Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[KingdomBrat]

Check an online concordance and find out how many times the term "wrath" is used in the book of Revelation.

If I am not mistaken that term is used 13 times.
One time as wrath of the Lamb.
One time as the wrath of Satan
Eleven times as the wrath of God

"Some" don't call the GT the "wrath of God".......God calls the GT "wrath of God".

Which all generally takes place second half of the G.T. Therefore, Christians, are not in danger of this [Wrath] until the second half of the G.T. Mathematically speaking here + logic and reasoning = that means [Rapture] could take place around/just after Midpoint.

 

[cv5]

Which all generally takes place second half of the G.T. Therefore, Christians, are not in danger of this [Wrath] until the second half of the G.T. Mathematically speaking here + logic and reasoning = that means [Rapture] could take place around/just after Midpoint.

Sheer speculation but not supported by Scripture in any meaningful way. The man of sin makes his appearance immediately upon the opening of the first seal Revelation 6:2. This is the distinct and unequivocal marker of the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel chapter 9.

And as 2 Thess 2:3 makes clear, the departure a.k.a. rapture occurs before this person is revealed.
Daniel 9:27 matches perfectly with Rev 6:2.....the duration of the covenant with "many" occurs at the very beginning of the 70th week. The covenant with Israel is broken midweek yes. But there is no doubt that the son of perdition is revealed at the very beginning of the 70th week of Daniel....at the very start of the seven year tribulation period.

Dan 9:27
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
......

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I wish I could say that I have never seen scripture twisted into an Archimedes' screw.

 

[ewq1938]

It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.


Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Absolutely the short reign of the Antichrist is a judgment upon those that believe a lie an love not the truth.

He that withholds will withhold until he be taken out of the way and that wicked will be revealed, is a judgment upon those who endure his regime.

In my opinion the first horse that is loosed represents the revelation of the Antichrist who goes forth accumulating world power and in his wake are the other three horses all 4 of these are judgment and the wrath of God.

And since there are 5 to 9 specific verses calling these judgments in the tribulation that wrath of God we don't need to call it something else.

Agreed! There are those who through the pre-wrath teaching don't consider the first six seals as being apart of God's wrath and that because of the announcement "the great day of their wrath has come," which is referring to the whole wrath of God, including the seals that will have previously taken place. In fact and as you mentioned, the emergence of the antichrist represented by the first seal rider on the white horse and all that he does, falls under the banner of God's wrath.

 

[Scribe]

Rev 6:16
and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

https://barrysetterfield.org/Pre-Tribulation_Rapture.html

"It is that word, “apostosia” which causes some problems. Today in our modern English we use the word “apostacy” to describe a religious departure from the faith. Our word apostacy is a late derivative of that same Greek word, and so it has become fashionable to translate it as “the apostacy” or “the departure from the faith” or “the religious departure.” First of all, there have been many departures from the faith historically. We can see this in any number of sects and cults. Second, the translation which indicates a departure from the faith came about as a result of the Reformation doctrine which saw the Pope as the Antichrist and the Roman Catholic Church as having departed from the true faith. The Reformers and those who produced the King James Version therefore favored “the apostacy” as it hinted at their problems with Rome and the language was now making it a possible translation."

"Interestingly, the 7 English translations before the KJV did not use the word “apostacy” or its equivalent of “falling away.” They simply used the word “Departure”, because that is what the root word actually means in Greek – physically going away. In the Greek language there is a root word from which the noun apostasia is derived and from which the verb aphistemi is also derived. All told this root is used 15 times in the New Testament. In most cases it is the verb which has been used and is almost always translated as “departure,” since it really does mean a physical departure as in Luke 2:37 and 4:13. It is only the noun form which has been translated on two occasions as “falling away” or a religious departure due to the influence of the Reformers. The conclusion is that a strict rather than colloquial translation would read as follows: “Let no one deceive you by any means for that Day (the Tribulation) will not come unless THE DEPARTURE comes first.” In the context of verse 1 of our gathering together to Christ, “The Departure” must be referring to the Rapture, and that must happen before the Tribulation. So, when rightly understood, this passage positively affirms a pre-Trib Rapture."

I have heard this theory presented before but after looking at all of the best Greek Scholars and Textual Critics like Gordon Fee and many others there is a reason that rebellion is used in most of the English translations.

The following is from Fee, Gordon D.. The First and Second Letters to the Thessalonians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament) (pp. 280-281). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing

Paul’s explanation as to why they should not be deceived begins with a reminder about what must take place “first,” namely, “the rebellion,” which includes “the revelation of the man of lawlessness” (= “the Rebel”), who is at the same time “the son of destruction,” where the first descriptor deals with his character and the second with his ultimate destiny.

