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T
Good point.
Except, respectfully, there is no "secret" Rapture. I tried to prove it when I believed what others taught, but ends up there is only one resurrection of the dead in Christ (the prerequisite for the living being caught up) before the Millennium - at His coming, then the rest at the end of the 1,000 years.
Thanks for your agreement, however, you should go back to a belief in the Rapture, don't let others arguments lead you away from a Biblical truth. There will be rapture, as pointed too by the taking up of Enoch (a gentile), in the Old Testament, just before the coming of the flood judgement. This foreshadowed the New Testament promise of Jesus Christ himself, given to the church:
Rev_3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. By way of understanding, the Great Tribulation. Just as Noah and the eight rode safely above the judgement, locked in the ark of safety, so to will the church, the Bride of Christ, be safely in the heavens.
Return to your first belief. While I know this is off topic, don't let this great blessing fade from your life. Even though the word rapture does not appear in Scripture, (The same could be said for the triunity of God.), it is never the less true. There are many other Scriptures and many other points that prove the rapture. Those who oppose the rapture concept, usually are ignorant of Eternity and have a poor understanding of what happens when one dies or falls asleep. If one understands these things properly, then the idea of a rapture will not seem so out of place.
Rev_3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. By way of understanding, the Great Tribulation. Just as Noah and the eight rode safely above the judgement, locked in the ark of safety, so to will the church, the Bride of Christ, be safely in the heavens.
Return to your first belief. While I know this is off topic, don't let this great blessing fade from your life. Even though the word rapture does not appear in Scripture, (The same could be said for the triunity of God.), it is never the less true. There are many other Scriptures and many other points that prove the rapture. Those who oppose the rapture concept, usually are ignorant of Eternity and have a poor understanding of what happens when one dies or falls asleep. If one understands these things properly, then the idea of a rapture will not seem so out of place.
B
I'm not so sure that any of the appearances of "the Angel or the Lord" are Christophanies. The word angel would kind of indicate the contrary.
Also Jesus kind of squashes the idea of Jesus appearing to people today (not that they couldn't have a vision or something)
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:23-27 ESV
Also Jesus kind of squashes the idea of Jesus appearing to people today (not that they couldn't have a vision or something)
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:23-27 ESV
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One should only believe the Scriptures and never someone's witness, unless that witness can stand the test of Scripture. These kind of stories fall under the heading of these warnings.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Th 2:9-12 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God is sending them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.
This time is now, people who call themselves Christians but 1.) Do not endure sound Doctrine, 2.) Gather around teachers who are only trying to please those whom have worldly concerns, 3.) Will not hear the Truth of God, 4.) Believe in the fables of others.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Th 2:9-12 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God is sending them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.
This time is now, people who call themselves Christians but 1.) Do not endure sound Doctrine, 2.) Gather around teachers who are only trying to please those whom have worldly concerns, 3.) Will not hear the Truth of God, 4.) Believe in the fables of others.
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Because you haven't met it, you can't guess or imagine. I didn't say that what you said is not in line with the Bible. I just told you that after my experience.
sometimes my personal experience, some seen on the Internet,
There were some pictures of interesting spiritual thing found in the alien forum，
sometimes my personal experience, some seen on the Internet,
There were some pictures of interesting spiritual thing found in the alien forum，
How to describe it to you? Those alien enthusiasts, they see all the incredible things attributed to aliens，once I saw the pictures they took on Internet by accident. Very interesting "souls" were mapped on the wall, looking like aliens and spiritual things,I can't imagine those alien enthusiasts would make up such an alien event to make a fake picture.
P
O i quite agree with everything you posted here. Then again paul talks about entertaining of angles, the testing of the spirits, joel tells us in the last days the pouring out of the holy spirit will also bring dreams and visions to some.
Should we disregarded johns testamony from patamos where more than 2/3rds of it is a vision?
God says he never operates this way without a witness. Jesus testifies to this truth.
No deceiving spirit would ever point to Christ crucified.
