Lost Gospel of Evangelicalism

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presidente

Senior Member
#21
May 29, 2013
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#21
Nehemiah6 said:
Why don'y you go back to the Bible itself for a precedent? And let's have the true and full Gospel presented (as understood by you).
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I've got a thread, maybe two, that I started on this that you can look up. One of them focuses on I Corinthians 15:1-3.
 
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Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#22
#22
Th
Corban said:
According to the scriptures, a person's conversion needs three steps.
  1. The Holy Spirit must work inside them to convince them of "sin and judgment" (Jn.16:8)
  2. When the realization of their sins and impending judgment have worked, somebody has to tell of the way out (Rom.10:13-14)
  3. When they believe, they must also confess what is in their heart (Rom.10:10-13)
The Holy Spirit convicts, and gives faith. The way out is told by a Christian. The person themself must believe and confess. If just ONE of these three are missing, there is no conversion (this time). Blik's table-mate seems to me not to be convicted. Whether you told or not, I judge that you would not have made a difference. This does not excuse a Christian from preaching the gospel, but an obviously aggressive, dismissive and/or abusive person is unlikely to have been convicted, and less likely to confess.
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That is not what we see in the example of the Ethiopian.
 
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Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#23
#23
presidente said:
Has anyone else noticed this-- there are a number of pastors of churches and preachers on TV who do not preach about the cross, the atonement, or the resurrection of Christ, then tag a little schpeel on the end of their sermon that religion is a bad thing and we need a relationship, and declare people saved for repeating a prayer.

The prayer may involve people 'asking Jesus into your heart' without any explanation of Who Jesus is or what He did prior.

There is also this idea that 'receiving Christ' means to repeat a prayer after a preacher?

From what I have studied, the practice of confessing faith by means of a prayer either goes back to Billy Graham or wasn't widely practiced before his crusades. I have heard the assertion that if someone has not done this, he is not saved.

I recall decades ago, prayers based on Romans 10:9-10 where people would confess Jesus is Lord and their faith that God raised Him from the dead. Now a lot of these sinner's prayer rituals and the sermons that precede them often seem to be missing the Gospel message.

Sometimes the preacher tells the audience those that repeat the prayer that they are saved without telling them that Christ died for their sins or that He rose from the dead.

Has anyone else noticed this?
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That practice was not made common by Billy Graham, it was Charles Finney. That method is called revivalism. But it comes from the teaching of John Wesley. I gave you that info so you can do se research on your own. It's quite interesting how the gospel was reduced to a sales pitch, and eventually the sales pitch didn't contain any gospel.
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#24
May 29, 2013
9,163
1,792
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#24
Blackpowderduelist said:
That practice was not made common by Billy Graham, it was Charles Finney. That method is called revivalism. But it comes from the teaching of John Wesley. I gave you that info so you can do se research on your own. It's quite interesting how the gospel was reduced to a sales pitch, and eventually the sales pitch didn't contain any gospel.
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I think Finney sent people away to pr a y alone. So I have heard and/or read.
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#26
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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#26
Corban said:
According to the scriptures, a person's conversion needs three steps.
  1. The Holy Spirit must work inside them to convince them of "sin and judgment" (Jn.16:8)
  2. When the realization of their sins and impending judgment have worked, somebody has to tell of the way out (Rom.10:13-14)
  3. When they believe, they must also confess what is in their heart (Rom.10:10-13)
The Holy Spirit convicts, and gives faith. The way out is told by a Christian. The person themself must believe and confess. If just ONE of these three are missing, there is no conversion (this time). Blik's table-mate seems to me not to be convicted. Whether you told or not, I judge that you would not have made a difference. This does not excuse a Christian from preaching the gospel, but an obviously aggressive, dismissive and/or abusive person is unlikely to have been convicted, and less likely to confess.
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We only have a verse that says the Holy Spirit convicts of the ' sin ' ' because they believe not on Jesus ' . And not sure what you mean by " they must also confess what is in their heart " ? And " The Holy Spirit convicts, and gives faith. " ? Gives faith ?
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#27
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#27
Christians rely so much on ' the work of the Holy Spirt ' to the detrement of actually preaching the Gospel.
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#28
May 29, 2013
9,163
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#28
Blackpowderduelist said:
Read up on revivalism.
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Coming forward to the front may have been a similarity. Maybe the 'anxious seat.' This was likely a precursor to "the altar call.' I have not read about Finney having people repeat a prayer. Do you have a source for that?
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#29
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#29
presidente said:
Coming forward to the front may have been a similarity. Maybe the 'anxious seat.' This was likely a precursor to "the altar call.' I have not read about Finney having people repeat a prayer. Do you have a source for that?
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Finney believed that he could produce revival anywhere at anytime by coercing folks to come to Christ. Graham used mass evangelism that did not rely upon the Holy Spirit for conversions. Easy to say words that do not require any sacrifice of self.

