Shall we give, or shall we not give?

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UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
907
141
43
#1
Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not they asked

Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

Of course, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then if you hold those things written to be true, so how did Jesus know that they were ducks.

Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

Simple, because they walked like ducks and they quacked by ducks, plus he saw they had nothing in their hand, seeing it is written in Proverbs 23:23, 'buy the truth and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.'

And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They answered and said, Caesar's.
Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's;


Of course, a Roman would have answered, Divi filius's. hence the rendering unto God the things that are God's. However,

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CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,058
4,344
113
#2
Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not they asked

Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

Of course, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then if you hold those things written to be true, so how did Jesus know that they were ducks.

Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

Simple, because they walked like ducks and they quacked by ducks, plus he saw they had nothing in their hand, seeing it is written in Proverbs 23:23, 'buy the truth and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.'

And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They answered and said, Caesar's.
Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's;


Of course, a Roman would have answered, Divi filius's. hence the rendering unto God the things that are God's. However,

there are many application to this statement BY the Lord Render to Ceaser what is Ceaser and to God what is HIS.

I like this application you should fear God more to give to him over the fear you have of not giving to Caesar.
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#3
The most damning was that our Lord Jesus had no money on Him. It was the Pharisees who sought to draw Him into a political clinch that had Caesar's superscription in their pockets. They were harborers of the means of Roman subjugation of Israel. They also brought to light a curse of the Law upon them - serving foreign kings. And then to top it all, our Lord Jesus agrees with this foreign government and so slams home the accustaion that Israel were Law breakers. I think the Pharisees proverbially shot themselves in the foot.
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#4
I have no idea what your point is. Can you please clarify?
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#5
I have no idea what your point is. Can you please clarify?
With Abraham and his seed Jehovah made a Covenant, which is called throughout scripture "the Promises". In it, God Promises, among other things, to give Canaan, with set boundaries, as an "everlasting possession". Another part of the Promises was that Israel would "possess the gates of his enemies", which means that Israel would rule over their enemies. Israel's part of the deal was the circumcision of all male seed. The situation when our Lord Jesus arrived in Israel was just the opposite. From around 730 BC the ten northern Tribes had been defeated, subjugated and carried off to Assyria. From around 600 BC the two remaining southern Tribes had been defeated and carried off to Babylon. Of these, only about 2.5% returned to build the Second Temple and Jerusalem. Israel at large had NOT received the Promises. The suffered under Babylonian rule, then under Medo-Persia, under Greece and now they were ruled and administered by Rome.

This morbid situation was due to another Covenant made with Jehovah - that of Law at Sinai. It demanded certain things to honor God, man and the Land, but Israel had disregarded this Law and the penalties of this Contract had driven Israel out of their Land and made those who returned, subjects of foreign kings. Although the Babylonian captivity had effectively dealt with Israel's main problem - idolatry, the offspring of those that returned from Babylon kept the Law in lip-service and not with their hearts and minds. The Pharisees "sat in Moses' Seat" and ruled the religious side of Israel with great words and empty deeds. They represented Israel, but were slaves of Rome. They represented the Law, but were despisers of the Law. They looked for their Messiah. But they wanted a Messiah who would deal with Rome, and not their sins.

As our Lord Jesus' fame spread the Pharisees felt that their grip on the little that was left of Israel, was slipping. They had no answer for this Jesus. So they used the one thing that they were guilty off to stir up the authorities and the people against Jesus - relations with Rome. They themselves were minions of Rome, but they tried to trap Jesus with the very Rome they were slaves of. If our Lord Jesus had said, "NO! Don't subject yourselves to Rome by taxation! You are free men", the Pharisees would have hastened to Pilate and reported a political and financial uprising by Jesus, the most prominent citizen of Israel. If Jesus had said, "Yes, you must pay taxes to Rome", the Pharisees would have hastened to the people and said that Jesus was an emissary of Rome and so stirred up Israel to stone Jesus.

Jesus' answer obliterated their position. Who had money with Caesars inscription??? Not Jesus! He did not partake of Rome. BUT THE PHARISEES HAD CAESAR'S MEANS AND CAESAR'S INSCRIPTION IN THEIR POCKETS! Who now was dependent on Rome? Who now traded with Rome's values? Who now was dependent on Rome to buy food? THE PHARISEES!!! And further ... Why were the Pharisees (and Israel) subject to Caesar??? BECAUSE GOD JUDGED THEM LAW-BREAKERS!!! Leviticus 26:15-17 taught that ...

15 "And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it
(TAXATION)
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you
(CAESAR); and ye shall flee when none pursueth you."

The Pharisees claimed rule over Israel. They claimed to be upholders of the Law. they forced the letter of the Law on Israelies while making traditions themselves which made the Law of none effect FOR THEM. They claimed to be for a FREE ISRAEL, but has Caesar's superscription in their pockets! They claimed that they were for Israel but were for Caesar's trading system. Our Lord Jesus took their own cunning and exposed them for what they were - illegal religious rulers who forced a Law onto the common man while they broke it and were in bed with Caesar!
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#6
With Abraham and his seed Jehovah made a Covenant, which is called throughout scripture "the Promises". In it, God Promises, among other things, to give Canaan, with set boundaries, as an "everlasting possession". Another part of the Promises was that Israel would "possess the gates of his enemies", which means that Israel would rule over their enemies. Israel's part of the deal was the circumcision of all male seed. The situation when our Lord Jesus arrived in Israel was just the opposite. From around 730 BC the ten northern Tribes had been defeated, subjugated and carried off to Assyria. From around 600 BC the two remaining southern Tribes had been defeated and carried off to Babylon. Of these, only about 2.5% returned to build the Second Temple and Jerusalem. Israel at large had NOT received the Promises. The suffered under Babylonian rule, then under Medo-Persia, under Greece and now they were ruled and administered by Rome.