There is nothing new but everything is old under the sun. If its not found in scripture its not of God. That doesnt mean God will not send angles, dreams, or the appearance of Christ to some will not take place.
Jesus is alive and well, he is not a spirit that dwells among the dead but the living. He has not left or foresaken us.
How he chooses to communicate is up to him we are instructed on how to discern and receive.
Should we disregarded johns testamony from patamos where more than 2/3rds of it is a vision?
God says he never operates this way without a witness. Jesus testifies to this truth.
No deceiving spirit would ever point to Christ crucified.
There is nothing new but everything is old under the sun. If its not found in scripture its not of God. That doesnt mean God will not send angles, dreams, or the appearance of Christ to some will not take place.
Jesus is alive and well, he is not a spirit that dwells among the dead but the living. He has not left or foresaken us.
How he chooses to communicate is up to him we are instructed on how to discern and receive.
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... I had no mental problems
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Seeing that we are all born enemies of God, under such a condition, I think mental problems are largely inescapable
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In fact, what I want to express is not to limit the appearance of Jesus to a certain extent,He have appeared, maybe you don't know, maybe you don't approve.And don't limit yourself to Biblical knowledge,god shows himself as fire,Jesus shows himself as a person,or Jesus shows himself whatever.You just need to know that God is almighty, beyond the imagination of ordinary people.this is what I really meaning.
Maybe the appearance of Jesus Christ exists in your spiritual touch, but you are not aware of it.
Maybe the appearance of Jesus Christ exists in your spiritual touch, but you are not aware of it.
T
Your welcome! No word of God is ever off topic. Oh, the existence and timing of the Rapture is very important to me.
I believed the pre-Trib Rapture for 40 years, as taught, starting with Hal Lindsey's book The Late Great Planet Earth, and I was a member of his church. I assumed that Revelation was confusing so I just never read about end times prophecy at all, hearing only the teaching of it everywhere over the years. I never even knew there were alternative interpretations.
When I retired this year, and was thrown into a lockdown, I received a challenge to prove pre-trib and enthusiastically pursued. I wanted only the Lord and The Holy Spirit to lead me, so I had to constantly redirect my mind from reading anything I'd been told into the verses (really difficult). Reading pre-trib verses IN CONTEXT (much like Rev 3:10), is when I realized they had been taken out of context to support a pre-Trib view. Soon, it became crystal clear, there is one Second Coming (as The Master told us) and one resurrection of the dead in Christ pre-millennial ("the rest" after the 1,000 years) and this coming includes the Rapture of the living, after the dead. I see no evidence the dead in Christ rise 7 years before His coming, and then a second resurrection of the dead 7 years later at His Second Coming. I find that Jesus, Paul and John told us exactly what will happen and we will know when the end comes and won't be caught off guard as unbelievers will be:
1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
God showed me the end times and the Post-Trib, Pre Wrath Rapture, which goes:
1) The Tribulation
God gives Satan the power to kill, starve, make war, etc. ( Rev 6:2, Rev 6:4, Rev 6:8, Rev 13:7, just like He did in Job 1:12 Job 2:6)
2) Antichrist is revealed at the Abomination of Desolation mid-Trib:2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2) Jesus 2nd Coming
(cut short a little)
3) Resurrection of the dead in Christ 4) Rapture of the living
5) The Wrath of God begins
6) The Battle of Armaggedon
Since all viewpoints agree the dead in Christ must proceed the living in the Rapture, and I take Jesus at His Word that the resurrection of the dead is on "the last day" at His Second Coming, I had to determine when the dead in Christ are resurrected. This harvest parable was the best help:
The slaves asked the landowner if he wanted them to pull out the tares that sprouted up in the field. He answered:
- Mat 13:29 ...'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
- 30 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."' [This is the Resurrection/Rapture]
- 37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
- 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
- 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
- 40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
- 43" Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Here is the Harvest in Revelation, taking place exactly as Jesus prophesied. It is when Jesus returns (during the 6th Seal). Notice the transition from the Tribulation into God's Wrath.
