Are there any radical reformers out there?

[mustaphadrink]

So let's leave the first century for a minute. We can agree to disagree on what we think we know about the early church.

Regardless of what level of success the church was having in winning souls from one city to the next in 1st Century Roman Empire, I am now responsible for fulfilling the great commission in my day and in my community. I believe in soulwinning. The more the better.

If you are doin g a study of the life of the New Testament Church, you cannot leave the first century as that is where it all began.

 

[Scribe]

If you are doin g a study of the life of the New Testament Church, you cannot leave the first century as that is where it all began.

Indeed but we have already come to an empasse on the size of the house churches. You with your extensive research and my mediocre research has come to different conclusions. Why keep arguing?

There was explosive growth in the first century and persecutions, there were times when they were enjoying the favor of the Empire and times they were being slaughtered and had to hide in catacombs, there were large churches and there were small churches. We can't model the exact size of a church and say this is how it was all the time, that is not real history.

If we are in a big community and not being hunted down and killed for our faith we should be experiencing explosive growth. If not we should get back to the Great Commission and we will.

 

[Lanolin]

I think there comes a time when you stop looking inward at whether or not you belong in this or that church but you start looking outward and evangelising to those who dont know Christ. There you will find you ARE church to these new believers as they get to know Him.

some people get too stuck on traditions and how things are always done. Church has always been dynamic body of believers who are commited. to spreading the gospel. In whatever way shape or form we are to be as Christ to others.

so what if the church you are in has 3 or 3000 and shaped like spaghetti. Overall what God is looking for is those who are conforming to His image and that begins with each and every soul who professes Christ.

 

[Scribe]

and shaped like spaghetti. .

 

[mustaphadrink]

Indeed but we have already come to an empasse on the size of the house churches. You with your extensive research and my mediocre research has come to different conclusions. Why keep arguing?

There was explosive growth in the first century and persecutions, there were times when they were enjoying the favor of the Empire and times they were being slaughtered and had to hide in catacombs, there were large churches and there were small churches. We can't model the exact size of a church and say this is how it was all the time, that is not real history.

If we are in a big community and not being hunted down and killed for our faith we should be experiencing explosive growth. If not we should get back to the Great Commission and we will.

The New Testament Church by and large was always a large church such as the Church in Corinth. There was only one church in each town which was governed by a body of Elders (not pastors) and they met in homes throughout the city or town. But they never saw themselves as different churches. Just a branch of the one church in the town.

 

[Scribe]

The New Testament Church by and large was always a large church such as the Church in Corinth. There was only one church in each town which was governed by a body of Elders (not pastors) and they met in homes throughout the city or town. But they never saw themselves as different churches. Just a branch of the one church in the town.

Sounds like a megachurch with home group meetings during the week.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Sounds like a megachurch with home group meetings during the week.

NO, there is no indication that they all met together on Sundays. They were a home church until the catholic church mucked things up.

 

[Scribe]

NO, there is no indication that they all met together on Sundays. They were a home church until the catholic church mucked things up.

Large homes with shops on ground floors. We call them Storefronts today.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Large homes with shops on ground floors. We call them Storefronts today.

No record of that in the history books.

 

[CeeCee]

I definitely would never go back to church. I find that I’m much closer to God when I speak to people in chats like these and pull out my own Bible ask God for discernment and understanding. We can definitely see that the churches don’t work because look at the state of America at this time that is supposed to be a “Christian nation”!
It was quite interesting when I heard a pastor the other day on YouTube say that she discovered there are more Christians and people who truly love God outside of the church then inside of the church. I definitely feel that is true.
I was actually enjoying her YouTube channel and I think she has a lot of good information but is soon as she finished talking she was already trying to sell me her latest book. She even did that in the beginning of the video which was a turn off for me. I feel like a lot of the churches have just become about money and greed. They care less and less about souls in the kingdom and more about finances. How about inviting people to come to know Christ at the beginning of the video and at the end instead of saying, “Hey, buy my latest book ! Of course that is just my opinion.

