Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

cv5 · Jan 21, 2021

Agreed.

They are shown saying (in 5:9) "hast redeemed US [G2248 - hemas] to God by thy blood out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"

Here's the Greek (for Rev5:9) showing at BlueLetterBible - Revelation 5 (KJV) - And they sung a new (blueletterbible.org) showing them saying "us [G2248 - hemas]"... "hast redeemed US...".

(Also showing at BlueLetterBible is this same word used 3x in a similarly-worded couple of verses, in 1:5 and in 1:6 - Revelation 1 (KJV) - And from Jesus Christ who (blueletterbible.org) )

--of the 24 total manuscripts available (of the Greek) of Revelation chpt 5, 23 of them have it as "US [G2248 - hemas]" and only ONE manuscript leaves it blank [/untranslated].

(The ONE manuscript [of 24 total manuscripts (Rev5)] that leaves it blank/untranslated is the "Codex Alexandrinus". Some surmise that it was left blank/untranslated because of its positioning/placement, where the column break should have had the next word at the top be this word, but [as they surmise] the copyist inadvertently dropped it altogether in this particular manuscript... where the word is present in ALL 23 of the other manuscripts. This seems beyond dispute, to me... meaning, the fact that 23 of the 24 say "US" [and in the only other manuscript, is left blank/untranslated, aside from whatever was the reason for it...])

Absolutely correct sir.

CS1 · Jan 21, 2021

BenjaminN said:

selling a book

Scribe · Jan 21, 2021

cv5 said:

TheDivineWatermark said:

That's Good Stuff!!!

Did you also notice that the four beasts sang these lyrics with the 24?

The 24 are symbolic of the 24 governors that were over the entire priesthood. (1 Chron 24) and therefore represent not just 24 but all those redeemed saints that they represent.

AND SO ALSO THE FOUR BEASTS are symbolic! We know this because of who they say that they are in this song. They are not cherubim, seraphim, as many supposed simply because they appear similar to those glorious creatures that appear in the OT.

The reason that redeemed saints are revealed in symbolic representation here is that the symbolism gives us a revelation or a peek at the glorious inheritance that await us.

When Isaiah had his vision of the Glory of the Lord in Is 6 He saw cherubim that sang Holy, Holy, Holy, like these do in Rev 4:8. When these 4 creatures sing "You have redeemed us by your blood" we suddenly realize that they are not cherubim. They are redeemed saints. They are revealed in this symbolic representation to show us that the proximity to the very Throne of Almighty God that was once allowed only by Cherubim we inherit! This is what Jesus accomplished for us. This is how holy we have become in His sight!

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Now even though other English translations say "people" and "they" instead of "us" and "we" I think that the KJV translated it correctly and that the manuscripts support this. But I am not a Greek Scholar or a textual critic. I would love to hear a scholarly presentation as to why the other English translations chose to change it. Was it because they could not get past the idea of the 4 creatures being angelic and therefore not theologically possible to sing "You have redeemed us by your blood from every tribe, nation, etc...?" Or were there manuscripts that they considered older and more authoritative. I have a suspicion that it was the former.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 21, 2021

Scribe said:

I've read / heard that, since v.10 shows variants in the mss (some saying "us/we" and some saying "them/they" in verse 10), that where they were convinced it was "they/them" (in v.10), they changed v.9 so as to AGREE with v.10.

Here's a short video by Dr David Hocking (mainly covering v.9, as we were talking about here)... don't let his brief "brain-stumble" at the 4:57-5:07-min-mark throw you off (he rectifies it, but it still seems to throw some ppl to whom I've shown this, lol)...

Revelation 5 - Rapture Before The Tribulation. David Hocking (Part 2) - YouTube [9:15-min video on the "US" in Rev5:9 mss]

I'm not against the idea of this being a kind of "antiphonal singing"... as we see more and more "voices" ADDED the further down in the passage you go...

