SALVATION ,FORGIVENESS AND WORKS QUESTION

[Magenta]

To be saved, you need to want to be saved from your sins.

That is not what my Bible says. My bible says:

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 10:9

 

[Deuteronomy]

That is not what my Bible says. My bible says:

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 10:9

Hello sister, Jesus' saving us from our sins is a big part of our salvation too, isn't it (from both the power that sin held over us in this life, and from the penalty of our sins in the age to come) The angel of the Lord seems to bear this out for us in Matthew 1:18-21 (see too passages/verses like: John 1:29; Acts 5:31, 13:38-39).

Perhaps I'm not thinking completely correctly about this (or am actually saying something different that you are) If so, please let me know.

Thanks

~Deut
p.s. - one way or the other, it seems to me that the passage from Matthew 1 (at least v20-21) might make an excellent addition to your beautiful Scripture in Art collection, since in includes the angel, Mary, Joseph and the Baby

1 Peter 3​

18 Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.​

​

 

[phil36]

We are saved by GOD's Mercy and through the work Jesus has done on the Cross, and not by our works We also have to repent of our sins and be baptised . Will we be still forgiven, if we don't forgive someone who hurt us?
If this a part of us being saved, isn't this our work too?

Its a good question. Forgiving someone who has hurt us can be hard thing to do. But forgiving others is not a 'work' in the sense that it is something we have to do to BE saved. However, it is a sign that we are already saved. That doesn't make it easy to do and that the hurt and pain are not present. But we are to forgive as God forgave us. Doesn't mean you forget but you can bury it. It's hard to say what to do after that and it depends on the situation.

We know that God requires us and permits us repentance to be saved and we should be like like Christ, and forgive others...even though it may take a while, it can be hard. In the end it will bring you peace.

If anyone is in this position. Bring it to God in earnest and honest prayer (he already knows) and ask for his help to walk you through a trying time. Prayer is key in our walk with God.

 

[Magenta]

Hello sister, Jesus' saving us from our sins is a big part of our salvation too, isn't it (from both the power that sin held over us in this life, and from the penalty of our sins in the age to come) The angel of the Lord seems to bear this out for us in Matthew 1:18-21 (see too passages/verses like: John 1:29; Acts 5:31, 13:38-39).

Perhaps I'm not thinking completely correctly about this (or am actually saying something different that you are) If so, please let me know.

Thanks

~Deut
p.s. - one way or the other, it seems to me that the passage from Matthew 1 (at least v20-21) might make an excellent addition to your beautiful Scripture in Art collection, since in includes the angel, Mary, Joseph and the Baby

1 Peter 3​

18 Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.​

​

Of course we are saved from our sins, but that is not what was said

What was said was needed for salvation = "want to be saved."

The phrase is not even in the Bible! I checked multiple translations

 

[Deuteronomy]

...it is a sign that we are already saved.

Agreed Just like our grieving over our sins and seeking to be forgiven of them whenever we commit them is a sign as well, our choice to regularly forgive others, and/or to always be prepared to do so .. e.g. Luke 17:3-4, is something that speaks loudly of who/what we truly are (because of Him).

I love your Matthew Henry quote

In the end it will bring you peace.

Should we not be principally concerned about the peace of the one who sinned against us, and his/her relationship with God instead, the one who (very likely) needs to know God and be at peace with Him far more than we do (since we are already believers)

Beyond that, I believe that much harm has been done ~within~ the family of God whenever we (the one who is ~sinned against~ by a brother or sister in Christ) refuse to obey the Lord's command to us .. see again below Luke 17:3, because He clearly wants "reconciliation" as the end of things between us, His children, not simply a silent type of "forgiveness" (if you can even call it that) that looks to our own needs alone.

Bring it to God in earnest and honest prayer (he already knows) and ask for his help to walk you through a trying time. Prayer is key in our walk with God.

Agreed

~Deut

Luke 17​

3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.​

4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”​

​

 

[phil36]

Should we not be principally concerned about the peace of the one who sinned against us, and his/her relationship with God instead, the one who (very likely) needs to know God and be at peace with Him far more than we do (since we are already believers)

Beyond that, I believe that much harm has been done ~within~ the family of God whenever we (the one who is ~sinned against~ by a brother or sister in Christ) refuse to obey the Lord's command to us .. see again below Luke 17:3, because He clearly wants "reconciliation" as the end of things between us, His children, not simply a silent type of "forgiveness" (if you can even call it that) that looks to our own needs alone.




