The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[Absolutely]

Test fit your model.

Postrib rapture adherent
"I tell you Jesus comes back with his bride on white horses and raptures his bride and the dead in christ while coming on white horses"

Huh?
What about ;
asts 1
Rev 14
Rev 19
1 thes 4
Mat 25
Mat 24
The escape verses?

Just ignore them?

Ok. Carry on.
Show me how you incorporate the missing verses.

 

[Absolutely]

When you have made up your mind as you say, there is no place for discussion and we must agree to disagree and let God be the judge. I too will not be persuaded being fully convinced of my belief after many years of study and debate. May the Lord bless you.

Most all postrib rapture adherents omit the rapture verses.

That is their foundation.

Omit...reframe...deflect...repeat

 

[Runningman]

Most all postrib rapture adherents omit the rapture verses.

That is their foundation.

Omit...reframe...deflect...repeat

Omit rapture verses? The same rapture verses you quote for pre-trib are the same exact ones I quote for post-trib. The key difference pre-tribbers ignore is the rapture occurs when Christ returns. Pre-tribbers say the rapture occurs in a gathering entirely separate from the return of Christ, but the verses you reference for those are always framed within context of Christ's second and only return after the great tribulation.

In a different thread you fabricated a third return of Christ in order to make the doctrine jive, but there is not a third return of Christ. You may notice that when Christ returns it's when the elect are gathered/caught up, the dead resurrected, the earth/heavens destroyed, the sheep/goats judged, a new earth/heavens created. This is all post-trib.

 

[Runningman]

When you have made up your mind as you say, there is no place for discussion and we must agree to disagree and let God be the judge. I too will not be persuaded being fully convinced of my belief after many years of study and debate. May the Lord bless you.

Yes, agreed. I'm comfortable if someone just doesn't want to believe what they are shown. We must follow our convictions after all. All we can do is try to show people the truth as we understand it motivated by love. I firmly believe it is not a matter of salvation to believe one way or another about the rapture, but it is nevertheless very important to parse out.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If I remember correctly (if I am wrong disregard this) you seemed to have negated virgin as being the bride)
If true that is error as well.

Not what I've said ^ .


I've said:

--the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" (of whom "the MARRIAGE" itself pertains [UP IN Heaven]),

...IS NOT...

--the "10 [or even 5] VirginS [/BridesmaidS] [PLURAL]" (to whom "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" [i.e. the EARTHLY MK age] pertains--He is NOT coming to "MARRY" PLURAL VirginS. )





["the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" is ALSO NOT "the guestS [PLURAL]" nor the "servantS [PLURAL]" of that particular time period (leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19--i.e. re: "servants" in/of the Trib yrs); ex. "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and its parallel passage in Matt24), where "RETURN FROM the wedding" means He is an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom," at that point... and that the ppl He's referring to in this passage are present on the earth upon His RETURN there (never having "lifted off the earth" since "Rapture/harpazo/SNATCH" does not pertain to them, but pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]--i.e. the SINGULAR "A CHASTE VIRGIN" of 2Cor11:2 )]

 

[Absolutely]

Not what I've said ^ .


I've said:

--the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" (of whom "the MARRIAGE" itself pertains [UP IN Heaven]),

...IS NOT...

--the "10 [or even 5] VirginS [/BridesmaidS] [PLURAL]" (to whom "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" [i.e. the EARTHLY MK age] pertains--He is NOT coming to "MARRY" PLURAL VirginS. )





["the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" is ALSO NOT "the guestS [PLURAL]" nor the "servantS [PLURAL]" of that particular time period (leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19--i.e. re: "servants" in/of the Trib yrs); ex. "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and its parallel passage in Matt24), where "RETURN FROM the wedding" means He is an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom," at that point... and that the ppl He's referring to in this passage are present on the earth upon His RETURN there (never having "lifted off the earth" since "Rapture/harpazo/SNATCH" does not pertain to them, but pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]--i.e. the SINGULAR "A CHASTE VIRGIN" of 2Cor11:2 )]

under your logic, christians are guests?

Guests have ;
oil (holy Spirit)
Light
lamps
waiting for Jesus
Go with the groom(Jesus)
Are wise for oil provision in their life

But are NOT the bride ?????

