The Resurrection and Funerals

[Corban]

What do you think Jesus means when he said those who believe in me shall never die?
And what Paul means when he said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?
To be present with the Lord is heaven even here on earth he said the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The idea of the spirit going to the Lord at death does not diametrically oppose the resurrection. The problem is with us. If it doesn't fit into newtonian physics we can't understand it so we just reject it and try to explain it away. However God isn't bound by that. 3 distinct individuals are one God, God became a man a human, yet was also in the heavenly, water saves, wine is blood, bread is flesh, all of this is impossible yet God does it anyway. We just can accept it because we have no faith.

May I refer you to my answer to Magenta in posting # 20. Thanks.

 

[Corban]

I agree, your opponents teach 7th day Adventism & Jehovahs Witnesses Annihilation, denying a literal fiery torment upon death as seen below

The beggar died, and his spirit was in comfort, while the rich man was in torment, "While" their bodies are awaiting the bodily resurrection

Annihilation is a false teachibg

Revelation 16:19-31KJV
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Nobody said anything about annihilation. You have created your own thesis and then answered it as if it was somebody else's. Why not answer my arguments in posting # 7 and # 20?

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

When our Lord died Matthew 12:40 says plainly that He would spend 3 days "in the heart of the earth". Ephesian 4:8-9 says He "first descended". John 20:17 says that after He "ROSE" He had "not YET ascended to His Father". His body remained on the surface of the earth in a tomb. His spirit went to the Father. The place under the earth is called "Hades". Since man was created in Genesis 2, he is a "SOUL". From then on men are called "souls" throughout the Bible. Acts Chapter 2 shows that is was to Hades that Jesus went, and that after three days He was released by the Father. But the same verses 24-35, tell us that David is still dead and still in Hades.

Ecclesiastes 12 says that the SPIRIT, not soul, goes to the Father. So also did our Lord Jesus "commend His spirit" into the Father's hands. In every case in the Bible that addresses the spirit of man says; "gave UP the ghost". Man has a spirit, but man is not a spirit. The man is the SOUL.

Revelation 6:9-10 says that the "SOULS" were UNDER the altar. When Moses made the Tabernacle he was told to COPY the Tabernacle in heaven. The Tabernacle has TWO altars: (i) the altar of SACRIFICE, which is OUTSIDE the Tabernacle but in the Inner Court. It is wood covered with brass, and on it things shed their blood. Inside the Tabernacle, hard against the Veil that separates the Holy Place for the Holy of Holies, is the "Incense ALTAR". It is a small wooden altar covered with gold and from it the incense goes up with the prayers of the saints. No blood was to be shed on this after its anointing. The altar of SACRIFICE is not needed in heaven for there is no redemption for the heavenly beings. The only altar of sacrifice is ON EARTH, for it is here that men need atonement. And this altar is not allowed to be elevated off the earth, even by steps, lest the "nakedness of the priest be revealed.

The altar of Revelation 6:9-10 is the altar where the martyrs shed their blood. They are dead and if the altar was raised you would see their nakedness - for the dead are naked (2nd Cor.5). If the altar of sacrifice, where men sacrifices their lives for Christ, is hard against the earth, then the martyrs must be under the earth.

Revelation 7:9-17 shows the great multitude who are connected with Christ. You are correct. They are in heaven for the throne is there with the 24 Elders and the 4 Creatures. But who are they. They are those who came through the Great Tribulation and "STAND" before the throne. To be raptured to the throne you must ALIVE WITH A BODY (1st Thess.4:14-17). and to "stand" you must be resurrected and alive. These are LIVING men, not the DEAD.

Scripture lays down the relationship between men and the Man Jesus. In John Chapter 4, the Lord says to the Samaritan woman that the "now is" that the Father seeks men that will worship Him IN SPIRIT - not in a mountain. Then, our Lord says in John that He must go away so that the SPIRIT may come. In 1st Corinthians 6:17 this is confirmed. "He who is JOINED to the Lord is ONE SPIRIT". In Romans 8 the whole Chapter is about this relationship via the human spirit. And then in 2nd Corinthians 5:16 we are taught; "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." If you are dead and your BODY (the flesh) is left on earth, you cannot be with the Lord in BODY. In death, the relationship of with the Lord REMAINS via His SPIRIT. It does not change because the flesh is gone. So it is NOT a case of us being in heaven, but our Lord's Spirit WITH US IN HADES! Psalm 139:7–8 says;

7 "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in HADES, behold, thou art there."

As you can see, there is a perfectly logical, and scriptural explanation for the verses you brought. Added to this, your verses did not say that the dead go to heaven. You had to read that into them. And finally, you did not attempt to deal with my arguments. I know that this doctrine of dead men going to heaven is widely taught. I know where it comes from. I make no accusation against a Christian for holding it. But I think that you will reconsider.

What do you make of this passage?
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (1 Pet. 3:18–20)

 

[JohnDB]

I may have posted in the past about going to two funerals-- at a Baptist church and a Pentecostal church-- and hearing references to dying and going to heaven, but no references to the resurrection. I was specifically listening for it. I went to a Roman Catholic funeral, the first ever for me, for a young man who wasn't Roman Catholic but when to an Roman Catholic university. Their liturgy was full of reference to the resurrection. The prayers for the dead I'd been warned about were prayers that God would raise the deceased from the dead at the resurrection... along the lines of a prayer for God to (presumably) fulfill his word.

An aunt of mine passed away. My father was the youngest in a very large family, and all but one of his siblings have now passed on, most living into old age. I lived far from my dad's relatives and saw them once a year growing up. His surviving brother is a retired Independent Baptist pastor. I got to know just a few first cousins kind of well since some of them were grown when I was a child and did not always go to reunions, or I was out playing. The younger preacher, who I think may have taken over the church where he ministered, where my recently deceased aunt attended, spoke on I Corinthians 15. I cannot say he was exactly wrong in anything he said, but I was wondering if I had the 'pop' idea that a Christian just dies and go to heaven forever, that I would have thought any differently after that. My uncle spoke, and he talked about the resurrection of the dead. He said that one day there would be a one-world government.... the Ruler would be Jesus Christ. He also spoke out of I Thessalonians 4 about the dead in Christ rising and they that are alive and remain being caught up to meet the Lord from the dead. I thought this was appropriate since Paul wrote to 'comfort one another with these words.'

I find myself, if I attend a traditional evangelical church service and hear the altar call, I'm paying attention as to whether the gospel is preached first. I listen for doctrine of the resurrection at funerals.

How many of you have gone to church for years and never really heard the fact that the saints will be resurrected from the dead clearly taught, and hear things that reinforce the idea that the afterlife is eternity in a disembodied state in heaven? How often do you hear references to the resurrection if you attend funerals? (Hopefully you do not have to go to that many.)

All the time unfortunately...
Now what I find interesting is how Paul and others when commenting on Paul's letters can't seem to make heads or tails out of the primary condition of Heaven: timelessness.

And I understand that it's a very difficult concept to wrap your head around.

Time itself is a construct that God has made and placed the universe inside of.
Heaven isn't in this universe. But we do go to Heaven when we die physically.
But that doesn't mean that we are really dead...just gone from here. We have gone into the realm of an ever present now...

Think of time as the length of a room...which one gets there first is more of a question of where they popped into the room they arrived and not when.
In fact the really mind bending reality is that you are there in Heaven now. Because of the mechanics/laws of time you can't actually experience that, nor has your new heavenly body any contact with your earthly body.

Your "Soul" is not a spirit although it contains your spirit.
Your Soul is not your mind but it houses your mind.
Your Soul is not your body but it contains your body too...

Your Soul is actually all three above portions of you according to Hebrew thought. In order for you to be a Soul you have to have all three things. (Contrary to what Hollywood and Frankenstein or angel movies thinks)

Even animals have a soul.

Can't comprehend any of this? Don't feel alone...fourth dimensional thinking when you are limited by three is not for everyone.