The present clause begins with a “because,” which thus introduces the long explanation that follows. The Thessalonians are not to be deceived “because” of what Paul now goes on to remind them about the very visible events that must transpire before the day of the Lord itself, especially the great rebellion that is to precede it. Even though Paul himself does not use the term “Anti-christ,” one of the reasons the Rebel is frequently referred to by that name here is that the language Paul uses, “the revelation” of this figure, is a pickup of what he says of Christ in 1:7.

The Greek word rendered “rebellion” (apostasia) occurs in the New Testament only here and in Acts 21:21. In Acts it clearly means “to turn away from,” thus “to become ‘apostate,’ ” picking up in its English expression the same meaning as in the Greek. Furthermore, the several occurrences of the cognate verb usually refer to a “turning away” that amounts to “apostasy,” a deliberate and antagonistic rejection of Christ. But despite the usual meaning of this noun in Acts 21, it can hardly have that sense here, its earliest usage, since Paul clearly expects perseverance on the part of these believers. After all, nothing in the context indicates that believers will be deceived by the “lawless one.” Therefore, this noun, which was rendered “falling away” in the KJV, in more recent English translations has been correctly rendered “rebellion.”

 

[Ahwatukee]

There is a prophecy of the Great Tribulation which is the same as the Day of His Wrath (Zech 1) and this is not the same as tribulation that all christians must be prepared to go through to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Agreed. The problem is that there are many who don't understand that there is a difference between the trials and persecutions that the Lord said believers would have, which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. God's direct unprecedented wrath which is going to come upon the inhabitants of the whole earth. There is a huge difference between these two, the latter of which believers are not appointed to suffer.

But then only 144,000 of the tribes of Israel are sealed and so the question becomes are they really only Jews or is it symbolic representation of all the redeemed? And who's guess is correct?

The only way that they can interpret the 144,000 as representing the church, is by symbolizing it. However, within the context, we have the scripture identifying a 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. Then we have a break-down of 12,000 for each of the literal names of the twelve tribes (minus Dan and replaced with Manasseh). That in itself would require a literal interpretation of the text. There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to seek a symbolic or allegorical interpretation of who the 144,000 are.

In addition, the last time the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used, is at the end of chapter 3, where prior to that it was used a total of 19 times. The reason for this, is because Revelation 4.1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered when that voice (the Lord's) sounds like a trumpet and says 'come up here and I will show you what must take place after this' I.e. after the church period. From that time forward, the word changes to 'hagios' translated as 'saints' which is in reference to the great tribulation saints who will become believers during the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath.

Maybe saints are being divinely protected from wrath like the hail stones but not being protected from persecution or martyrdom. I don't know, it gets confusing as to how they die by the multitudes from the Antichrist but no one dies from the wrath of the Lamb.

I believe that the great tribulation saints will be exposed to all of God's wrath simply because they will have become believers after the gathering of the church. This is evident from their description of suffering God's wrath in chapter 7.

"Never again will they hunger, and never will they thirst; nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat."

Never will they hunger = Third Seal/black horse - world wide famine

Never will they thirst = Third Trumpet - a third of the earths water is contaminated. Second and third bowl - oceans and fresh water turned to literal blood.

Nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat = The fourth bowl judgment where the angel pours out his bowl on the sun gives it power to scorch the inhabitants, searing them with intense heat.

So, the great tribulation saints are not protected from any of these things, simply because they will be on the earth. The only plague that will not affect them is the first bowl where a painful ugly sore breaks out upon those who worship the beast and receive his mark. Since the great tribulation saints won't be doing that or receiving his mark, then they will not suffer the first bowl plague.

In addition, if the great tribulation saints were representing the church as the false teaching declares, we see in Chapter 13 that the beast is given power over the saints to make war and conquer them. Therefore, there would be no protection.

Thanks be to God through His Son, Jesus Christ, that those who presently believe in Him will not be present during that time of God's wrath.

At least most Post Tribulation Rapture proponents do not believe that the saints receive the wrath judgments along with the wicked. How that plays out is not very clear.

Since the post tribulation gathering of the church would take place after the completion of God's wrath, which takes place when Jesus is returning to the earth to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. Regarding this, many do not take into account the underlying principal here. When we believed we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Jesus took upon himself the God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ. It is a legal precedent. God's wrath has been satisfied on our behalf. This is the most important reason as to why the living church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

 

[cv5]

I have heard this theory presented before but after looking at all of the best Greek Scholars and Textual Critics like Gordon Fee and many others there is a reason that rebellion is used in most of the English translations.