 

[3angelsmsg]

I definitely would never go back to church. I find that I’m much closer to God when I speak to people in chats like these and pull out my own Bible ask God for discernment and understanding. We can definitely see that the churches don’t work because look at the state of America at this time that is supposed to be a “Christian nation”!
It was quite interesting when I heard a pastor the other day on YouTube say that she discovered there are more Christians and people who truly love God outside of the church then inside of the church. I definitely feel that is true.
I was actually enjoying her YouTube channel and I think she has a lot of good information but is soon as she finished talking she was already trying to sell me her latest book. She even did that in the beginning of the video which was a turn off for me. I feel like a lot of the churches have just become about money and greed. They care less and less about souls in the kingdom and more about finances. How about inviting people to come to know Christ at the beginning of the video and at the end instead of saying, “Hey, buy my latest book ! Of course that is just my opinion.

I agree with your sentiments that it looks as if churches are more concerned with how much tithing and offering came in. That's what nearly got me to give up on my belief of the bible. Because I thought all churches are only out there to make money.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

If you are doin g a study of the life of the New Testament Church, you cannot leave the first century as that is where it all began.

I must confess my sins.
I became a judge of my spiritual brothers.
One by one I saw the error in all churches eventually leading to see error within my very own church and the members within it. I judged them and eventually questioned their salvation. This led me to ask if there were any true churches.

I began to swerve from the truth and was becoming as described Timothy 1:5-7

1 Timothy 1:5-7
5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

I am now moving back to what is essential and applies to me first and foremost:

1 Timothy 1:15
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

What is important for me is that I am NOT TO BE A JUDGE.

James 5:9
9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

My being a judge of my brothers meant that I put judgement on the very sins of myself, which are many.

There are true churches out there that do not judge others, that do not show no partiality, and especially that preach strongly this gospel truth:

Galatians 3:10-14
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

 

[oldethennew]

you have obviously been lulled into false churches,
the scriptures are very clear that we ARE to 'JUDGE' among 'true brethren'...
1COR. 6:2.
Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you,
are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3.
Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4.
If then you have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5.
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one
that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

 

[Blade]

Are there any radical reformers out there?
Anyone out there that has found all organized churches to be false?

Hmm I've read there are something like 30+ million Churches in the world. So how would anyone "found all organized Churches to be false"? Could not we just flip this and say anyone find "radical reformers" to be false? Have we been to every Church in our own city? See I look at things as if I said it. If it was me really truly seeking I would have gone to ever Church. Yet this song is truth "Christ in me" Jeremy Camp

Pray seek Him read that word keep it before your eyes. Be in prayer ALWAYS and praying about everything. Speak words of life. Again what He will say is get that beam out of your eye then go help your brother get that spec out of his eye. You talk about many things that are just speculation. JESUS is real... see ALL of this through His eyes. See the good first. What I mean every person every group you talked about do you know the GOOD they do first? What believer .. the light in this world sees the only darkness? What would YOU want people to see of you frist?



At some point its not "what about all them" He will be asking just you only you what do YOU believe? Work out your own salvation.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Hmm I've read there are something like 30+ million Churches in the world. So how would anyone "found all organized Churches to be false"? Could not we just flip this and say anyone find "radical reformers" to be false? Have we been to every Church in our own city? See I look at things as if I said it. If it was me really truly seeking I would have gone to ever Church. Yet this song is truth "Christ in me" Jeremy Camp

Pray seek Him read that word keep it before your eyes. Be in prayer ALWAYS and praying about everything. Speak words of life. Again what He will say is get that beam out of your eye then go help your brother get that spec out of his eye. You talk about many things that are just speculation. JESUS is real... see ALL of this through His eyes. See the good first. What I mean every person every group you talked about do you know the GOOD they do first? What believer .. the light in this world sees the only darkness? What would YOU want people to see of you frist?



At some point its not "what about all them" He will be asking just you only you what do YOU believe? Work out your own salvation.

I would have to say your reply was quite dismissive. I have studied the New Testamernt Church in depth for a Ph.D. and I have studied the modern day church in depth. I have written to denominational leaders to ask certain questions and everyone has admitted his denomination does not take the bible seriously. Maintaining the status quo was more important. One major denomination accepts cults into their fold and when told it was a cult they said it was none of their business.

Do you know how research is done? I went to university for 6 years and obtained three degrees so I learnt the methodology of doing research. Whatever the subject matter is you do not need to visit everyone to gain the information you want. You deal with a representative example and from that you extrapolate the evidence. Just like a survey. You don't contact every person in the phone book. You might contact 1,000 and from their responses say that 57% of the population believes this.