 

[Corban]

What do you make of this passage?
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (1 Pet. 3:18–20)

The context of 1st Peter is the Holy Spirit and His doings (1st Peter.1:2, 11, 22, 3:4, 18-19, 4:6, 14). Notice the grammar of 3:18-19. I've made it bold for you. That is, the Holy Spirit, Who raised Jesus from the dead, is THAT SPIRIT of Jesus that preached to the spirits (at Noah's time by inspiring Noah) and who are now in prison - Tartaroo (2nd Pet.2:4). Note that He preached to spirits, not souls. They were the angels that mixed with women, and angels are spirits - not souls (Ps.104:4). A man is always "a soul".

I personally think that that Hades, has three sections - (i) Hades general, (ii) Paradise - a section for those of the faith, and (iii) Tartaroo - a section for disobedient angels. My belief is based on Revelation 9 and Appolyon being the angel of a "bottomless pit". It must be under the earth, but a different department of Hades because our Lord Jesus has the keys to Hades for men, not an angel. Added to this, at the White Throne, the fallen angels are judged. They must have come from Hades. But I would not fight for this as the Lord has largely remained silent about what goes on under the earth. The meaning of the Name "Hades" is "unseen". Put it this way. The Beast is a MAN and comes from the "bottomless pit", but so do those "Locust-scorpions" who have wings.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The context of 1st Peter is the Holy Spirit and His doings (1st Peter.1:2, 11, 22, 3:4, 18-19, 4:6, 14). Notice the grammar of 3:18-19. I've made it bold for you. That is, the Holy Spirit, Who raised Jesus from the dead, is THAT SPIRIT of Jesus that preached to the spirits (at Noah's time by inspiring Noah) and who are now in prison - Tartaroo (2nd Pet.2:4). Note that He preached to spirits, not souls. They were the angels that mixed with women, and angels are spirits - not souls (Ps.104:4). A man is always "a soul".

I personally think that that Hades, has three sections - (i) Hades general, (ii) Paradise - a section for those of the faith, and (iii) Tartaroo - a section for disobedient angels. My belief is based on Revelation 9 and Appolyon being the angel of a "bottomless pit". It must be under the earth, but a different department of Hades because our Lord Jesus has the keys to Hades for men, not an angel. Added to this, at the White Throne, the fallen angels are judged. They must have come from Hades. But I would not fight for this as the Lord has largely remained silent about what goes on under the earth. The meaning of the Name "Hades" is "unseen". Put it this way. The Beast is a MAN and comes from the "bottomless pit", but so do those "Locust-scorpions" who have wings.

Good day, Corban!

I agree with all that you said above, for I came to that same conclusion. However, scripture states that the beast is that angel of the Abyss:

"They had tails with stingers like scorpions, which had the power to injure people for five months. They were ruled by a king, the angel of the Abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek it is Apollyon." It is at the time that he comes up out of the Abyss that he kills the two witnesses.

At the sounding of the 5th trumpet/1st woe, an angel falls to the earth having the key to the Abyss and opens it, releasing those demonic beings resembling locusts. Their king is that angel of the Abyss (abaddon/apollyon), who will be the power behind the antichrist/man of lawlessness who will be a man.

 

[Lisamn]

There will be no Millennium on this earth at the return of Jesus Christ, its fire time, as the heavens and earth are dissolved in fiery judgement

Scripture refutes what you say..

Revelation‬ ‭19:15‬ ‭
From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
‭‭​

Revelation‬ ‭20:4, 6‬ ‭
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.​

‭‭

hear things that reinforce the idea that the afterlife is eternity in a disembodied state in heaven?

What’s this?

 

[ewq1938]

There will be no Millennium on this earth at the return of Jesus Christ, its fire time, as the heavens and earth are dissolved in fiery judgement

That is wrong. The Millennium happens after Christ returns. The Heavens and Earth are not dissolved by fire at that time either.

 

[Corban]

Good day, Corban!

I agree with all that you said above, for I came to that same conclusion. However, scripture states that the beast is that angel of the Abyss:

"They had tails with stingers like scorpions, which had the power to injure people for five months. They were ruled by a king, the angel of the Abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek it is Apollyon." It is at the time that he comes up out of the Abyss that he kills the two witnesses.

