rising AFTER THE LIVING.

Paul got it right
You got it backwards.
You got the dead rising after the living of rev 14.

Yes pretrib rapture big time.

Take a look.
Jesus is on a horse at the 2nd coming. You guys are oblivious that Jesus comes on a horse.

Jesus comes on a cloud WITH A SICKLE to gather those ripe fruit DURING THE GT in rev 14.
Jesus comes WITH NO HORSE in mat 25 10 virgin parable.

Jesus ascends WITH NO HORSE IN ACTS 1.
The angel "....Jesus shall return IN LIKE MANNER"
NO HORSE...."LIKE MANNER"

You guys have such poorly thought out doctrine.

Absolutely · Dec 19, 2020

Boom
More postrib rapture destruction.

Ahwatukee · Dec 19, 2020

Absolutely said:

Good day, Absolutely!

Not everyone refusing the mark dies. The decree for those who will not worship the beast or his image will be death, but that does not mean that everyone is captured. If you have all of the saints die in the great tribulation, then there would be no Gentiles to enter into the millennial kingdom. However, we know from the scripture regarding the end of the age, that the nations will beat their weapons of war into plowshares and pruning hooks and that the Lord will settle disputes between many nations.

The gathering that the angels will be doing when the Lord returns, will be of those who made it alive through the entire tribulation period of both the wicked and the righteous. The wicked will be killed by the double-edged sword that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord and the righteous consisting of both Israel and the great tribulation saints will enter into the millennial kingdom.

"from one end of heaven to the other" does not mean that people are being resurrected and caught up. Let me give you and example of the usage of the same phrase:

"They are coming from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens—the LORD and the weapons of His wrath—to destroy the whole country." - Isaiah 13:5

So, the reference to "from the ends of the heavens" is referring to armies coming from faraway lands. Likewise, in Matt.24:30 which says that the angels "will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other," it is figurative referring to gathering the elect from the four corners of the earth.

At the gathering of the church, angels do not gather the dead who rise, nor those living who are changed and caught up. They will rise and be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies which will be raised in power. When the Lord calls up the church with a voice that sounds like a trumpet, the dead and living will rise up to meet the Lord in the air under their own power.

ewq1938 · Dec 19, 2020

bud62 said:

The rapture/harpazo takes place at the second coming, just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
The tares are gathered to be burned at the GWTJ which is long after the second coming. This is the tares being gathered and burned:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

ewq1938 · Dec 19, 2020

There are two harvests at two different times.

The first gathering or harvest is known as the rapture and it is for those loyal to Christ. Those not raptured are physically punished. This is shown in Rev 14:

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is the rapture by Christ.

Revelation 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And this is what happens to those Christ did not rapture.

However, the order is reversed for the other harvest which occurs roughly 1000 years later:

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Above we have the parable but lets skip down to the explanation of it by Christ:

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

They ask for him to explain.

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The end of the world is the actual end of the world. The "end of the world" is used for different times in scripture so we have to identify the events described to determine exactly what time frame is meant.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Two things happen at this time. The wicked are gathered together first and burned in a furnace of fire and the righteous "forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". This is an obvious description of judgment day when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire while the righteous are given eternal life. That happens long after the second coming which identifies these events as being at the end of this age, the great white throne judgement found in Rev 20:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This explains why description of the second coming show the righteous being gathered up first and the wicked second while this one parable says the wicked are gathered first and the righteous second. It's all a matter of time frame where the orders are reversed.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 19, 2020

The "WHEAT" is who ENTERS the earthly MK age ['the age [singular] to come' Matt12:32], at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth [Rev19]; the "TARES" do not.

The phrase in Matt13 is "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (rather than "the end of the world"); Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (and is the same Subject Jesus covers, in His response to their later Q of Him in Matt24:3/Olivet Discourse--speaking of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth).

Absolutely · Dec 20, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

I would need to re read my post,but it appears you only addressed one point of mine.

That second part about some resurrection after the gt is not my belief.

But anyway I am not trying to defend an idea about the mil population.

The mil population does not hinge on the ac killing believers.
That is what it says. The AC kills all refusing the mark.
All believers are at a crossroad. All left behind either take the mark or die.

It says "every man,woman and child,both bond and free..."

You keep saying "no not all believers die"

It says "power was given to him to overcome the saints"

You say nope,they live till the end of the gt.

It says "and they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony ,AND THEY LOVED NOT THEIR LIVES UNTO DEATH"

IOW THEY WERE MARTYRED.

it says early in the Gt that there is an INNUMERABLE NUMBER of martyrs before the throne in heaven.

Billions? innumerable?

If the word is true,and every believer on the earth is martyred,it would indeed be INNUMERABLE.....BILLIONS.

I believe it is clear that all of the believers die.

Absolutely · Dec 20, 2020

ewq1938 said:

There are two harvests at two different times.

The first gathering or harvest is known as the rapture and it is for those loyal to Christ. Those not raptured are physically punished. This is shown in Rev 14:

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is the rapture by Christ.

Revelation 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And this is what happens to those Christ did not rapture.

However, the order is reversed for the other harvest which occurs roughly 1000 years later:

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Above we have the parable but lets skip down to the explanation of it by Christ:

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

They ask for him to explain.

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The end of the world is the actual end of the world. The "end of the world" is used for different times in scripture so we have to identify the events described to determine exactly what time frame is meant.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Two things happen at this time. The wicked are gathered together first and burned in a furnace of fire and the righteous "forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". This is an obvious description of judgment day when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire while the righteous are given eternal life. That happens long after the second coming which identifies these events as being at the end of this age, the great white throne judgement found in Rev 20:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This explains why description of the second coming show the righteous being gathered up first and the wicked second while this one parable says the wicked are gathered first and the righteous second. It's all a matter of time frame where the orders are reversed.

Rev 14 is not the rapture.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
Jesus is the firstfruits along with the patriarchs. The dead in Christ as well as we which are alive are the main harvest of the bride after those firstfruits. The groom comes for the bride. It is a grain harvest.

In rev 14 the 144k JEWS are the firstfruits. No dead are raised. And Jesus has a SICKLE. Plus the harvest is GRAPES. (ripe fruit) Jews.

The rapture is "Ruth"

Rev 14 is "Naomi "

Ahwatukee · Dec 20, 2020

ewq1938 said:

Hello ewq1938!

Here is the obvious problem with the catching away taking place at the second coming, i.e. when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. It would put the church through the entire wrath of God which will be taking place during that entire period via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and which we are appointed to suffer.

[quote[The tares are gathered to be burned at the GWTJ which is long after the second coming. This is the tares being gathered and burned:[/quote]

The wheat will be the great tribulation saints who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and during the period of God's wrath. The weeds will be those who will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark. The weeds are the 'one's taken.'

The above is the great white throne judgment, which takes place at the end of the thousand years, where the unrighteous dead throughout all history will be resurrected and will stand before God to give an account of all that they will have done. It is said of those great tribulation saints who take part in the first resurrection, that the second death (lake of fire) has no power over them, which infers that those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, the second death will power over them.

Since Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that we deserve, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, which again means that current believers cannot and will not be exposed to God's wath.

Ahwatukee · Dec 20, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

The wheat will be the great tribulation saints who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and during the period of God's wrath. The weeds will be those who will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark. The weeds are the 'one's taken.'

The above is the great white throne judgment, which takes place at the end of the thousand years, where the unrighteous dead throughout all history will be resurrected and will stand before God to give an account of all that they will have done. It is said of those great tribulation saints who take part in the first resurrection, that the second death (lake of fire) has no power over them, which infers that those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, the second death will power over them.

Since Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that we deserve, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, which again means that current believers cannot and will not be exposed to God's wath.[/QUOTE]

ewq1938 · Dec 20, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

God's wrath starts at the vials not before them. All wrath prior to the vials is the wrath of Satan.

ewq1938 · Dec 20, 2020

Absolutely said:

Part of it does depict the rapture using an analogy of a sickle and reaping.

Ahwatukee · Dec 20, 2020

ewq1938 said:

Scripture does not support the vials as only being the wrath of God. All you are doing is repeating a known erroneous teaching in order to support the belief that you have adopted. Consider the following scripture:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues--last, because with them God's wrath is completed."

According the scripture above, the seven bowls/vials are the seven [last plagues which complete God's wrath].

Therefore, since those seven vials as a unit are 'the last plagues' that would mean that there would have to be plagues of wrath that takes place before them.

Example: If I say "I was last in line to buy my concert tickets," that would infer that there were other people in line ahead of me. In the same way, since the vials are the last seven plagues which complete God's wrath, then this means that there would have to be other plagues of wrath that come before the vials, which would be the seals and trumpets.

This is another false teaching and I wish that people would stop believing in it and spreading it! There are No scriptures that identify the seals and trumpets as being Satan's wrath! Remember, it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals. And it is the four living beings who are call out each of those four horses. Likewise, it is the angels of God who will be sounding the trumpets. That's God's wrath, not Satan's!

The Day of the Lord has been prophesied by both the OT prophets and saints, as well as the apostles and believers today. It will be a seven year time period of God's wrath. Everything that takes place in that time period is the wrath of God. Satan may get angry during that time period, but it is not his time of wrath, but God's.

That last seven years will be the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24. During this time period, God will pour out his wrath upon a Christ rejecting world, the arrogant, the haughty, the proud, the sexually immoral and all who continue to willfully live according to the sinful nature, as well as those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. Everything that happens during that time is according to God Sovereign will and design. It will be God's long prophesied time of wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the plagues which the two witnesses will bring.

The fact is that, it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets and is followed by the vials. Therefore, He is responsible for all of the destruction and fatalities resulting from them. The King of kings and the Lord of lords is the One who tramples the winepress of the wrath of God almighty, which means that the Lord will be the One carrying out God's wrath.

In addition, I don't know how you can claim that the vials alone are God's wrath, when after the 6th seal is opened it states that God's wrath has come! That announcement includes the whole wrath of God, which includes the first five seals, as well as the trumpets and vial judgments which follow.

After the 7th vial has been poured out is when Jesus will return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

These things are not debatable, but are scriptural truths. Stop adopting the false teachings of men and believe what the word of God teaches.

ewq1938 · Dec 20, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

The 6th seal is the time frame of the 7th trump which is when the vials are poured. God's wrath does not come until the vials which are poured after the 7th trump has sounded.

Make your points without insults.

ewq1938 · Dec 20, 2020

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here is clearly states God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.

Ahwatukee · Dec 20, 2020

ewq1938 said:

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the same order that they appear in scripture in chronological order. The seals first, after the seventh seal will follow the first trumpet and then the rest. After the seventh trumpet, will follow the first vial and then the rest, in numerical order. What you are giving are just apologetics to circumvent the truth.

They're not insults, they're rebukes for false teachings.

ewq1938 · Dec 20, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Keep them to yourself. Your "rebukes" are unjustified and inappropriate.

If YESUAH says that the wicked is gather FIRST, WHY ARE some people looking for a rapture,??? Who does the say was taken in the flood.???

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