Evangelism without the presence of the Holy Spirit does not produce Christians.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#30
Jun 11, 2020
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#30
presidente said:
Exodus 4:11
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

The LORD gives men the ability to speak. That does not make every word every man speaks into prophesying. Some people say some rather foolish things. We also speak words that aren't foolish, but aren't prophesying either. The donkey asked Balaam why he struck her. It does not say that the donkey spoke a 'thus saith the LORD' type message.
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That was not the issue. The issue was that I said the ass prophesied and you disagreed. I quoted 1st Corinthians 14:3 to show that any inspired speaking unto admonition, exhortation and/or comfort by the Holy Spirit, was defined as prophecy. You then disagreed and gave, as your reason, that prophecy was rather defined in 2nd Peter 1:21. That is, the Holy Spirit "moving" on a speaker. I countered with my question as to why you regard prophecy as being moved by the Holy Spirit, but don't think a dumb animal speaking in the middle of a situation where God is trying to make a statement is NOT God moving. The short of it is,
  1. If it was the Holy Spirit that gave revelation and utterance to the ass, it is, by your definition in 2nd Peter 1 - prophecy
  2. If was not the Holy Spirit, who then "moved" the ass, first to see danger, second to save his master's life, and third, to speak?
  3. If you are unable to show otherwise, the ass spoke as he was moved by the Holy Spirit and, by YOUR selection of 2nd Peter 1, the ass PROPHESIED
I rest my case, even if you disagree with 1st Corinthians 14:3. In this scripture I understand the ass to have "admonished" Balaam, and to have "comforted" him in that he avoided death - all by the power of the Holy Spirit - which is called "Prophesying" by the wording of that verse.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#31
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#31
throughfaith said:
Christians rely so much on ' the work of the Holy Spirt ' to the detrement of actually preaching the Gospel.
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Are we Christians because of the work of the Holy Spirit or because someone preaches the gospel?

Answer: Because of the work of the Holy Spirit.


Otherwise, you would find the preaching of the gospel to be nonsense.
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#32
Jun 11, 2020
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#32
Blackpowderduelist said:
Th
That is not what we see in the example of the Ethiopian.
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Your counter is too brief for me to answer. Maybe you could expound on this event while comparing it to my statements. Then I can see your view and answer. Thanks.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#33
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#33
Corban said:
Your counter is too brief for me to answer. Maybe you could expound on this event while comparing it to my statements. Then I can see your view and answer. Thanks.
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You were close in your description of conversion.

But you were missing the Main Ingredient. The Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:27 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Those prayers of salvation, or the sinners prayer, are not bad prayers. But like you pointed out you need to be convicted BY THE HOLY SPIRIT of your sin FIRST. Other hypocrites trying to convince you of your sin doesn't work.

This is where the Holy Spirit is bringing you; and THE required step of conversion.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#34
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#34
Grandpa said:
You were close in your description of conversion.

But you were missing the Main Ingredient. The Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:27 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Those prayers of salvation, or the sinners prayer, are not bad prayers. But like you pointed out you need to be convicted BY THE HOLY SPIRIT of your sin FIRST. Other hypocrites trying to convince you of your sin doesn't work.

This is where the Holy Spirit is bringing you; and THE required step of conversion.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
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What sin does the Holy Spirit convict of according to the verse?
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#35
Jun 11, 2020
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#35
throughfaith said:
We only have a verse that says the Holy Spirit convicts of the ' sin ' ' because they believe not on Jesus ' . And not sure what you mean by " they must also confess what is in their heart " ? And " The Holy Spirit convicts, and gives faith. " ? Gives faith ?
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John 16:7-8 says that when the Comforter comes - the Spirit of truth - He will, "... reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." The next verse, verse 9 does not change the plain meaning of verse 8. It is the Holy Spirit which "reproves" the world of sin. Verse 9 gives the reason why the sin is there to be reproved. It is because not having believed in Jesus their sin remains.

When a man is converted, two things must be accomplished. (i) he must believe with his heart that Jesus is Who He claims to be, and (ii) the man must confess this out loud. A prime example of this is the Pharisees in Matthew 21. They knew who Jesus was - their King and Heir of the Vineyard Israel. But they did not admit it. The result? Planning to murder Him. A man must BOTH believe and confess out loud what is in his heart by faith.

