-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The great tribulation is Christians being persecuted by people ultimately led by Satan. It is obviously not God persecuting Christians.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
-
1
- Show all
The great tribulation is Christians being persecuted by people ultimately led by Satan. It is obviously not God persecuting Christians.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Just one point though, your proffered scripture has to do with Jews.
- To "see" the Abomination of Desolation you have to be living in and around Jerusalem
- "Judea" is where Jews live
- The "Sabbath" is regulated by the Law of Moses - given only to Israel
- "False Christs" is a Jewish problem as they still await their Messiah
Neither verse says David was in Hades. I'll quote Barnes on this:
Acts 2:34-35
For David is not ascended into the heavens - That is, David has not risen from the dead and ascended to heaven. This further shows that Psa_16:1-11 could not refer to David, but must refer to the Messiah. Great as they esteemed David, and much as they were accustomed to apply these expressions of the Scripture to him, yet they could not be applicable to him. They must refer to some other being; and especially that passage which Peter now proceeds to quote. It was of great importance to show that these expressions could not apply to David, and also that David bore testimony to the exalted character and dignity of the Messiah.
Acts 2:34-35
For David is not ascended into the heavens - That is, David has not risen from the dead and ascended to heaven. This further shows that Psa_16:1-11 could not refer to David, but must refer to the Messiah. Great as they esteemed David, and much as they were accustomed to apply these expressions of the Scripture to him, yet they could not be applicable to him. They must refer to some other being; and especially that passage which Peter now proceeds to quote. It was of great importance to show that these expressions could not apply to David, and also that David bore testimony to the exalted character and dignity of the Messiah.
-
1
- Show all
How do you come to such conclusions:
"You should read it also. The thief's soul was in paradise but his body wasn't."
Let's look at Luke 16, verse by verse:
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
-- He was carried away by the angels, nothing is said about just his soul.
Luke 16:23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
-- The rich man was in torment, having already been judged and found lacking. He saw -- this takes eyes -- Abraham and Lazarus in his bosom. If Abraham and Lazarus had no bodies, then how did the rich man recognize whom they were? The soul is immaterial - invisible - thus, cannot be seen. How does one soul without a body, recline on another soul's bosom with no body?
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.
-- "he cried out". How would that be possible with no mouth? Lazarus had a "finger" to dip in the water and the rich man had a "tongue" that needed to be cooled. All of these things require a body.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish.
Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.
-- There was a huge "gulf" or "chasm" fixed between "Hades" and "Paradise". This separation could not be crossed by anyone. The plural is used in the last of verse 26, proving that there were others in both locations.
Luke 16:27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house;
Luke 16:28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
-- The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to witness to his five brothers, Lazarus could not of course go because this is not in the will of God. But if he could have, how would he have accomplished such a witness without a body?
Luke 16:29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.
Where are people getting this idea, that when one dies he/she is a bodiless soul? Scripture proves time and time again, this is not the case. In this teaching, I disagree with John MacArthur, who teaches that the "souls" of Revelation are bodiless.
Rev 6:9-11 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
However, the same objections must be raised as in Luke 16. It is said here that "they cried with a great voice". They cried out in unison. How could this be if they had no mouths? Additionally, it is said that each received "a white robe". What good would a robe have to a soul that has no body to hang it on? We must remember, that sometimes the word translated soul means a living being, not the immaterial part of man.
"You should read it also. The thief's soul was in paradise but his body wasn't."
Let's look at Luke 16, verse by verse:
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
-- He was carried away by the angels, nothing is said about just his soul.
Luke 16:23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
-- The rich man was in torment, having already been judged and found lacking. He saw -- this takes eyes -- Abraham and Lazarus in his bosom. If Abraham and Lazarus had no bodies, then how did the rich man recognize whom they were? The soul is immaterial - invisible - thus, cannot be seen. How does one soul without a body, recline on another soul's bosom with no body?
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.