So it is not difficult to survery the church say a thousand of them, and get an assessment of how they operate. it would probably be a waste of time to survey 10,000 of them because all you will get is the same answers as you have already got.

I guess we all have our ideas about things but for me, sticking with the facts is more important than what I think.

 

[mustaphadrink]

I agree with your sentiments that it looks as if churches are more concerned with how much tithing and offering came in. That's what nearly got me to give up on my belief of the bible. Because I thought all churches are only out there to make money.

You can be forgiven for thinking that. Tithing is pushed because they have to make sure that the pastors salary is covered. The fact that neither are scriptual is not relevant.

In the UK we were part of church that had seven Elders (no pastors) in charge. None of them were paid. Most of them were not employed in secular work. They had a ministry of their own which brought in gifts and offerings (no tithes).

I remember one Easter Conference where we had an offering taken up for those in financial need (scriptual) and then they asked people who were in financial need to come forward and be given some money.

Because this was scriptural, no one questioned those who came forward. No one asked for big amounts. They just wanted enough to tie them over for a couple of weeks.

The scriptures says to take no thought for tomorrow. In NT times, prosperity was seen as having enough food for today and some left over for tomorrow. If you had some left over for tomorrow you were considered rich. No one had a plane to fly around in.

it seems to me most churches are laying up treasure where moth and rust corrupt, whilst millions of believers out there are going without food.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Yes. Nevertheless in hermeneutics (the art and science of interpretation (of scriptures namely)) there is a rule of cultural context. One must close the 2000 year cultural gap and define what that looked like in the first century. What did the houses that the churches met in look like in 50AD? 60AD? 90AD? We get this information from other documents written at the time and from archaeology and historians that wrote during or near to this time. What we discover is that many houses were built with courtyards large enough to seat many people. A couple of hundred or more depending on the size of the house. It is well known that those who were wealthy in Ephesus, Colossae, Philippi were using their houses for the church to meet in. These obviously had more room.

It makes sense that a house with a a courtyard or larger rooms were used for a church meeting than to say they limited the number of people in a church to what could fit in the average poor persons one room apartment don't you think?

And I don't find it scripturally accurate to say that they met in living rooms that could only seat 20 people so why do people try to make others think that is how the first churches met. It isn't true. There was no efforts to make churches small in the first century.
Every effort was to win souls, the more the better.
If your church is not experiencing explosive growth, teach soul winning classes and sermons. Let's get busy, the time is short.

A 1st century home with courtyard. Upper middle class.

The square footage of a house could vary enormously. Concerning the ruins at Pompeii, Carolyn Osiek and David Balch observe, “The average property is ten times larger than the smallest, the largest ten times larger than the average.” (17) Examination of 234 ruins at Pomepeii and Herculaneum revealed homes that ranged from 100 square meters to 3,000 square meters. (201) The specifics of the homes varied considerably but the basic features I just described were fairly constant.

These homes were often remodeled, or torn down and rebuilt. It is believed that the original house churches met in these homes, in either the atrium or the peritsyle. As the numbers of people expanded, walls would be torn out to make more space. According to Osiek and Balch, it appears that Christians in the mid-Second Century and later began to buy homes and convert them into shells with open space to hold a number of people. (35) These became the first domus ecclesia buildings dedicated entirely to meeting for worship. But even prior to emergence of these domus ecclesia it was possible that large numbers could have met together in the peristyle of some homes. Some of the larger homes in Pompeii could easily have handled a couple hundred folks. The House of Citharist could have accommodated more than 1,100 people. (201) It is not accurate to assume that all of the New Testament churches were limited to two or three dozen people.

The average poor persons one room apartment?? Do you have the gift of exaggeration?

And it is interesting that there is no reference in the scriptures or history that suggests what you are suggesting.

 

[Scribe]

The average poor persons one room apartment?? Do you have the gift of exaggeration?

And it is interesting that there is no reference in the scriptures or history that suggests what you are suggesting.

So you don't find value in reading historical accounts of life from the time of Christ and the book of Acts? That is why people think that "church in her house" or other references similar must have been a small group, because they are thinking of their own living rooms.