In Ephesians 2:8 the grammar, in English and Greek, follows a rule. The last mentioned noun is modified by the pronoun. It reads;

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

The pronoun "that" modifies "faith", not "grace". The verse could have been formulated in two ways;
  1. "For by faith are ye saved through grace; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Here, the "grace" was a GIFT
  2. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Here, the "faith" was a GIFT
This is confirmed by Hebrews 12:2:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#36
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#36
Grandpa said:
Are we Christians because of the work of the Holy Spirit or because someone preaches the gospel?

Answer: Because of the work of the Holy Spirit.


Otherwise, you would find the preaching of the gospel to be nonsense.
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No preaching the Gospel no salvation.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#37
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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113
#37
Corban said:
John 16:7-8 says that when the Comforter comes - the Spirit of truth - He will, "... reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." The next verse, verse 9 does not change the plain meaning of verse 8. It is the Holy Spirit which "reproves" the world of sin. Verse 9 gives the reason why the sin is there to be reproved. It is because not having believed in Jesus their sin remains.

When a man is converted, two things must be accomplished. (i) he must believe with his heart that Jesus is Who He claims to be, and (ii) the man must confess this out loud. A prime example of this is the Pharisees in Matthew 21. They knew who Jesus was - their King and Heir of the Vineyard Israel. But they did not admit it. The result? Planning to murder Him. A man must BOTH believe and confess out loud what is in his heart by faith.

In Ephesians 2:8 the grammar, in English and Greek, follows a rule. The last mentioned noun is modified by the pronoun. It reads;

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

The pronoun "that" modifies "faith", not "grace". The verse could have been formulated in two ways;
  1. "For by faith are ye saved through grace; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Here, the "grace" was a GIFT
  2. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Here, the "faith" was a GIFT
This is confirmed by Hebrews 12:2:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Click to expand...
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
This is what it says . Just ' because they believe not on me;'
Thats it .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#38
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#38
Corban said:
John 16:7-8 says that when the Comforter comes - the Spirit of truth - He will, "... reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." The next verse, verse 9 does not change the plain meaning of verse 8. It is the Holy Spirit which "reproves" the world of sin. Verse 9 gives the reason why the sin is there to be reproved. It is because not having believed in Jesus their sin remains.

When a man is converted, two things must be accomplished. (i) he must believe with his heart that Jesus is Who He claims to be, and (ii) the man must confess this out loud. A prime example of this is the Pharisees in Matthew 21. They knew who Jesus was - their King and Heir of the Vineyard Israel. But they did not admit it. The result? Planning to murder Him. A man must BOTH believe and confess out loud what is in his heart by faith.

In Ephesians 2:8 the grammar, in English and Greek, follows a rule. The last mentioned noun is modified by the pronoun. It reads;

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

The pronoun "that" modifies "faith", not "grace". The verse could have been formulated in two ways;
  1. "For by faith are ye saved through grace; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Here, the "grace" was a GIFT
  2. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Here, the "faith" was a GIFT
This is confirmed by Hebrews 12:2:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Click to expand...
You add to what is written . "It is because not having believed in Jesus their sin remains. " he has to say this out loud '?
you add ??
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#39
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#39
Corban said:
John 16:7-8 says that when the Comforter comes - the Spirit of truth - He will, "... reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." The next verse, verse 9 does not change the plain meaning of verse 8. It is the Holy Spirit which "reproves" the world of sin. Verse 9 gives the reason why the sin is there to be reproved. It is because not having believed in Jesus their sin remains.

When a man is converted, two things must be accomplished. (i) he must believe with his heart that Jesus is Who He claims to be, and (ii) the man must confess this out loud. A prime example of this is the Pharisees in Matthew 21. They knew who Jesus was - their King and Heir of the Vineyard Israel. But they did not admit it. The result? Planning to murder Him. A man must BOTH believe and confess out loud what is in his heart by faith.

In Ephesians 2:8 the grammar, in English and Greek, follows a rule. The last mentioned noun is modified by the pronoun. It reads;

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

The pronoun "that" modifies "faith", not "grace". The verse could have been formulated in two ways;
  1. "For by faith are ye saved through grace; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Here, the "grace" was a GIFT
  2. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". Here, the "faith" was a GIFT
This is confirmed by Hebrews 12:2:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Click to expand...
The' Author of faith' does not necessarily what your saying of course. .
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#40
Jun 11, 2020
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#40
throughfaith said:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
This is what it says . Just ' because they believe not on me;'
Thats it .
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That what? That is probably the shortest exposition I've seen. If "that's it", what say you of 1st Corinthians 14:24-25?

24 "But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."
 
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