-- "he cried out". How would that be possible with no mouth? Lazarus had a "finger" to dip in the water and the rich man had a "tongue" that needed to be cooled. All of these things require a body.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish.
Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.
-- There was a huge "gulf" or "chasm" fixed between "Hades" and "Paradise". This separation could not be crossed by anyone. The plural is used in the last of verse 26, proving that there were others in both locations.
Luke 16:27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house;
Luke 16:28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
-- The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to witness to his five brothers, Lazarus could not of course go because this is not in the will of God. But if he could have, how would he have accomplished such a witness without a body?
Luke 16:29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.
Where are people getting this idea, that when one dies he/she is a bodiless soul? Scripture proves time and time again, this is not the case. In this teaching, I disagree with John MacArthur, who teaches that the "souls" of Revelation are bodiless.
Rev 6:9-11 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
However, the same objections must be raised as in Luke 16. It is said here that "they cried with a great voice". They cried out in unison. How could this be if they had no mouths? Additionally, it is said that each received "a white robe". What good would a robe have to a soul that has no body to hang it on? We must remember, that sometimes the word translated soul means a living being, not the immaterial part of man.
The great tribulation is Christians being persecuted by people ultimately led by Satan. It is obviously not God persecuting Christians.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Lazarus had already put on his "incorruptible" body when he was carried away.
Paradise is separated by a "gulf". The two shall never meet. There is no real way to know how to understand this separation, just that Scripture says it exists.
As to the rest, you either did not read my points are have ignored them. If this is your idea of a discussion, then I will terminate my end of it.
Paradise is separated by a "gulf". The two shall never meet. There is no real way to know how to understand this separation, just that Scripture says it exists.
As to the rest, you either did not read my points are have ignored them. If this is your idea of a discussion, then I will terminate my end of it.
T
Eze 37:3 He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.'
5 "Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life.
6 'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.
9 Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life."'"
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.
14 "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"
Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
I think you should have posted a few scriptures like I did. Thirteen times in the Book of Revelation does the word "wrath" appear. TEN are the wrath of God or the Lamb - ranging fom Chapter 6 to Chapter 19. Nobody has the power to plunge the whole world into Tribulation except God. The Great Tribulation starts with a deep affront to God - the Abomination of Desolation (Matt.24). Both Israel and the Gentiles embrace the Beast. God will not wink at this. What happens after that is God's wrath on the world who has rejected His Son and embraced another.
I'm afraid the statements of Peter are plain and clear. David is still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection and ten days after His ascension. In the post I answered with this, you claimed that Paradise and Hades were different places. You also claimed that Paradise/Abraham's Bosom was for the Old Testament saints and NOT part of Hades. Acts 2 refutes this. As a future king (Jer.30:9), David would be in Paradise. But Acts 2 places him in Hades. The resurrection of David, from Paradise - which is IN HADES - must wait for the return of our Lord (1st Cor.15:23 - "at His coming").
I have already presented the Scriptures in my posts: #73 and #90 and will not repeat them again.
All of the Scriptures you have posted here are Temporal statements. Not statements of fact as related to Eternity. Again, Eternity knows NO TIME. It is the ever present NOW. Time has no dominion over God, He is Eternal. God is not waiting on anything to be accomplished, all that there is, is with Him in the NOW. This state of being, is why He is Omniscience. As Peter said:
2Pe 3:8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Let's take a few of your verses to prove what I am saying:
Verse 4-14, are a prophecy. As such they point to a future time. A temporal future. Future itself, is a time word. There is no future in Eternity.
John Ch. 5 verses use the statement " an hour is coming ", again a time word, pointing to a future event. Future to us in time but not to those in eternity. In John 5:25, two time words slam into each other, " ...an hour is coming and now is...". A future tense runs head on into a present tense. What do you make of that? How do you explain this?
The Oxford Dictionary describes the word eternity in this way:
e·ter·ni·ty
- a state to which time has no application; timelessness.