...and "the 24 courses" in 1Chron24 is not the only mention of "24"... there's also a mention of "24" in 1Chron25 (the divisions of the singers... with the mention there also of "harps" and "cymbals" and "psalteries [/earthen vessels]") ; but also another mention of "24" (in a round about way) when you examine the names (hooked up together) listed in an early chpt of Numbers (for a specific purpose)... I'll have to go look WHICH CHPT that was exactly... I can't recall it atm... (will try to go find that within the 5-min EDIT time... LOL)

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 21, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Well, it took me long enough, eh? = D

Found it:

Numbers 1:3,5-15,16 - *TWENTY-FOUR NAMES*

V.3,4 - "From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies. And WITH YOU there shall be A MAN OF every tribe; every one HEAD of the house of his fathers."

V.5 thru V.15 [...<snip>... (you can look up this LISTING OF 24 NAMES yourself; note there are two instances in v.10)...]

V.16 - "These were the renowned of the congregation, PRINCES/LEADERS/RULERS of the tribes of their fathers, HEADS of the thousands of Israel."

[SEE ALSO Numbers 10:4 (re: how the SOUNDS/PATTERNS of the Trumpets were to be blown, for differing PURPOSES)- "4 But if ONLY ONE is sounded, then the LEADERS/ PRINCES/RULERS, the HEADS of the clans of Israel, are to gather BEFORE/UNTO YOU."]

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 21, 2021

^ Just wanted to add a couple commentary... brief comments... on the 1Chron25 section of "24" -

[quoting Wm Kelly]

"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."

--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25

...see also the following commentary excerpt:

[quoting Gaebelein]

"The Twenty-Four Divisions [Courses] of Musicians" - 1 Chronicles 25

"As we have seen before, Asaph [means "gatherer"], Jeduthun (Ethan) [means "praising"] and Heman [means "faithful"] were the master leaders in song and music; their service was eminently spiritual, for we read “they should prophesy.” Heman especially is called the king’s seer in the words of God. This is a significant expression. How much there is in what is termed “worship”, which has nothing whatever of the words of God in it. In most of the songs used in our times there is little of the words of God and many contain unscriptural and sentimental phrases. Israel’s worship in song and music was to be spiritual, prophesying and in the words of God. Christian worship is not less. It is to be in spirit and in truth. “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3:16). Asaph had four sons, Jeduthun six, and Heman fourteen, equal to twenty-four. They were divided into twenty-four courses of twelve men each, equal to 288, who served a week in turn. The names of six of the sons of Heman form, in the Hebrew, a complete sentence. Giddalti, Romamti-ezer, joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir and Mahazioth (verse 4) may be rendered in English:

"I have magnified and I have raised up help;

Sitting in trouble, I have spoken oracles plentiful.

"This fact has aroused the suspicion of the critics regarding the genuineness of this entire list of names. “Now this sentence,” saith a critic, “is either an obscure and ancient prayer which hath been mistaken for a list of names by the compiler, or else the compiler has purposely strung together those significant names in such order as to form a sentence” (W.R. Harvey-Jellic). But it is not the mistake of the compiler or an invention. We read that God gave to Heman these sons and the pious Israelite named his sons so as to produce this meaning. There are many such messages in names throughout the Bible. (See annotations on Genesis 5.)"

--Arno C Gaebelein, on 1 Chronicles 25

[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine; parentheses original]

Scribe · Jan 21, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Thanks for all the information. I love this particular exegesis. (Rev 4-5)

I had to look up the definition of antiphonal LOL.

What I see here it that the 4 creatures and 24 elders are singing together the same lyrics.

the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

However the angels that start singing after verse 10 do not sing the same song. They sing different lyrics. Words that angels can sing but they don't say that they are redeemed by the blood as the 4 creatures and 24 elders sang.

11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Scribe · Jan 21, 2021

Scribe said:

I do agree that the 4 creatures and the 24 elders are probably representative of the dead in Christ raised and the raptured saints taken up right before the Great Tribulation (right before the opening of the seals) and they inherit things that later saints coming through the tribulation do not inherit. That there are different levels of rewards. Those that are ready at the rapture are going to find out that all their sacrifices to be separate from the world were worth it.