The following is from Fee, Gordon D.. The First and Second Letters to the Thessalonians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament) (pp. 280-281). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing

Paul’s explanation as to why they should not be deceived begins with a reminder about what must take place “first,” namely, “the rebellion,” which includes “the revelation of the man of lawlessness” (= “the Rebel”), who is at the same time “the son of destruction,” where the first descriptor deals with his character and the second with his ultimate destiny.

The present clause begins with a “because,” which thus introduces the long explanation that follows. The Thessalonians are not to be deceived “because” of what Paul now goes on to remind them about the very visible events that must transpire before the day of the Lord itself, especially the great rebellion that is to precede it. Even though Paul himself does not use the term “Anti-christ,” one of the reasons the Rebel is frequently referred to by that name here is that the language Paul uses, “the revelation” of this figure, is a pickup of what he says of Christ in 1:7.

The Greek word rendered “rebellion” (apostasia) occurs in the New Testament only here and in Acts 21:21. In Acts it clearly means “to turn away from,” thus “to become ‘apostate,’ ” picking up in its English expression the same meaning as in the Greek. Furthermore, the several occurrences of the cognate verb usually refer to a “turning away” that amounts to “apostasy,” a deliberate and antagonistic rejection of Christ. But despite the usual meaning of this noun in Acts 21, it can hardly have that sense here, its earliest usage, since Paul clearly expects perseverance on the part of these believers. After all, nothing in the context indicates that believers will be deceived by the “lawless one.” Therefore, this noun, which was rendered “falling away” in the KJV, in more recent English translations has been correctly rendered “rebellion.”

With that being said I'll have to tell you that I'm firmly in the camp of "the departure" interpretation. A much better fit in terms of context. In terms of textual criticism it could go either way.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I have heard this theory presented before but after looking at all of the best Greek Scholars and Textual Critics like Gordon Fee and many others there is a reason that rebellion is used in most of the English translations.

The following is from Fee, Gordon D.. The First and Second Letters to the Thessalonians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament) (pp. 280-281). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing

Paul’s explanation as to why they should not be deceived begins with a reminder about what must take place “first,” namely, “the rebellion,” which includes “the revelation of the man of lawlessness” (= “the Rebel”), who is at the same time “the son of destruction,” where the first descriptor deals with his character and the second with his ultimate destiny.

The present clause begins with a “because,” which thus introduces the long explanation that follows. The Thessalonians are not to be deceived “because” of what Paul now goes on to remind them about the very visible events that must transpire before the day of the Lord itself, especially the great rebellion that is to precede it. Even though Paul himself does not use the term “Anti-christ,” one of the reasons the Rebel is frequently referred to by that name here is that the language Paul uses, “the revelation” of this figure, is a pickup of what he says of Christ in 1:7.

The Greek word rendered “rebellion” (apostasia) occurs in the New Testament only here and in Acts 21:21. In Acts it clearly means “to turn away from,” thus “to become ‘apostate,’ ” picking up in its English expression the same meaning as in the Greek. Furthermore, the several occurrences of the cognate verb usually refer to a “turning away” that amounts to “apostasy,” a deliberate and antagonistic rejection of Christ. But despite the usual meaning of this noun in Acts 21, it can hardly have that sense here, its earliest usage, since Paul clearly expects perseverance on the part of these believers. After all, nothing in the context indicates that believers will be deceived by the “lawless one.” Therefore, this noun, which was rendered “falling away” in the KJV, in more recent English translations has been correctly rendered “rebellion.”

Agreed! And regarding this, we have those who have used one of the English translated words 'departure,' which is certainly a valid translation if they retain the actual Greek meaning of the word 'apostasia' to mean 'a departure from ones stand in faith.' Unfortunately, they hi-jacked the word to mean to depart up into the air to meet Jesus.

It is also important to recognize Paul's change from "Concerning the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" vs. "The Day of the Lord."

The Thessalonians had previously been taught by Paul, that first the Lord would appear and gather His church, which would be followed by the Day of the Lord i.e. the period of God's wrath. So, since there were false teachers there in Thessalonica teaching that 'The Day of the Lord' had already come, they were basically writing to Paul saying "Hey Paul, there are some here who are saying that the Day of Lord has already come. So how come we haven't been changed and caught up like you taught us? Most people don't recognize the change between those two, which makes the text appear to be saying that the Lord's appearing to gather us won't take place until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

 

[GaryA]

The Great Tribulation of Revelation is repeatedly called the wrath of God in Revelation.