 

[Absolutely]

He is NOT coming to "MARRY" PLURAL VirginS. )

OK which christian (singular) is he marrying ....Paul?

Your clue would be the many wives of David (BTW...the fore runner of Jesus)

 

[Absolutely]

Omit rapture verses? The same rapture verses you quote for pre-trib are the same exact ones I quote for post-trib. The key difference pre-tribbers ignore is the rapture occurs when Christ returns. Pre-tribbers say the rapture occurs in a gathering entirely separate from the return of Christ, but the verses you reference for those are always framed within context of Christ's second and only return after the great tribulation.

In a different thread you fabricated a third return of Christ in order to make the doctrine jive, but there is not a third return of Christ. You may notice that when Christ returns it's when the elect are gathered/caught up, the dead resurrected, the earth/heavens destroyed, the sheep/goats judged, a new earth/heavens created. This is all post-trib.

I have yet to see you unpack rev 14
Or acts 1
or the "before" of the Noah dynamic.
not to mention how Jesus framed our destination in heaven in the last supper

If i am wrong point me to your post (or simply a site where ANY POSTRIB RAPTURE BELIEVER addresses those and the other items.

 

[Absolutely]

Omit rapture verses? The same rapture verses you quote for pre-trib are the same exact ones I quote for post-trib. The key difference pre-tribbers ignore is the rapture occurs when Christ returns. Pre-tribbers say the rapture occurs in a gathering entirely separate from the return of Christ, but the verses you reference for those are always framed within context of Christ's second and only return after the great tribulation.

In a different thread you fabricated a third return of Christ in order to make the doctrine jive, but there is not a third return of Christ. You may notice that when Christ returns it's when the elect are gathered/caught up, the dead resurrected, the earth/heavens destroyed, the sheep/goats judged, a new earth/heavens created. This is all post-trib.

Then you must KNOW how to unpack rev 14????

all i have seen from you is broad brushing and dodging specific dynamics

when called on it, you repeat the avoidance of debate.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

under your logic, christians are guests?

I'll not complain if you call them "Christians" (they ARE indeed "saints," so this definitely applies!! = ) ... However, they are not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"--to whom the "Rapture" SOLELY pertains!!] ).


Just because they are called "guests" does NOT mean they are UNsaved. NO UNSAVED persons will ENTER the MK age (tho the people later BORN to them [children, grandchildren, and so on] are not "BORN *automatically* RIGHTEOUS" ... so it is THESE ONLY [the ones BORN in the MK age] who will be the only ones susceptible to "death" in the MK age [where "death" will be much more RARE, reserved only for the rebellious]);
JUST LIKE "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" (who is ALSO NOT "the Bride/Wife" either) is ALSO a "saved" person... he's just not "the Bride/Wife" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"], see

[It is a matter of "WHEN" each comes to faith--whether back in OT times, or "in this present age," or in the future Trib yrs, or... (ALL are indeed "saints," but not all are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])--ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]" ]


"BLESSED" are those "having been INVITED to the wedding SUPPER/FEAST of the Lamb" corresponds with about 8 other "BLESSED" passages referring to those still-living persons on the earth (at His RETURN there, Rev19) who ENTER the MK age (as SAVED persons)

 

[Absolutely]

Test fit your model.

Postrib rapture adherent
"I tell you Jesus comes back with his bride on white horses and raptures his bride and the dead in christ while coming on white horses"

Huh?
What about ;
asts 1
Rev 14
Rev 19
1 thes 4
Mat 25
Mat 24
The escape verses?

Just ignore them?

Ok. Carry on.
Show me how you incorporate the missing verses.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^there ya go^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

will await your unpacking.

or if you still are not up to it point me to postrib that can please.

 

[Absolutely]

I'll not complain if you call them "Christians" (they ARE indeed "saints," so this definitely applies!! = ) ... However, they are not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"] ).


Just because they are called "guests" does NOT mean they are UNsaved. NO UNSAVED persons will ENTER the MK age (tho the people later BORN to them [children, grandchildren and so on] are not "BORN *automatically* RIGHTEOUS" ... so it is THESE ONLY [the ones BORN in the MK age] who will be susceptible to "death" in the MK age [where "death" will be much more RARE, reserved only for the rebellious]);
JUST LIKE "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" (who is ALSO NOT "the Bride/Wife" either) is ALSO a "saved" person... he's just not "the Bride/Wife" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"], see

[It is a matter of "WHEN" each comes to faith--whether back in OT times, or "in this present age," or in the future Trib yrs, or... (ALL are indeed "saints," but not all are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])--ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]" ]

Makes no sense

you painted yourself in a corner

Specifically virgins with oil, lamps, light and waiting for Jesus and are gathered by Jesus are Guests and not born again saints, christians believers or however the latest label is applied?????

