Sins cannot be charged!
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see i asked you earlier but you didn't answer.
so you're just trying to teach self-contradictory heresy directly & openly rejecting scripture in your cognitive dissonance. thanks for clarifying.
i'm interested in discussing things with people who discuss things, in a discussion topic on a discussion board.
so you're just trying to teach self-contradictory heresy directly & openly rejecting scripture in your cognitive dissonance. thanks for clarifying.
i'm interested in discussing things with people who discuss things, in a discussion topic on a discussion board.
Those Christ died for, the elect, sin cannot and will not be charged to them. Rom 4:7-8
7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 8:33,34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 8:33,34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Notice the ' election ' here as ' enemies .
Rom 11 .
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28¶As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Unsaved ' elect ' .
Also Jesus is ' elect '
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
Rom 11 .
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28¶As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Unsaved ' elect ' .
Also Jesus is ' elect '
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
they're not false -- they're completely justified and documented here in this thread. i've given you over a half-dozen scriptures stating unequivocally that Christ died for all men.
you have over & over & over pretended none of them exist.
you say Christ dying for a person = they are saved, with no mention of belief or repentance.
the Bible says Christ died for everyone --- therefore you are either preaching universal salvation, or you're openly denying the scripture.
the only other alternative is that you are mentally unsound, holding simultaneously contrary thoughts i.e. 'cognitive dissonance' by definition.
you have over & over & over pretended none of them exist.
you say Christ dying for a person = they are saved, with no mention of belief or repentance.
the Bible says Christ died for everyone --- therefore you are either preaching universal salvation, or you're openly denying the scripture.
the only other alternative is that you are mentally unsound, holding simultaneously contrary thoughts i.e. 'cognitive dissonance' by definition.
it's not like you've said much to anyone.
this is a discussion board, where we have discussions. we ask each other questions, give answers, and consider each other's points. we try to explain why we think and believe what it is we think and believe. we have conversations. there is give and take. we sharpen each other and learn from each other and grow.
you don't do much of that. you make blanket assertions, ignore valid criticism & scripture brought to your attention, refuse to explain yourself when questioned, and you say unkind things about people without justification.
when i met you @eternally-gratefull had already discovered this about you and was in the middle of giving up trying to reason with you. i thought i'd give it a go myself, not because i didn't respect or believe EG, but because i thought maybe you two got off on a bad foot but if a second person tried to be reasonable with you maybe you'd open up.
bro when i say this about the doctrine you are trying to teach, i am not saying it without cause or without being able to point to your own words in order to justify what i say.
this is a discussion board, where we have discussions. we ask each other questions, give answers, and consider each other's points. we try to explain why we think and believe what it is we think and believe. we have conversations. there is give and take. we sharpen each other and learn from each other and grow.
you don't do much of that. you make blanket assertions, ignore valid criticism & scripture brought to your attention, refuse to explain yourself when questioned, and you say unkind things about people without justification.
when i met you @eternally-gratefull had already discovered this about you and was in the middle of giving up trying to reason with you. i thought i'd give it a go myself, not because i didn't respect or believe EG, but because i thought maybe you two got off on a bad foot but if a second person tried to be reasonable with you maybe you'd open up.
bro when i say this about the doctrine you are trying to teach, i am not saying it without cause or without being able to point to your own words in order to justify what i say.
COVENANT OF GRACE
Ordered in all things and sure; and that is all our salvation. Now, if it was ordered in all things, it most certainly includes in its nature and constitution, the non-imputation of sin to the elect, the full imputation of it to Christ, and the transference of ALL LIABILITY to suffer for it from them to HIM. And these things all being immanent acts of the Divine Will, they must have been as complete at the instant they passed the eternal mind as ever they were or could be afterward, the natural consequence thus being—sin was never imputed to God’s people, but was always imputed to Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Therefore, as per the elect, He was the only person liable to suffer for it. Since in all things the Covenant of Grace/Love was ordered and thus made sure, then the elect having eternal proprietary interest, are eternally secure from all liability to wrath, when it was ratified by the joint oath of the Holy Trinity before time, as much so, as they were when Christ, in pursuance of His federal engagement, SUFFERED FOR THEM IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME.
WE READ IN DIVINE RECORD:
1. “God was in Christ reconciling the world (elect world) unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them.” (2nd Corinthians 5:19)
2. “That Jesus WAS made THE surety of a better testament.” (Hebrews 7:22)
3. “That God HATH NOT beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel.” (Numbers 23:21)
4. “ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED”. (Romans 11:26)
BLESSED SURETY RECONCILING!
The tenses of Numbers 23:21 are noteworthy (as we believe in verbal, plenary inspiration), as shall not behold is not the same as “hath not beheld” and “neither hath he seen” is not the same as shall not see.
God’s past tenses swallow all “contingencies” giving no allowance for future changes.
How can it be, “not imputing THEIR trespasses unto THEM”—REAL sin with real possessive pronouns, “their/them”—how can this be?
In a word substitute, in a word SURETY.
By Bill Bryant https://testallthings.com/2018/04/08/bill-bryant-covenant-of-grace/
Ordered in all things and sure; and that is all our salvation. Now, if it was ordered in all things, it most certainly includes in its nature and constitution, the non-imputation of sin to the elect, the full imputation of it to Christ, and the transference of ALL LIABILITY to suffer for it from them to HIM. And these things all being immanent acts of the Divine Will, they must have been as complete at the instant they passed the eternal mind as ever they were or could be afterward, the natural consequence thus being—sin was never imputed to God’s people, but was always imputed to Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Therefore, as per the elect, He was the only person liable to suffer for it. Since in all things the Covenant of Grace/Love was ordered and thus made sure, then the elect having eternal proprietary interest, are eternally secure from all liability to wrath, when it was ratified by the joint oath of the Holy Trinity before time, as much so, as they were when Christ, in pursuance of His federal engagement, SUFFERED FOR THEM IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME.
WE READ IN DIVINE RECORD:
1. “God was in Christ reconciling the world (elect world) unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them.” (2nd Corinthians 5:19)
2. “That Jesus WAS made THE surety of a better testament.” (Hebrews 7:22)
3. “That God HATH NOT beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel.” (Numbers 23:21)
4. “ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED”. (Romans 11:26)
BLESSED SURETY RECONCILING!
The tenses of Numbers 23:21 are noteworthy (as we believe in verbal, plenary inspiration), as shall not behold is not the same as “hath not beheld” and “neither hath he seen” is not the same as shall not see.
God’s past tenses swallow all “contingencies” giving no allowance for future changes.
How can it be, “not imputing THEIR trespasses unto THEM”—REAL sin with real possessive pronouns, “their/them”—how can this be?
In a word substitute, in a word SURETY.
By Bill Bryant https://testallthings.com/2018/04/08/bill-bryant-covenant-of-grace/
Wrong thread? Left field? I'm NOT playing a game here.
The title of the thread is, "Sins cannot be charged". Please read it again for the first time.
My response to this was posted and is repeated below.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.
God hates it and He hates those who do it.
God does NOT hear the prayer of the sinner except for the prayer of repentance. God WILL have an end to SIN either by the repentance (to turn away from) of those who live with it or the punishment and premature death of those who've been born again but continue to wallow in it.
Do not think God will wink at SIN in the life of the believer.
The LAW still stands.
St. Paul wrote in Romans 2:12, ""those who do not live by the LAW will die by the LAW." Peter also wrote in 1 Peter 4:17 "it is time for judgment to begin in the house of God..."
Jesus, who is something of an authority on the subject, was quoted in Matthew 5:17 as saying, "I did NOT come to abolish the LAW, I came to fulfill it." Continue reading the next line where Our Lord said not one jot or tittle would be removed from the LAW. Jots and tittles are the tiny marks in Hebrew writing that act like punctuation. Not one dot of the LAW will fail.
When Jesus said He didn't come to abolish the LAW, which part of NOT does the reader not understand?
Why do people who claim to be followers of Jesus, who lived by the LAW, spend so much time denying the LAW and spend time justifying SIN instead?
No one can be saved apart from the LAW.
Some Biblically illiterate person will write that we're saved by grace, not law. There are two problems with this assumption.
First is that such persons do not understand there are TWO laws. One is Torah, given by grace. The other is Talmud, accomplished by works.