- The Second Coming of Jesus in the clouds:
Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.
- The Resurrection and the Rapture:
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe."
Rev 14:16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.
- God's Wrath begins (now that the Saints are off the earth):
Rev 14:18 Then another angel...[said], "Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe."
Rev 14:19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.
Your verse is a great one to confirm the Tribulation is just that, and that God's Wrath the Saints are kept from, does not come until almost the end of 7 years:
- Rev 3:10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
The word "hour" - in comparison to the 7 year Tribulation, God's Wrath will last one hour. If the 7 years (7 days in Daniel's prophecy) were all God's Wrath, Jesus would have kept them from "one week" of testing, not one hour.
"...those who dwell on the earth" are the unrighteous ones left AFTER the Rapture. The Tribulation Saints are seen here AFTER the mid-Tribulation, and AFTER the 5th Seal is opened, and ask Jesus when is He going to take vengeance on the earth dwellers - God's Wrath has not started yet, the Tribulation is still going on.
Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
I was always told that Jesus loves His Bride and He would never allow us to be beaten up during the Tribulation. But the following from Revelation means that is a false teaching. Below, Jesus asks the Saints in Smyrna to suffer their arrest, tribulation and go faithfully to their deaths (which they did). If one of the churches in Revelation is being applied to the church today, then all of them must be:Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:
9 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Thank you for responding!!!!
Unfortunately, I can not agree with your assertions. You are mixing up promises given to the Jews that have no part in the church. This example you gave:
The slaves asked the landowner if he wanted them to pull out the tares that sprouted up in the field. He answered:
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
Mat 13:42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
As we then can clearly see, this gathering is out of His Kingdom, a casting out of the unrighteous. The righteous, who are alive, remain within the Kingdom.
This has a parallel in the following verses teachings:
Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The word "hour" in Rev. 3:10, is not a physical hour. Here it is used to represent the seven years of the Tribulation. Just as "one week" of Daniel's prophecy is used to represent seven years, in his prophecy. This is a rather common practice throughout Scripture. We know that Rev. 3:10 is talking about the Tribulation days because our Lord said: "...that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev. 3:10b).
While as individual believers we may experience trials and even imprisonment for the cause of Christ and some are even still martyred. this does not apply to the church as an entity. The church is not imprisoned nor can you martyr the church. Only individual members. When Christ promised to keep the church from the hour of trial, He was speaking of all members from all local assemblies around the world, that belong to Him. Sometimes prophetical statements belong to the local assemblies and sometimes they are directed to the "Universal" aspect of the church. We must make these distinctions in order to not cross up Biblical promises and make a mess of our interpretations.
The slaves asked the landowner if he wanted them to pull out the tares that sprouted up in the field. He answered:
- Mat 13:29 ...'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
- 30 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."' [This is the Resurrection/Rapture]
- 37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
- 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
- 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
- 40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
Mat 13:42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
As we then can clearly see, this gathering is out of His Kingdom, a casting out of the unrighteous. The righteous, who are alive, remain within the Kingdom.
This has a parallel in the following verses teachings:
Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The word "hour" in Rev. 3:10, is not a physical hour. Here it is used to represent the seven years of the Tribulation. Just as "one week" of Daniel's prophecy is used to represent seven years, in his prophecy. This is a rather common practice throughout Scripture. We know that Rev. 3:10 is talking about the Tribulation days because our Lord said: "...that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev. 3:10b).
While as individual believers we may experience trials and even imprisonment for the cause of Christ and some are even still martyred. this does not apply to the church as an entity. The church is not imprisoned nor can you martyr the church. Only individual members. When Christ promised to keep the church from the hour of trial, He was speaking of all members from all local assemblies around the world, that belong to Him. Sometimes prophetical statements belong to the local assemblies and sometimes they are directed to the "Universal" aspect of the church. We must make these distinctions in order to not cross up Biblical promises and make a mess of our interpretations.