"the encounter between time and eternity
All of the Scriptures you have posted here are Temporal statements. Not statements of fact as related to Eternity. Again, Eternity knows NO TIME. It is the ever present NOW. Time has no dominion over God, He is Eternal. God is not waiting on anything to be accomplished, all that there is, is with Him in the NOW. This state of being, is why He is Omniscience. As Peter said:
2Pe 3:8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Let's take a few of your verses to prove what I am saying:
Verse 4-14, are a prophecy. As such they point to a future time. A temporal future. Future itself, is a time word. There is no future in Eternity.
John Ch. 5 verses use the statement " an hour is coming ", again a time word, pointing to a future event. Future to us in time but not to those in eternity. In John 5:25, two time words slam into each other, " ...an hour is coming and now is...". A future tense runs head on into a present tense. What do you make of that? How do you explain this?
The Oxford Dictionary describes the word eternity in this way:
e·ter·ni·ty
- a state to which time has no application; timelessness.
"the encounter between time and eternity
T
"Now is" because "I am the resurrection" was speaking. The power of resurrection was given to Jesus
You'll have to forgive, I don't have decades of intense Bible Study, so I can't respond to every challenge presented, or I just miss things, because I'm old. I don't think we are that far apart.
Souls go to heaven, resurrected bodies are raised into the coming Kingdom of God on earth, first for 1,000 years, and then into the New Jerusalem that comes down to the new earth. Bodies are not needed in heaven, two of the three persons of the Trinity are Spirits. Jesus appears bodily and in the Spirit, however He chooses.
The souls of the Tribulation Saints were in Heaven asking when God would take vengeance upon their murderers. Perhaps they had to ask, because as I think you are saying, time does not exist in the third Heaven. But earth is still unfolding on a timetable that He is following with us, the living.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
Mat 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS
Psa 97:10 Hate evil, you who love the LORD, Who preserves the souls of His godly ones; He delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
1Pe_1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
1Pe_1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
1Pe_2:25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
1Pe_4:19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
The "hour is coming":
Joh 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
And the "hour is now":
Imagine the Sadducees shock, when Jesus' gave them a glimpse of His Power "from beyond the grave":
There is a point, He shows us, when time stops for the earth too:
You'll have to forgive, I don't have decades of intense Bible Study, so I can't respond to every challenge presented, or I just miss things, because I'm old. I don't think we are that far apart.
Souls go to heaven, resurrected bodies are raised into the coming Kingdom of God on earth, first for 1,000 years, and then into the New Jerusalem that comes down to the new earth. Bodies are not needed in heaven, two of the three persons of the Trinity are Spirits. Jesus appears bodily and in the Spirit, however He chooses.
The souls of the Tribulation Saints were in Heaven asking when God would take vengeance upon their murderers. Perhaps they had to ask, because as I think you are saying, time does not exist in the third Heaven. But earth is still unfolding on a timetable that He is following with us, the living.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
- Even if our body dies in the future, if we believe in Him, our souls will be with Him.
- And if we believe in Him, even though our body dies, it will be raised again to eternal life on the day of Resurrection.
Mat 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS
Psa 97:10 Hate evil, you who love the LORD, Who preserves the souls of His godly ones; He delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
1Pe_1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
1Pe_1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
1Pe_2:25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
1Pe_4:19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
The "hour is coming":
Joh 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
- Jesus tells us the hour that is coming is the First and Second Resurrections, because that's when both the righteous and unrighteous (ALL) are resurrected. It is not an individual resurrection at the time of death, it is ALL people, at once. Our resurrected, then glorified, bodies will then live eternally on earth, being joined with our souls that descended from Heaven with Jesus at His Second Coming.
And the "hour is now":
Imagine the Sadducees shock, when Jesus' gave them a glimpse of His Power "from beyond the grave":
Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.
Mat 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many
Jesus can resurrect anybody, anytime. But He won't to eternal life until the end of the world, because He follows the Word He gave us. All the people He resurrected, died again, and are awaiting the resurrection to eternal life, with ALL the rest of mankind, at the end of the age.There is a point, He shows us, when time stops for the earth too:
- Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: