Was Jesus the first man?

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williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
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I am not a modalist.
Show me anywhere in scripture where it states the Word is God, but God is not the Word

That is what she posted

And where did the word person come from to describe God?
Had you read my earlier posts, you would have ran across the part where I say (referring to John 1:1),

Notice that the text speaks of the Word existing “with” God. The term used here for “with” is the Greek word πρὸς (pros), which, when followed by a noun in the accusative case, speaks of face-to-face communion, interaction. One does not need to leave the first chapter of John to find examples in which πρὸς signifies a person near or moving towards another person (e.g., 1:29, 42, 47). Of course, this comports well with John 17:5, where Jesus speaks of His pre-existence with the Father. What’s interesting, is that this πρὸς τὸν θεὸν (John 1:1b) language or some slight variation thereof, is used throughout the Testaments — some (17) occurrences of the phrase found within the NT, according to NA28 (Jn. 1:1, 2, 13:3; 1 Jn 3:21; Rev. 12:5, 13:6; Acts 4:24, 12:5, 24:16; Romans 5:1, 10:1, 15:30; 2 Cor. 3:4, 13:7; Phillippians 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:8, 9) — and another 20+ examples in the Genesis and Exodus accounts of the Greek OT/LXX (Gen. 17:18, 18:17, 18:31, 20:17, 24:49, 24:54, 24:46; Exodus 2:23, 3:11, 3:13, 8:25, 8:26, 9:29, 10:18, 18:19, 19:8, 19:21, 19:23, 19:24, 24:1, 24:2, 32:30). In each of these occurrences (aside from the occurrences where the neuter article τὰ is present), they explicitly refer to distinct individuals in some form of communication with one another.
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
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Keep in mind that in 1:1c, θεὸς is anarthrous. It is not stating that the Word is the one who He is "with" (John 1:1b), but stresses the qualities of the Word.

Had John wished to identify the λόγος the same person whom He was "with" (John 1:1b) then he would have used the articular θεὸς. The way John has written John 1:1c makes for a type of distinction between the λόγος and τὸν θεὸν that does not suite the Unitarian (Modalist or otherwise) proposition.

Take for example John 3:6,

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

The idea behind this has absolutely nothing to do with identification of any sort (“the spirit,” “a spirit”), but everything to do with that of predication. More specifically, the nouns (“flesh,” “spirit”) here function in a purely qualitative sense, without a definite or indefinite semantic force. The context of the passage in view is about the inherent nature of sinful flesh (John 3:6a) in contrast to the new nature of man in the process of regeneration (John 3:6b). Likewise, a similar idea being portrayed is found in 1 John 1:5 (“God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all”), where it is God's essence and nature that is being described in contrast to “darkness.” That is, God has all the qualities, and attributes of light – He is just, holy, and good – therefore, light is an attribute/characteristic inhering within God. Further examples include, but are not limited to, John 6:63 (“The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life”), 1 John 4:8 (“…because God is love”), Matthew 12:8 (“For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath” [not “the Lord of the Sabbath,” or “a Lord of the Sabbath”]), et al.

With that being said, the Trinitarian approach to John 1:1 does not emphasize the identity of the Word (thus, the reason for the anarthrous θεὸς), but stresses the nature of the Word. Call attention to what Henry Alford, a 19th c. Anglican theologian wrote in his commentary on this passage,

“The omission of the article before θεὸς is not mere usage; it could not have been here expressed, whatever place the word might hold in the sentence. ὁ λόγος ἦν ὁ θεὸς would destroy the idea of the λόγος altogether. θεὸς must then be taken as implying God, in substance and essence, -not ὁ θεὸς, ‘the Father,’ in Person. . . . as in σὰρξ ἐγένετο [John 1:14], σὰρξ expresses that state into which the Divine Word entered by a definite act, so in θεὸς ἦν [John 1.1c], θεὸς expresses that essence which was His ἐν ἀρχῇ [“In the beginning”]: -that He was very God.”—Henry Alford

The point Alford is driving at here in his comparison of vv. 1 (θεὸς ἦν), and 14 (σὰρξ ἐγένετο), is not only are the two parallel passages conveying similar thought, but John’s placement of the noun before the verb in each passage is significant in that it stresses the qualities or nature of the subject. The positioning of θεὸς before the verb ἦν is what is known as a preverbal predicate nominative. Since John has identified ὁ λόγος (“the Word”) as the subject of the verse, this means that θεὸς in John 1.1b is a subject complement which further identifies the subject. In other words, θεὸς serves to describe the nature and essence of the Word, and this is precisely what we as Trinitarians believe. Not that the Word’s identity is being stressed, rather, it is the intrinsic nature of the Logos that is being portrayed here. All the qualities, attributes, and nature of God – everything that makes God, God – the Word also possesses. This text then, is teaching the equality of nature between the Father, and the Son (cf. Hebrews 1:3).
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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This is incorrect, God is not divisible.
The Word is God and God is the Word
God is not polytheistic.
This is incorrect.

There is only one God. True.

The reason the two 'reversed' statements above are not equally "assignable" is that 'God' refers to all-that-is-God and 'Word' does not.

In 'identity' terms, there is much more to 'God' than 'Word'; albeit, 'The Word is God.' is a correct statement.

Please read the OP of the following thread before you respond:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...of-god-word-father-son-and-the-trinity.72792/
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Sorry - not a correct answer.