It is common knowledge that other documents besides the bible written from the same time add to the cultural understanding of what life was like at the time.

7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. 8And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

If a house was large enough, had large upper chambers, or courtyards etc. that would be a good one to meet in. If there were people in the church who had such homes and offered them for meeting then you have a house church that just because it was in a house does not regulate it to the size of an average home or apt in your neighborhood.

I believe the scriptures are clear that there was explosive growth. These house churches were not just 10 people. You are missing out if you forsake the assembly of a local church and try to keep your group down in size because you think that is how they did it in the book of Acts. There are many gifts in others members of the body besides the 10 your meeting with that you will not be receiving from. People God wants to be in your life but you are excluding them by enforcing an artificial small size house rule you mistakenly invented by misinterpreting the scriptures based on a 2000 year cultural misappropriation.

I have to explain this often to people and most of them appreciate the background information. Many things in scripture require some background information. If you wonder why it is not in the text it is very simple. The authors were writing to real people in real cities at a particular time and knew that their readers did not need everything explained all the time. They were not historians writing about ancient history to a modern culture. They were writing to people who understood what a house church was. If you don't read other documents about what a house church looked like from other New Testament Survey books and those who have collected the cultural documents and archaeology you are missing valuable information from the perspective of the audience that Paul or Luke was writing to. We have to get in their shoes and in their time and culture. What did it mean to them?

We know that the church did not meet in a one room apartment. So who's house did they meet in? There is documentation from other writings during this time. I posted an example. They have documents of houses used by early Christians like the picture I showed. And a house with a large upper room with many lights is a good example that I have included for you from the scripture from Acts 20.

 

[mustaphadrink]

So you don't find value in reading historical accounts of life from the time of Christ and the book of Acts? That is why people think that "church in her house" or other references similar must have been a small group, because they are thinking of their own living rooms.

It is common knowledge that other documents besides the bible written from the same time add to the cultural understanding of what life was like at the time.

7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. 8And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

If a house was large enough, had large upper chambers, or courtyards etc. that would be a good one to meet in. If there were people in the church who had such homes and offered them for meeting then you have a house church that just because it was in a house does not regulate it to the size of an average home or apt in your neighborhood.

I believe the scriptures are clear that there was explosive growth. These house churches were not just 10 people. You are missing out if you forsake the assembly of a local church and try to keep your group down in size because you think that is how they did it in the book of Acts. There are many gifts in others members of the body besides the 10 your meeting with that you will not be receiving from. People God wants to be in your life but you are excluding them by enforcing an artificial small size house rule you mistakenly invented by misinterpreting the scriptures based on a 2000 year cultural misappropriation.

I have to explain this often to people and most of them appreciate the background information. Many things in scripture require some background information. If you wonder why it is not in the text it is very simple. The authors were writing to real people in real cities at a particular time and knew that their readers did not need everything explained all the time. They were not historians writing about ancient history to a modern culture. They were writing to people who understood what a house church was. If you don't read other documents about what a house church looked like from other New Testament Survey books and those who have collected the cultural documents and archaeology you are missing valuable information from the perspective of the audience that Paul or Luke was writing to. We have to get in their shoes and in their time and culture. What did it mean to them?

We know that the church did not meet in a one room apartment. So who's house did they meet in? There is documentation from other writings during this time. I posted an example. They have documents of houses used by early Christians like the picture I showed. And a house with a large upper room with many lights is a good example that I have included for you from the scripture from Acts 20.

Y|ou have made too many assumption about me most of which are incorrect. And your comment "so you don't find value in reading historical accounts" etc. shows that you do not do your homework.

 

[Scribe]

Y|ou have made too many assumption about me most of which are incorrect. And your comment "so you don't find value in reading historical accounts" etc. shows that you do not do your homework.

I have read three New Testament Survey Books last year each written by a collection of Theologians with impressive credentials and lots of sources cited, and footnotes and I concede that I am relying on these Bible college level textbooks to be true and they all say that house churches were houses where there was room to accommodate large groups and they all have documentation to prove the court yards was one of the common features of these houses, and that wealthier members who had larger houses would use their house for hosting church meetings. I trust that they know what the resources I am using are accurate.