Jesus is, by current definition of the term, a Karaite Jew. Karaite Jews are those who deny Talmud as canonical scripture. They read study and live by Torah and the prophets of the Tanakh (protestant OT). Jesus always quoted Torah (mostly Deuteronomy, actually) and the prophets of the Tanakh. He NEVER quoted the teachings of the Talmudic rabbinate (which Jews of today follow - religiously).(*)
Bear in mind the entire Bible, except for the gospel of Luke and book of Acts, was written by Jews for Jews. Jews who read those words understand references to Jewish tradition (between the lines, as it were). References in the NT to the law are usually references to Talmudic law - or that part of Torah that was fulfilled by Jesus. Grace is not a mask that covers the LAW God gave to Moses and the world. GRACE is intended to act as justification for SIN. GRACE and LAW work together.
The Jewish holiday of Shavout is an observance of the day God gave the LAW too Moses.
The gentile holiday of Pentecost is an observance of the day God gave the Holy Spirit, GRACE, to the world.
Do you not know that BOTH holidays fall on the same calendar day?
Is this a coincidence or is God saying something important about LAW & GRACE?
They are two sides of the same coin (of redemption & reconciliation unto God).
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) According to Talmud, 10 rabbis who agree on a thing force God to comply with their decisions. God is thus subservient to the will of the rabbinate - according to Talmud.
The title of the thread is, "Sins cannot be charged". Please read it again for the first time.
My response to this was posted and is repeated below.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.
God hates it and He hates those who do it.
God does NOT hear the prayer of the sinner except for the prayer of repentance. God WILL have an end to SIN either by the repentance (to turn away from) of those who live with it or the punishment and premature death of those who've been born again but continue to wallow in it.
Do not think God will wink at SIN in the life of the believer.
The LAW still stands.
St. Paul wrote in Romans 2:12, ""those who do not live by the LAW will die by the LAW." Peter also wrote in 1 Peter 4:17 "it is time for judgment to begin in the house of God..."
Jesus, who is something of an authority on the subject, was quoted in Matthew 5:17 as saying, "I did NOT come to abolish the LAW, I came to fulfill it." Continue reading the next line where Our Lord said not one jot or tittle would be removed from the LAW. Jots and tittles are the tiny marks in Hebrew writing that act like punctuation. Not one dot of the LAW will fail.
When Jesus said He didn't come to abolish the LAW, which part of NOT does the reader not understand?
Why do people who claim to be followers of Jesus, who lived by the LAW, spend so much time denying the LAW and spend time justifying SIN instead?
No one can be saved apart from the LAW.
Some Biblically illiterate person will write that we're saved by grace, not law. There are two problems with this assumption.
First is that such persons do not understand there are TWO laws. One is Torah, given by grace. The other is Talmud, accomplished by works.
Jesus is, by current definition of the term, a Karaite Jew. Karaite Jews are those who deny Talmud as canonical scripture. They read study and live by Torah and the prophets of the Tanakh (protestant OT). Jesus always quoted Torah (mostly Deuteronomy, actually) and the prophets of the Tanakh. He NEVER quoted the teachings of the Talmudic rabbinate (which Jews of today follow - religiously).(*)
Bear in mind the entire Bible, except for the gospel of Luke and book of Acts, was written by Jews for Jews. Jews who read those words understand references to Jewish tradition (between the lines, as it were). References in the NT to the law are usually references to Talmudic law - or that part of Torah that was fulfilled by Jesus. Grace is not a mask that covers the LAW God gave to Moses and the world. GRACE is intended to act as justification for SIN. GRACE and LAW work together.
The Jewish holiday of Shavout is an observance of the day God gave the LAW too Moses.
The gentile holiday of Pentecost is an observance of the day God gave the Holy Spirit, GRACE, to the world.
Do you not know that BOTH holidays fall on the same calendar day?
Is this a coincidence or is God saying something important about LAW & GRACE?
They are two sides of the same coin (of redemption & reconciliation unto God).
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) According to Talmud, 10 rabbis who agree on a thing force God to comply with their decisions. God is thus subservient to the will of the rabbinate - according to Talmud.
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Correction to post #258 above.
I wrote,"GRACE is intended to act as justification for SIN."
The onLine editor wouldn't let me correct this line to; "GRACE is NOT intended to act as justification for SIN."
My apologies for the typo. I tend to write long and the automatic editor won't give me enough time to make it shorter.
CL
I wrote,"GRACE is intended to act as justification for SIN."
The onLine editor wouldn't let me correct this line to; "GRACE is NOT intended to act as justification for SIN."
My apologies for the typo. I tend to write long and the automatic editor won't give me enough time to make it shorter.
CL