~Deut

Luke 17​

3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.​

4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”​

​

Hi Dueteronomy,

I would think that as Christians we would be concerned of the souls of all people.. I don't believe that you can be really be concerned about reconciling the person who has hurt and abused you and caused real pain unless you first forgive them. Its an impossibility! You need that forgiveness and the peace it brings between you and God. And then if its possible to reconcile then do so.

Again i personally believe that unless you can forgive a person then you can't honestly with full conscious really reconcile.

 

[throughfaith]

Hello Throughfaith, the new birth is a part of the adoption process.

Ephesians 1​

4 He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love​

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,​

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.​

Wait? What V23 is not the only place that our adoption as God's children is talked about in the Bible (obviously). In fact, let's take a look at another one of the passages that talks about our adoption (the preceding passage in Romans 8) to see what it has to say.

Romans 8​

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—​

13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.​

14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are ~sons of God~.​

15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”​

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that ~we are~ children of God,​

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.​

Just like we are saved from the moment that we first believe .. e.g. John 5:24, we also become God's own sons and daughters by adoption at that very same moment. This is why, from that moment on, the Bible declares that "we are (present tense), the sons of God", that we are now able to "we cry out" (present tense) to God as our "Abba! Father!", and why the "Spirit Himself testifies (present tense) that we are (present tense) the children of God" (see again Romans 8:12-17 above).

This however, is simply the beginning of the story, not the end of it (for both our salvation and our adoption). For that we need to move ahead to the next passage in Romans 8, specifically to v23.

One of my commentaries on Romans has this to say (in part) about v23 and adoption (all of my commentaries come to the same basic conclusions, just FYI).

The “adoption” that we are said already to possess (Romans 8:14-17), is here made the object of our hope ( in v23). Christians, at the moment of justification, are adopted into God’s family; but this adoption is incomplete and partial until we are finally made like the Son of God himself (v. 29). This final element in our adoption is “the redemption of our bodies.” “Redemption” shares with “adoption” the (Pauline) “already-not yet” tension that pervades his theology, for the redemption can be pictured both as past and as future.​

~Deut

A person is ' adopted ' when the process is complete. No one says " im partially adopted. Besides this is not the point . The Holy Spirit ( SPIRIT OF !!! ) is the guarantee UNTIL The adoption. We become a child of God ,not through a western adoption agency into " the family of God " no We know WHAT the adoption means in a biblical sense if we ignore this endearing idea and read Romans 8.23 . Its THE ...REDEMPTION!! OF !!! THE !! BODY !!!!!!! I believe the bible on this . So now we know what the adoption is and WHEN it is . Now the other verses about the adoption makes sense. And predestination makes sense. Cakvinism has this backwards .

 

[throughfaith]

That's certainly an interesting conclusion to come to, but it has several problems.

First and foremost is the fact that the OT doesn't mention God as "Our Father", so the Jews of the 1st Century (and earlier) would have had little to no sense of Him as such.

Also, the Lord was speaking to a large group of His followers when He gave them this example of prayer to use, thus necessitating His use of the plural, "our"/"you"/"your", etc., in His teaching in Matthew 6 (the "Lord's Prayer" is meant as a model for both corporate AND individual prayer, but I believe that it was principally given for individuals to use).

Within the prayer He instructed us to pray for His Father's continued provision of our personal and daily needs (e.g. "give us this day our daily bread",) as well for the forgiveness of our sins, and why we, as individuals, should not expect the ongoing forgiveness of our sins against Him if/when we refuse to forgive others of their sins against us ("forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" .. see too Matthew 18:35).

As an aide to this discussion, here's the Lord's prayer from Matthew's Gospel (with the 2 qualifying verses that follow it).

Matthew 6​

9 Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. ​

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. ​

11 Give us this day our daily bread. ​

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. ​

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.​

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: ​

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

Sadly, that is an incorrect conjecture on your part. The folks at GotQuestions.org seem to generate their answers from the Bible (not from one systematic theology or another) and because they do, they provide us with a great/basic/introductory resource for Bible-based answers to our theological/religious questions online.

For what it's worth, here's what GotQuestions.org thinks about Arminianism and Calvinism (I will also include the last paragraph from the video below it for anyone who is interested, as they state which "systematic theology" they believe to be the correct one in that paragraph).

.
​

Here's the last paragraph from the video.

So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.​

​

​

Granted, what they teach does not support the systematic theology that you've created for yourself, Througfaith (which seems to be a kind of Antinomian/Pelagian "sandwich" of sorts .. perhaps we should refer to it as, "Throughfaithism", from now on ), but that hardly makes what they are teaching incorrect (at least, not generally speaking, anyway).

~Deut[/QUOTE]
Cavinism is Arminism . Ariminsm is calvinism. It should never be Calvinism v Arminsm . Its an in house squabble . Its all from the same faulty pot .

 

[throughfaith]

That's certainly an interesting conclusion to come to, but it has several problems.

First and foremost is the fact that the OT doesn't mention God as "Our Father", so the Jews of the 1st Century (and earlier) would have had little to no sense of Him as such.

Also, the Lord was speaking to a large group of His followers when He gave them this example of prayer to use, thus necessitating His use of the plural, "our"/"you"/"your", etc., in His teaching in Matthew 6 (the "Lord's Prayer" is meant as a model for both corporate AND individual prayer, but I believe that it was principally given for individuals to use).

Within the prayer He instructed us to pray for His Father's continued provision of our personal and daily needs (e.g. "give us this day our daily bread",) as well for the forgiveness of our sins, and why we, as individuals, should not expect the ongoing forgiveness of our sins against Him if/when we refuse to forgive others of their sins against us ("forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" .. see too Matthew 18:35).

As an aide to this discussion, here's the Lord's prayer from Matthew's Gospel (with the 2 qualifying verses that follow it).

Matthew 6​

9 Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. ​

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. ​

11 Give us this day our daily bread. ​

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. ​

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.​

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: ​

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

Sadly, that is an incorrect conjecture on your part. The folks at GotQuestions.org seem to generate their answers from the Bible (not from one systematic theology or another) and because they do, they provide us with a great/basic/introductory resource for Bible-based answers to our theological/religious questions online.

For what it's worth, here's what GotQuestions.org thinks about Arminianism and Calvinism (I will also include the last paragraph from the video below it for anyone who is interested, as they state which "systematic theology" they believe to be the correct one in that paragraph).

.
​

Here's the last paragraph from the video.

So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.​

​

​

Granted, what they teach does not support the systematic theology that you've created for yourself, Througfaith (which seems to be a kind of Antinomian/Pelagian "sandwich" of sorts .. perhaps we should refer to it as, "Throughfaithism", from now on ), but that hardly makes what they are teaching incorrect (at least, not generally speaking, anyway).

~Deut[/QUOTE] Before the cross its still the OT . So Jesus tells the jews how to pray in this context.

 

[Blik]

Its a good question. Forgiving someone who has hurt us can be hard thing to do. But forgiving others is not a 'work' in the sense that it is something we have to do to BE saved. However, it is a sign that we are already saved. That doesn't make it easy to do and that the hurt and pain are not present. But we are to forgive as God forgave us. Doesn't mean you forget but you can bury it. It's hard to say what to do after that and it depends on the situation.

We know that God requires us and permits us repentance to be saved and we should be like like Christ, and forgive others...even though it may take a while, it can be hard. In the end it will bring you peace.

If anyone is in this position. Bring it to God in earnest and honest prayer (he already knows) and ask for his help to walk you through a trying time. Prayer is key in our walk with God.

How the Lord tells us to understand works has been such a controversy, I so wish we could all agree on one way to see it, and that way be the way the Lord tells us to understand it.

The misunderstanding is the controversy seems to revolve around the fact that we are only saved by faith. If we could save ourselves by works we would be like God, only God can do this. It is also true that we belong to the Lord.

• Romans 14:8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. If we live, it’s to honor the Lord.

If the Lord is our master, we can't also be mastered by sin. We are told we can't have two masters. If we live for the Lord then everything we do is to be true to Him, in other words we are to work for the Lord.

We are not to say to the Lord that if you won't save me when I work for salvation then I won't even think about working. After we understand that God saves us through faith, then we think about working for our master who created us and who we belong to.

Our Lord and Master has told us that if we want Him to forgive us, then we must forgive others. Those are words from our master and any other facts about works simply don't count.

 

[throughfaith]

That's certainly an interesting conclusion to come to, but it has several problems.

First and foremost is the fact that the OT doesn't mention God as "Our Father", so the Jews of the 1st Century (and earlier) would have had little to no sense of Him as such.

Also, the Lord was speaking to a large group of His followers when He gave them this example of prayer to use, thus necessitating His use of the plural, "our"/"you"/"your", etc., in His teaching in Matthew 6 (the "Lord's Prayer" is meant as a model for both corporate AND individual prayer, but I believe that it was principally given for individuals to use).

Within the prayer He instructed us to pray for His Father's continued provision of our personal and daily needs (e.g. "give us this day our daily bread",) as well for the forgiveness of our sins, and why we, as individuals, should not expect the ongoing forgiveness of our sins against Him if/when we refuse to forgive others of their sins against us ("forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" .. see too Matthew 18:35).