At the sounding of the 5th trumpet/1st woe, an angel falls to the earth having the key to the Abyss and opens it, releasing those demonic beings resembling locusts. Their king is that angel of the Abyss (abaddon/apollyon), who will be the power behind the antichrist/man of lawlessness who will be a man.

Maybe you could post a scripture for that second sentence. The Beast is a man. In one scripture in Daniel the Beast speaks of a Kingdom, otherwise, every reference to him is of a man, including his number. Apollyon, or Abaddon, by all accounts is an angel. In Revelation 9 he is a "star", he is in heaven, his key does not let men out, but it releases tormenting locusts - things with wings, and he does not come out of the bottomless pit. He comes from heaven. He is king of the bottomless pit. Since 1st and 2nd Peter, and Jude refer to angels in a subterranean prison, their chief would most likely be another fallen angel - but one who did not mix with women.

But, as I said, I would not go to the barricades about this matter. There is not enough information. It should not be important for a Christian as Luke 21:36 says, he should be found worthy to "stand before the Son of man" (in the clouds). And it is not a crucial doctrine. But it's nice to discuss. I guess we'll know when the time comes.

 

[ewq1938]

A fallen angel is not given the key to the pit. Only a Godly angels has that key and still has it in Revelation 20.

Maybe you could post a scripture for that second sentence. The Beast is a man. In one scripture in Daniel the Beast speaks of a Kingdom, otherwise, every reference to him is of a man, including his number. Apollyon, or Abaddon, by all accounts is an angel. In Revelation 9 he is a "star", he is in heaven, his key does not let men out, but it releases tormenting locusts - things with wings, and he does not come out of the bottomless pit. He comes from heaven. He is king of the bottomless pit. Since 1st and 2nd Peter, and Jude refer to angels in a subterranean prison, their chief would most likely be another fallen angel - but one who did not mix with women.

But, as I said, I would not go to the barricades about this matter. There is not enough information. It should not be important for a Christian as Luke 21:36 says, he should be found worthy to "stand before the Son of man" (in the clouds). And it is not a crucial doctrine. But it's nice to discuss. I guess we'll know when the time comes.

 

[Corban]

A fallen angel is not given the key to the pit. Only a Godly angels has that key and still has it in Revelation 20.

Revelation 9:1; "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

In my posting # 25 I made a case for the bottomless pit containing Hades and Tartaroo - one a place of the SOULS of men who wait for resurrection, and one a place of SPIRITS who were disobedient at the time of Noah and mixed with women. The evidence, what little there is, shows that an angel who FELL "WAS GIVEN" the key to the bottomless pit. And he opens the door that lets FLYING THINGS free to torment men without killing them. Without laying forth doctrine, it is reasonable to assume that this FALLEN angel had the key to Tartaroo, which is in the bottomless pit. But later, the key that "WAS GIVEN" is reclaimed by Michael, or whoever the angel of Revelation 20 is, and he open Tartaroo to receive Satan for 1,000 years. Later, Satan is released from this prison and stirs the rebellion of Magog. then, just a little while later, all the fallen angels should be released to face the White Throne.

But if you differ, and have a good reason, I will consider. But let us be precise with the words of scripture. One angel, who FELL from heaven "IS GIVEN" the key. This implies that he is not POSSESSOR of the key, but only receives it temporarily for God's councils to be fulfilled. The other angel of Revelation 20, is CUSTODIAN of the key and uses it twice in the Millennium - at the beginning, and at the end. He is NOT "given" the key. He "HAS" the key.

But, hey brother, this is not an important doctrine as it should not affect us Christians. Let's wait and see how it pans out.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 9:1; "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

This falling is a physical thing not a moral one. The same angel has the key and locks Satan in the pit:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

What you propose is the same as giving a prisoner the key to his own prison.

 

[Corban]

This falling is a physical thing not a moral one. The same angel has the key and locks Satan in the pit:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

What you propose is the same as giving a prisoner the key to his own prison.