ONLY one person is the bride under your logic?????

huh?????

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, agreed. I'm comfortable if someone just doesn't want to believe what they are shown. We must follow our convictions after all. All we can do is try to show people the truth as we understand it motivated by love. I firmly believe it is not a matter of salvation to believe one way or another about the rapture, but it is nevertheless very important to parse out.

Convictions?

no sir

any "conviction" can be in error if it is not proven or authenticated by the word

 

[Absolutely]

You are missed the point.
Because by leaving out the rapture verses and dynamics your point you think you make is weak beyond words.

You are evidently oblivious to the argument at hand.
IT IS NOT the fact Jesus returns postrib.
We ALL belive that.

The debate centers on "are we able to force fit the prejudgement rapture INTO OUR BELIEF.

That is the debste.

And yes there is a gathering postrib.

Anyone can see that.

By omitting the key verses (I know "my verses" is yet another tedious problem),you have no point in your persuasion.

But you guys actually rob yourselves.
SMH

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

what say you runningman??????

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Makes no sense

you painted yourself in a corner

Not really.

Specifically virgins with oil, lamps, light and waiting for Jesus and are gathered by Jesus are Guests and not born again saints, christians believers or however the latest label is applied?????

I put about a billion posts about:

--the LAMPS LIT pertains to the IN THE NIGHT [i.e. the TRIB YRS (Dan7:7, Gen46:2 "IN THE NIGHT"), etc], FOLLOWING "our Rapture/THE Departure"...

--like in, Lev24 - "2 Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually. 3 Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the Lord continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations."

--in the Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 passage (parallel Matt24 parts), the one I'm always pointing out, says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom"... NOT "TO BE wed"!! ), this is speaking of those IN THE TRIB to whom He will be "RETURNING" to the earth, about [Rev19+]... so v.35 had said (TO THEM, not to US) "keep your lamps/lights burning" (because this pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" / TRIB years, which WE will NOT BE PRESENT HERE FOR )

--the 'INVITATION" message will be [that is, going out IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years]: Matt24:14/26:13 [<--re: the OIL], and Matt22:9-14

ONLY one person is the bride under your logic?????

"[present] A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ" = "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ... the "ONE BODY" (so, in that sense, "ONE" / "SINGULAR"... [not the "PLURALS"] )

Did you even read what I put? (It appears not. )


The "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" of Rev19:7 is not the "INVITED [guestS - PLURAL]" of Rev19:9...

...and when "pre-tribbers" BLUR this DISTINCTION (in all the places I've pointed out), it poses problems for those who embrace "post-trib" (etc) coz it blurs the picture He has presented (thus they cannot "see" pre-trib for what it IS ).

huh?????

 

[Absolutely]

Not really.



I put about a billion posts about:

--the LAMPS LIT pertains to the IN THE NIGHT [i.e. the TRIB YRS (Dan7:7, Gen46:2 "IN THE NIGHT"), etc], FOLLOWING "our Rapture/THE Departure"...

--like in, Lev24 - "2 Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually. 3 Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the Lord continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations."

--in the Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 passage (parallel Matt24 parts), the one I'm always pointing out, says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom"... NOT "TO BE wed"!! ), this is speaking of those IN THE TRIB to whom He will be "RETURNING" to the earth, about [Rev19+]... so v.35 had said (TO THEM, not to US) "keep your lamps/lights burning" (because this pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" / TRIB years, which WE will NOT BE PRESENT HERE FOR )

--the 'INVITATION" message will be [that is, going out IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years]: Matt24:14/26:13 [<--re: the OIL], and Matt22:9-14



"[present] A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ" = "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ... the "ONE BODY" (so, in that sense, "ONE" / "SINGULAR"... [not the "PLURALS"] )

Did you even read what I put? (It appears not. )


The "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" of Rev19:7 is not the "INVITED [guestS - PLURAL]" of Rev19:9...