As an aide to this discussion, here's the Lord's prayer from Matthew's Gospel (with the 2 qualifying verses that follow it).

Matthew 6​

9 Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. ​

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. ​

11 Give us this day our daily bread. ​

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. ​

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.​

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: ​

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

Sadly, that is an incorrect conjecture on your part. The folks at GotQuestions.org seem to generate their answers from the Bible (not from one systematic theology or another) and because they do, they provide us with a great/basic/introductory resource for Bible-based answers to our theological/religious questions online.

For what it's worth, here's what GotQuestions.org thinks about Arminianism and Calvinism (I will also include the last paragraph from the video below it for anyone who is interested, as they state which "systematic theology" they believe to be the correct one in that paragraph).

.
​

Here's the last paragraph from the video.

So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.​

​

​

Granted, what they teach does not support the systematic theology that you've created for yourself, Througfaith (which seems to be a kind of Antinomian/Pelagian "sandwich" of sorts .. perhaps we should refer to it as, "Throughfaithism", from now on ), but that hardly makes what they are teaching incorrect (at least, not generally speaking, anyway).

~Deut[/QUOTE]
The OT does mention ' Our Father ' because Matthew 6 is still OT .

 

[throughfaith]

Hello Throughfaith, the new birth is a part of the adoption process.

Ephesians 1​

4 He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love​

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,​

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.​

Wait? What V23 is not the only place that our adoption as God's children is talked about in the Bible (obviously). In fact, let's take a look at another one of the passages that talks about our adoption (the preceding passage in Romans 8) to see what it has to say.

Romans 8​

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—​

13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.​

14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are ~sons of God~.​

15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”​

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that ~we are~ children of God,​

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.​

Just like we are saved from the moment that we first believe .. e.g. John 5:24, we also become God's own sons and daughters by adoption at that very same moment. This is why, from that moment on, the Bible declares that "we are (present tense), the sons of God", that we are now able to "we cry out" (present tense) to God as our "Abba! Father!", and why the "Spirit Himself testifies (present tense) that we are (present tense) the children of God" (see again Romans 8:12-17 above).

This however, is simply the beginning of the story, not the end of it (for both our salvation and our adoption). For that we need to move ahead to the next passage in Romans 8, specifically to v23.

One of my commentaries on Romans has this to say (in part) about v23 and adoption (all of my commentaries come to the same basic conclusions, just FYI).

The “adoption” that we are said already to possess (Romans 8:14-17), is here made the object of our hope ( in v23). Christians, at the moment of justification, are adopted into God’s family; but this adoption is incomplete and partial until we are finally made like the Son of God himself (v. 29). This final element in our adoption is “the redemption of our bodies.” “Redemption” shares with “adoption” the (Pauline) “already-not yet” tension that pervades his theology, for the redemption can be pictured both as past and as future.​

~Deut

He predestined us to adoption as sons
Yes he predestined us AS SON S to the adoption . We were not sons before conversion. So AS SONS we are NOW predestined to the redemption of the body . Which is called ' the adoption ' . The 'Adoption ' IS the redemption of the body .

 

[Deuteronomy]

The OT does mention ' Our Father ' because Matthew 6 is still OT.

That's interesting, I always thought that it ended with Malachi, hundreds of years before St. Matthew was born

So, where do you believe the NT actually begins (with the Book of Acts perhaps?), and why do you believe that this is so Do you also believe that Epistles like Hebrews and James are for Jews only, and if so, why

Thanks!

~Deut

 

[throughfaith]

That's interesting, I always thought that it ended with Malachi, hundreds of years before St. Matthew was born

So, where do you believe the NT actually begins (with the Book of Acts perhaps?), and why do you believe that this is so Do you also believe that Epistles like Hebrews and James are for Jews only, and if so, why

Thanks!

~Deut

I would see the 'new testament begins with the death of the testator. So the death of Christ . Hebrews 9 .
16¶For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Jesus is teaching under the law as a jew to Jews. To Israel. His answer to the rich young ruler is the answer given under the law . As is most of what he said and taught. To fulfil all righteousness ect .

 

[oldethennew]

That's interesting, I always thought that it ended with Malachi, hundreds of years before St. Matthew was born

So, where do you believe the NT actually begins (with the Book of Acts perhaps?), and why do you believe that this is so Do you also believe that Epistles like Hebrews and James are for Jews only, and if so, why

Thanks!

~Deut

=======================
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