This morbid situation was due to another Covenant made with Jehovah - that of Law at Sinai. It demanded certain things to honor God, man and the Land, but Israel had disregarded this Law and the penalties of this Contract had driven Israel out of their Land and made those who returned, subjects of foreign kings. Although the Babylonian captivity had effectively dealt with Israel's main problem - idolatry, the offspring of those that returned from Babylon kept the Law in lip-service and not with their hearts and minds. The Pharisees "sat in Moses' Seat" and ruled the religious side of Israel with great words and empty deeds. They represented Israel, but were slaves of Rome. They represented the Law, but were despisers of the Law. They looked for their Messiah. But they wanted a Messiah who would deal with Rome, and not their sins.

As our Lord Jesus' fame spread the Pharisees felt that their grip on the little that was left of Israel, was slipping. They had no answer for this Jesus. So they used the one thing that they were guilty off to stir up the authorities and the people against Jesus - relations with Rome. They themselves were minions of Rome, but they tried to trap Jesus with the very Rome they were slaves of. If our Lord Jesus had said, "NO! Don't subject yourselves to Rome by taxation! You are free men", the Pharisees would have hastened to Pilate and reported a political and financial uprising by Jesus, the most prominent citizen of Israel. If Jesus had said, "Yes, you must pay taxes to Rome", the Pharisees would have hastened to the people and said that Jesus was an emissary of Rome and so stirred up Israel to stone Jesus.

Jesus' answer obliterated their position. Who had money with Caesars inscription??? Not Jesus! He did not partake of Rome. BUT THE PHARISEES HAD CAESAR'S MEANS AND CAESAR'S INSCRIPTION IN THEIR POCKETS! Who now was dependent on Rome? Who now traded with Rome's values? Who now was dependent on Rome to buy food? THE PHARISEES!!! And further ... Why were the Pharisees (and Israel) subject to Caesar??? BECAUSE GOD JUDGED THEM LAW-BREAKERS!!! Leviticus 26:15-17 taught that ...

15 "And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it
(TAXATION)
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you (CAESAR); and ye shall flee when none pursueth you."

The Pharisees claimed rule over Israel. They claimed to be upholders of the Law. they forced the letter of the Law on Israelies while making traditions themselves which made the Law of none effect FOR THEM. They claimed to be for a FREE ISRAEL, but has Caesar's superscription in their pockets! They claimed that they were for Israel but were for Caesar's trading system. Our Lord Jesus took their own cunning and exposed them for what they were - illegal religious rulers who forced a Law onto the common man while they broke it and were in bed with Caesar!
Thanks for clarifying. I was totally unclear from what the op had written.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
907
141
43
#7
there are many application to this statement BY the Lord Render to Ceaser what is Ceaser
True, yet following his assassination in 44 BC, Julius Ceasar was diefiied by the Roman Republic as a God in 42 BC.

and to God what is HIS.
I am sure you know, but some might not be aware who the person elected as the Princeps civitatis in of the Roman Empire that emerged from the Republic government that fell with the Second Triumvirate in 33 BC, they definitely be surprised.

I like this application you should fear God more to give to him over the fear you have of not giving to Caesar.
That was exactly the point, they claim to worship the God of truth, but they placed no value in the word of God. So they come up to him and ask him to tell what the truth is, instruct us as Mark 12:15 reads,

Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it. Mark 12:15

Whether you are seeking or whether it comes to you, when you hear God's word that reveals a truth you didn't know but the spirit in you bears witness to its being true, you better reap because he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal.

While Proverbs 23:23 can be read as "receive the truth ..." But he knew ther hypocrisy by what they had in the hand, which he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony, but said nothing yet some don't get it. But some do get and get more in their gettings ".

I have no idea what your point is. Can you please clarify?
Neither did they.

See, when he asked "Whose is this image and superscription?" in Matt 22:20 and they said unto him, Caesar's. However, he knew it wasn't Ceasar's because in 27 BC the Roman Senate of the defunct Republic hade chosen the Pharoah to rule the new Roman Empire. They knew him by the title was Imperator Caesar divi filius Augustus, so whether or not you render to Caesar or render to Pharoah, they are going get their tribute money from you, ask your Uncle Sam.

So the point is the question, the answer. You believe the answer was Ceasar then who is going to convince you otherwise. You couldn't have said Pharaoh cause you didn't even know that was a possibility till you look it up, but that still isn't the answer to the question to whose image and words are on the coin. But now you've heard the question, when you are reading the scriptures you will hear the answer. Then it will all make cents regarding receiving the one sent.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#8
Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not they asked
Luke
20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
20:23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
20:24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's.
20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

I have always felt that this was pretty straightforward. If you have it in your hand to do so, pay taxes to the powers that be. Jesus went out of His way to find a money-fish for them (this was before the time of golden gooses and money trees.) God is different. It is our lives and hearts that He desires. God already owned all the gold long before it was dug from the hills, long before they stamped some nutso's face on it.