Notice also that it is one of the 4 creatures or one of the 24 elders that says "Come and See" or "Go" depending on the translation, as each seal is opened signifying that they will somehow be partaker with Christ in the unleashing of these judgments upon the world, satan and his kingdom. The saints shall judge the world. They shall be on the side of his throne and rule them with a rod of iron dashing them to pieces like a potters vessel.

Those that come later do not join in this. Only those that were ready and caught up to his throne.

Lisamn · Jan 21, 2021

Scribe said:

I do agree that the 4 creatures and the 24 elders are probably representative of the dead in Christ raised and the raptured saints taken up right before the Great Tribulation (right before the opening of the seals) and they inherit things that later saints coming through the tribulation do not inherit. That there are different levels of rewards. Those that are ready at the rapture are going to find out that all their sacrifices to be separate from the world were worth it.

Why would they be representative of the dead in Christ?

Scribe · Jan 21, 2021

Lisamn said:

The dead in Christ raised. The dead in Christ rise and we which are live are changed and rise up in the clouds to join them to meet the Lord.
These are the redeemed saints that are represented. The rapture includes the Dead in Christ glorified and the living saints changed and glorified without physically dying (sleeping) first.

Lisamn · Jan 21, 2021

Scribe said:

I know about the dead in Christ being raised in the rapture..my question is why do you say the elders and 4 creatures be representative of them?

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 21, 2021

Scribe said:

To be clear, I do not believe in the "partial rapture theory"... I believe "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"), and not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints--who were NOT promised "Rapture").

Also, I've mentioned before how I see the descriptions of the "4 living creatures" to be the SAME as [the banners of] the 4-directional plotment of Israel in OT times... so I believe those relate in some way to that...

And I was just saying, similarly to what Hocking says in the video, that, EVEN IF it were the case that v.10 says "them/they" (whereas v.9 definitely says "US"), this does not CHANGE what v.9 says (it reads "US")... but that there are other ways of explaining why they would say different things between these two verses (he suggests as one possibility [IF that were the case that they are different in each of these two verses] that v.10 could just be an editorial comment ON v.9; OTHERS have suggested that "antiphonal singing" would be an explanation for these being different, and that makes sense to me, since more voices are added further down, as well as different/additional "lyrics," so to speak

). I guess the point I'd make is, that this is no reason to CHANGE the word in verse 9 (simply to "make them agree"), as I see that as only so much human reasoning.

[btw, 1:5 and 1:6 say "us" 3x, in verses which are worded similarly to 5:9]

Interesting topic, to be sure. I appreciate the conversation. = )

BenjaminN · Jan 21, 2021

CS1 said:

Seems like they're selling a book yes, together with the information provided

Scribe · Jan 21, 2021

Lisamn said:

Because they say they are redeemed by the blood of Jesus from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation and shall reign as kings and priests on the earth. This is before the seals are opened and the judgements come forth.

Therefore the theory is that they are the raptured saints. A pre tribulation rapture interpretation. That as John was caught up in the Spirit to witness this that he is witnessing a vision of the caught up church and what they will inherit.

Rev 4:1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Come up here = rapture and "what must take place after this" = after the church age (previous chapters 2 and 3)

I know that it is not conclusive. It is a theory. Currently I lean toward this view.

A very well written scholarly presentation of a pre trib pre millennial interpretation of the book of Revelation is available in the public domain downloadable as a pdf from several site. by Joseph A. Seiss "Apocalypse: Lectures on Revelation" an 800 page commentary of every verse.

I don't agree with every single thing he says but I much of it I do. Even that which I am not sure about he does a good job of presenting why he interprets it the way he does using scripture.

Lisamn · Jan 21, 2021

Scribe said:

Because they say they are redeemed by the blood of Jesus from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation and shall reign as kings and priests on the earth. This is before the seals are opened and the judgements come forth.