These two statements are not saying the same [identical] thing:

The Word is God.
God is the Word.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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equality of nature - yes
equality of identity - no
 
Jan 15, 2021
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I suggest that Vicky’s view of the Word is heavily influenced by her doctrine of God (which in my estimation, is borderline Unitarian). There is no doubt that she thinks Jesus is God incarnate, but it would appear that she also adheres to a form of incarnational Sonship, which is essentially the belief that the Son only became “the Son” at a point in time (the incarnation). At the very least this could possibly mean that she believes the Word existed eternally alongside the Father in an intimate relationship (as a second person), and would later (at the incarnation) be known to us as “the Son.” However, based off much of what has already been said, I tend to think that is not the case, but opts for a form of Unitarianism (Modalism, specifically) that suggests the Word did not pre-exist with the Father as a second person, but as a type of quality – a plan, decree, or expression in the mind of God – if you will, and that it would be God the Father that would later manifest Himself as “the Son.” Modalism is dependent on incarnational Sonship, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that incarnational Sonship is dependent on Modalism.

What John says about the Word of God correlates/corresponds to much of what Scripture has to say about the Son of God. As I mentioned in post #83, the imagery that John uses in his prologue of the Word parallels other NT themes which speak of the Son. The Son is God’s audible Word; His voice to the world. He communicates God. He speaks as God speaks, hence, He is the Word. And it is in this way that He is intimately connected with God. The Son is the eikon (‘image’) of God, God’s enthroned representative — the very vicar of YHWH. When you see the Son, you see God (John 14:9). He acts as God acts (John 5:28) — in perfect union with God. As the vicar of YHWH, the Word is God’s perfect representative; the perfect reflection of His very being.

As the Word (who came in a “vision” to Samuel) made YHWH known (1 Samuel 3:7-9, 22); so too has the Son made known (or exegeted) the Father (John 1:18). No one has seen God at any time, except through the agency of the Word (who, according to John, is the Son); and He has been doing this throughout the entire history of the human race, since ancient times. John intends his readers to make the referential connection between the Son and this mysterious Word of God figure of the OT.

Whereas John speaks of all things coming into existence “through” the Word (John 1:3), we are elsewhere told that it is “through” the Son that all things came into existence (Hebrews 1:2-3).

In addition, John 1:1c speaks about the equality between the Word, and God (I can go into this further, if need be). In like manner, it is the Son of God who is equal to God (“For this reason they tried all the more to kill Him; not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God,” John 5:18). Jesus’ application of the title “Son of God” carries with it its fair share of nuances, but might I suggest that one of the more prominent nuances in NT usage is an extremely Jewish one? What I mean by that, is that the “Son of God” epithet is used frequently of the Davidic King, who is God’s vicar, God’s “right hand man,” who mediates God’s presence, and is in that sense (by way of extension), “equal with God.” But I also understand that Jesus’ application of such title runs even deeper than that of the Davidic King motif, for even the Jews of Jesus’ day understood Jesus’ application (what I would consider a more personal application), as going beyond the scope of what any man could rightfully claim for themselves without the charge of blasphemy being brought against them (hence the, “you being a man make yourself out to be” tid bit in John 10). In both, John 5 and John 10, Jesus acts as God acts — in inseparable union — “For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, ‘My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.’” Jesus uses the present middle indicative for the word “work,” which indicates a presence of past action still in progress. Just as the sustainer of all things (God the Father) continues to work (throughout history) and is thereby exempt from the rules of the Sabbath, in this same manner, the Son too has been working (hence, 5:18). The Son’s works are co-extensive with the Father’s. Thusly, Jesus’ application of “the Son of God” epithet of Himself, is intrinsically tied (in a facet of ways) to the idea of Him being “one with” and “equal to,” God.
Great comment.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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I must disagree. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is in the context of the Second Coming of Christ and His 1000-year reign.
The context is the resurrection and this is the key to understanding what Paul means by "subdued, subject". The resurrection is where the saved and our Lord Jesus are seen glorified,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. vs.28

Paul is not quoting the O.T.

The passage is not about Adam, nor does it apply to Adam.
I already showed how it does.

Jesus is God in the flesh - and/but - in one particular sense He is "below" God - whereby, as the Son, He must do the will of the Father.
The Word of God is the will of God. Though Jesus appeared as an ordinary man, he was still above all,

He that cometh from above is above all Jn.3:31

Jesus is certainly above Adam.
That was Paul's point. The superiority of Jesus over Adam,

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. vs.22

I believe you are comparing similar phrases in the Bible while not realizing the difference in the context of where those phrases are found.
I'm showing the dual meaning, but where Adam failed, Christ, God in the flesh triumphed,

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. vs.21
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Sorry - not a correct answer.

These two statements are not saying the same [identical] thing:

The Word is God.
God is the Word.
Have you been picking your nose again, Gary?:geek:
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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I love you Gary. I just think that you are far too 'picky' and are making a mountain out a molehill. Jesus told us He was equal to god.

God is Trinity.
Trinity is God.

No need to split nose hairs.

Now let us go back inside and learn from Master William.:)
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Yes. Fully human, fully divine at conception.
Amen! And fully divine when He made the Universe with His Father and fully divine as He sits at the right hand of His Father now and forever.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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Phil 2v5-11: "Let the same disposition, attitude, purpose and mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who existed in the essential form of God, having always been God by nature. He did not deem His own equality with God a prize to be clung to, but emptied Himself and became like other men, taking upon Him the form of a slave, and became obedient unto death upon the cross for our salvation. Because of this astounding sacrificial love God has highly exalted Him and given Him a Name which is above every name, and that at His Name every knee is going to bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Yahweh to the glory of the Father."