...and when "pre-tribbers" BLUR this DISTINCTION (in all the places I've pointed out), it poses problems for those who embrace "post-trib" (etc) coz it blurs the picture He has presented (thus they cannot "see" pre-trib for what it IS ).

who are the 5 wise ??

 

[Absolutely]

--the LAMPS LIT pertains to the IN THE NIGHT

No joke.

That is a no brainer that lamps are USED in the night.

But it is also a no brainer that the OWNERS of the LAMPS are in fact OWNERS of Light, OIl, and they (believers),control and carry Oil ,light, and are indeed in POSSESSION OF GOD (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet"...and "nobody puts a lamp under a table") both verses are to believers.

OIl is a type of the Holy Spirit
lamps CONTAIN, we are in fact lamps.
light.
...and the 5 foolish had those dynamics also.

 

[Absolutely]

Not really.



I put about a billion posts about:

--the LAMPS LIT pertains to the IN THE NIGHT [i.e. the TRIB YRS (Dan7:7, Gen46:2 "IN THE NIGHT"), etc], FOLLOWING "our Rapture/THE Departure"...

--like in, Lev24 - "2 Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually. 3 Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the Lord continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations."

--in the Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 passage (parallel Matt24 parts), the one I'm always pointing out, says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom"... NOT "TO BE wed"!! ), this is speaking of those IN THE TRIB to whom He will be "RETURNING" to the earth, about [Rev19+]... so v.35 had said (TO THEM, not to US) "keep your lamps/lights burning" (because this pertains to the "IN THE NIGHT" / TRIB years, which WE will NOT BE PRESENT HERE FOR )

--the 'INVITATION" message will be [that is, going out IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years]: Matt24:14/26:13 [<--re: the OIL], and Matt22:9-14



"[present] A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ" = "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ... the "ONE BODY" (so, in that sense, "ONE" / "SINGULAR"... [not the "PLURALS"] )

Did you even read what I put? (It appears not. )


The "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" of Rev19:7 is not the "INVITED [guestS - PLURAL]" of Rev19:9...

...and when "pre-tribbers" BLUR this DISTINCTION (in all the places I've pointed out), it poses problems for those who embrace "post-trib" (etc) coz it blurs the picture He has presented (thus they cannot "see" pre-trib for what it IS ).

Yes
let us look at luke
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

how in the world do you rearrange all that?????

now we have the rapture after the wedding with no bride.

really????

 

[Absolutely]

DWM you painted yourself into a corner big time.

you tried to make the wedding supper at the millennium.

that caused you to reframe the "return from wedding" dynamic and the 10 virgin parable.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes
let us look at luke
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat [G347], and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come [compare Rev16:15-16 Armageddon time-slot (NOT "our Rapture")], he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
how in the world do you rearrange all that?????

[bold, underline, and bracketed insertions mine ^ ]

What "rearrange"? This is His "Second Coming to the earth" (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")

now we have the rapture after the wedding with no bride.really????

No "bride/wife" is being talked about in this passage (nor in any of the "wedding feast/supper" passages ["wedding FEAST/SUPPER" = earthly MK age]).

[this is NOT the "RAPTURE" But His RETURN to the EARTH]



"the Day of the Lord *ARRIVES* like a thief IN THE NIGHT"... and like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 and Matt24:4/Mk13:5 (parallel the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the trib)]" of a woman in labor... which corresponds with the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME (Dan9:27a[26b] - "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]").

We will not be here then / for that... AT ALL.

This is talking about the TRIB YEARS.





ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/coming of, etc" verses/passages (like in the one quoted above) are referring to His "Second Coming to the earth" designation (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")... and Rev16:14-16/Rev19:19,21 (Armageddon time-slot) is His Second Coming to the earth, when HE HIMSELF (not the "TIME-PERIOD / DOTL" ARRIVAL, which arrived EARLIER [just after "our Rapture"]), but is when HE HIMSELF IN HIS PERSON will "come AS A THIEF. [period]" (note: "IN THE NIGHT" is not added to that phrase when referring to HE HIMSELF and His PERSONAL *RETURN* to the earth; His "RETURN"/"Second Coming to the earth" is at the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect OF "the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD... very lengthy time-period, which ALSO includes the entire MK age as well]").