Therefore the theory is that they are the raptured saints. A pre tribulation rapture interpretation. That as John was caught up in the Spirit to witness this that he is witnessing a vision of the caught up church and what they will inherit.

Rev 4:1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Come up here = rapture and "what must take place after this" = after the church age (previous chapters 2 and 3)

I know that it is not conclusive. It is a theory. Currently I lean toward this view.

A very well written scholarly presentation of a pre trib pre millennial interpretation of the book of Revelation is available in the public domain downloadable as a pdf from several site. by Joseph A. Seiss "Apocalypse: Lectures on Revelation" an 800 page commentary of every verse.

I don't agree with every single thing he says but I much of it I do. Even that which I am not sure about he does a good job of presenting why he interprets it the way he does using scripture.

Ya I hate John being used as the raptured church when he went there to tell us what God wanted us to know.

I thought the song was a praise song to God not that those people were the raptured...because the raptured don’t show up until later.

Pre trib is a false and deceitful doctrine of demons imo.

CS1 · Jan 21, 2021

BenjaminN said:

it is more conspiracies than truth.

Scribe · Jan 21, 2021

Lisamn said:

It is important to pay attention to what they say. They have been redeemed by his blood. This is before the seals are opened. What is your theory? "A praise song" does not answer the question as to who are these redeemed blood washed saints in heaven that say they will reign as kings and priests on the earth?

Not being convinced that the pre wrath rapture is the correct hermeneutic is understandable. Calling it a doctrine of demons does not fit the category of doctrines of demons. A misinterpretation maybe but I doubt demons want people to live holy lives expecting to be raptured at any moment. Wouldn't a demon be more interested in a doctrine that teaches that one has time to get it right later and can indulge is sin and repent later when they are in the tribulation? So I think it is not necessary to call pretrib or posttrib doctrines of demons. That is just an immature way to discuss different possible interpretations.

I would suspect demons were behind those that think they have it all figured out and everyone else is teaching doctrines of demons. Sort of like throwing a rock into a pack of wild dogs and the one that yelps is the one that got hit.

Absolutely · Jan 21, 2021

Runningman said:

Revelation 20:4-6 is the saints who were killed during the mark of the beast period, so that's during the great tribulation and that they are part of the first resurrection so they can reign in the millennial kingdom.

That doesn't work with pre-tribulation rapture theory because 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says that the dead in Christ are raised first at the rapture which is when Jesus returns.

You can't have your first resurrection pre-tribulation and also during the great tribulation. (This is where mid-trib theory comes from btw)

Read context of Revelation 20:4-6 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Post-tribulation solves the conundrum of pre-tribulation because in 2 Peter 3:10-13, at the return of Christ, the new heaven and new earth come after the old are destroyed.

So it's in this order for it to make sense:
1. Great tribulation
2. Jesus returns
3. First resurrection and rapture and beginning of millennial kingdom/new heaven/new earth

Rapture verses factored in changes everything

Absolutely · Jan 21, 2021

Runningman said:

Revelation 20:4-6 is the saints who were killed during the mark of the beast period, so that's during the great tribulation and that they are part of the first resurrection so they can reign in the millennial kingdom.

That doesn't work with pre-tribulation rapture theory because 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says that the dead in Christ are raised first at the rapture which is when Jesus returns.

You can't have your first resurrection pre-tribulation and also during the great tribulation. (This is where mid-trib theory comes from btw)

Read context of Revelation 20:4-6 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Post-tribulation solves the conundrum of pre-tribulation because in 2 Peter 3:10-13, at the return of Christ, the new heaven and new earth come after the old are destroyed.

So it's in this order for it to make sense:
1. Great tribulation
2. Jesus returns
3. First resurrection and rapture and beginning of millennial kingdom/new heaven/new earth

Rev 14?

The dead in Christ rise after the living?

BenjaminN · Jan 21, 2021

CS1 said:

Are you saying that deep state United States of America is not Mystery Babylon?

Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

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