You did not read my words. I said that Apollyon was a fallen angel but not one of those who mixed with women at Noah's time. According 1st and 2nd Peter, and Jude, Tartaroo contains those angels who "did not keep their first estate" (Jude 6).

Maybe you can do a word study on the word "fall" in Revelation 9:1. It means to lose authority.

 

[ewq1938]

You did not read my words. I said that Apollyon was a fallen angel but not one of those who mixed with women at Noah's time. According 1st and 2nd Peter, and Jude, Tartaroo contains those angels who "did not keep their first estate" (Jude 6).

Maybe you can do a word study on the word "fall" in Revelation 9:1. It means to lose authority.

This is a falling star also known as a shooting star. The falling is simply movement from heaven down to Earth. It's not a moral fall like you are claiming.

G4098
πίπτω, πέτω
piptō petō
pip'-to, pet'-o
The first is a reduplicated and contracted form of the second (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to G4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally of figuratively): - fail, fall (down), light on.
Total KJV occurrences: 90

 

[Corban]

This is a falling star also known as a shooting star. The falling is simply movement from heaven down to Earth. It's not a moral fall like you are claiming.

G4098
πίπτω, πέτω
piptō petō
pip'-to, pet'-o
The first is a reduplicated and contracted form of the second (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to G4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally of figuratively): - fail, fall (down), light on.
Total KJV occurrences: 90

Here is Vine on the word "pipto":
3. pipto (πίπτω, 4098), “to fall,” is used of the law of God in its smallest detail, in the sense of losing its authority or ceasing to have force, Luke 16:17. In 1 Cor. 13:8 it is used of love (some mss. have ekpipto, “to fall off”). See FALL.

(Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words)

 

[ewq1938]

That's in relation to the law losing it's authority in Luke 16:17not how the word is used in Revelation 9.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Here is Vine on the word "pipto":
3. pipto (πίπτω, 4098), “to fall,” is used of the law of God in its smallest detail, in the sense of losing its authority or ceasing to have force, Luke 16:17. In 1 Cor. 13:8 it is used of love (some mss. have ekpipto, “to fall off”). See FALL.

(Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words)

 

[Truth7t7]

Nobody said anything about annihilation. You have created your own thesis and then answered it as if it was somebody else's. Why not answer my arguments in posting # 7 and # 20?

Do you believe the wicked enters a place of torment (Hell) awaiting the future final judgement?

 

[Truth7t7]

That is wrong. The Millennium happens after Christ returns. The Heavens and Earth are not dissolved by fire at that time either.

There will be no Millennium,Jesus returns in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Truth7t7]

Scripture refutes what you say..

Revelation‬ ‭19:15‬ ‭
From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
‭‭​

Revelation‬ ‭20:4, 6‬ ‭
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.​

‭‭


What’s this?

Rule them with a rod of iron?

Not sitting on a earthly throne, amongst mortal humans.

The Lords going to destroy them as a potter rules over his clay (Destruction)

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[presidente]

All the time unfortunately...
Now what I find interesting is how Paul and others when commenting on Paul's letters can't seem to make heads or tails out of the primary condition of Heaven: timelessness.

And I understand that it's a very difficult concept to wrap your head around.

Time itself is a construct that God has made and placed the universe inside of.
Heaven isn't in this universe. But we do go to Heaven when we die physically.
But that doesn't mean that we are really dead...just gone from here. We have gone into the realm of an ever present now...

Think of time as the length of a room...which one gets there first is more of a question of where they popped into the room they arrived and not when.
In fact the really mind bending reality is that you are there in Heaven now. Because of the mechanics/laws of time you can't actually experience that, nor has your new heavenly body any contact with your earthly body.

I hear Christians say God exists outside of time,, etc.. I cannot find this idea in scripture. I sudpect the idea comes more from apoloceticists ruminating on the theories of modern physics and philosophical ideas derived from it. If there is some scripture that supports this idea, I would be interested in seeing it. I would be interested in seeing scripture that supports this idea of yours that heaven is timelessness.