Please define for me 'The Great Tribulation of Revelation' using only verses/passages in the book of Revelation - and, show me how it is repeatedly called 'the wrath of God' in Revelation.

None of the verses you put in the post with the above quoted statement say any such thing.

 

[GaryA]

At least most Post Tribulation Rapture proponents do not believe that the saints receive the wrath judgments along with the wicked. How that plays out is not very clear.

It is exceedingly clear. The saints are not on the earth at that time.

The 'Wrath of God' is post-rapture at the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

The Great Tribulation in Revelation and the Olivet Discourse is the wrath of Satan against Christians. It is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God starts at the 7th trump not sooner and the Great Tribulation ends when the 7th trump sounds.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[ewq1938]

It is exceedingly clear. The saints are not on the earth at that time.

The 'Wrath of God' is post-rapture at the Second Coming of Christ.

Yep. All the saints would be in the clouds of the Earth while the vials of God's wrath are poured. Even if they were in a large building with the wicked and the wrath poured, none of the righteous would be harmed.

 

[GaryA]

And since there are 5 to 9 specific verses calling these judgments in the tribulation that wrath of God we don't need to call it something else.

Show me.

The verses you have already posted say no such thing.

There is not a single verse in Revelation that associates the 'Wrath of God' with the 'Great Tribulation' (as defined in Matthew 24) or makes the WoG to be any part of the GT.

 

[GaryA]

One time as wrath of the Lamb.
One time as the wrath of Satan
Eleven times as the wrath of God

2 - 1 - 10

God calls the GT "wrath of God".

Show me.

Nowhere in the entire Bible does God call, define, or label the 'Great Tribulation' as the 'Wrath of God'.

 

[ewq1938]

2 - 1 - 10


Show me.

Nowhere in the entire Bible does God call, define, or label the 'Great Tribulation' as the 'Wrath of God'.

Correct plus Christ said the Great Tribulation was persecution of Christians so obviously it cannot be the wrath of God.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The length of the Great Tribulation would be shortened to help the elect survive it which means God will not allow Satan's wrath to last as long.

 

[GaryA]

Daniel 9:27 matches perfectly with Rev 6:2.....the duration of the covenant with "many" occurs at the very beginning of the 70th week. The covenant with Israel is broken midweek yes. But there is no doubt that the son of perdition is revealed at the very beginning of the 70th week of Daniel....at the very start of the seven year tribulation period.

Daniel 9:27 and Revelation 6:2 have absolutely nothing [directly] to do with each other.

The 70th week of Daniel ended in 34 A.D.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Great Tribulation in Revelation and the Olivet Discourse is the wrath of Satan against Christians. It is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God starts at the 7th trump not sooner and the Great Tribulation ends when the 7th trump sounds.

Forgive me, but that is completely false! Though Satan get's angry during that time, it is during the long prophesied Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, that this happens. Nowhere in scripture is there any prophecy referring to the time period of Satan's wrath. We see him getting angry when he and his angels are cast to the earth. However, his anger is the result of God's wrath, finally being kicked out of heaven. There is not time period of the wrath of Satan. Everything that happens during that time period falls under The Day of the Lord, the time specified as God's wrath.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Revelation 11:15-17, is a pre-celebration of the result of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, which is Satan and his angels finally being cast out of heaven to the earth. Adam and Eve had been given authority over the earth and everything in it. But When they disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit, the authority over the earth went to Satan, which is demonstrated in the scripture below:

"The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

The sounding of the 7th trumpet, is the authority of the earth reverting from Satan back to God and mankind. The scripture is not speaking about the end of the tribulation ether, for there will still be seven bowl judgments of wrath to follow.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

God's wrath is also announce at the opening of the sixth seal, which also includes all of the previous seals, the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments which follow.

"And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?

 

[GaryA]

I wish I could say that I have never seen scripture twisted into an Archimedes' screw.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Correct plus Christ said the Great Tribulation was persecution of Christians so obviously it cannot be the wrath of God.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The length of the Great Tribulation would be shortened to help the elect survive it which means God will not allow Satan's wrath to last as long.

Once again, it is not Satan's wrath. This is just another false teaching that has crept into the church. The great tribulation will be the persecution of a Christ rejecting world, the haughty and arrogant and those who willfully live according to the sinful nature. Just fyi, it is the Lamb who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowls, which makes Jesus responsible for all of the resulting fatalities and destruction, which is their purpose.

Mat.24:21-22 is not referring to the church who will have previously been gathered, but to those who will be on the earth during that time, namely, Israel, the saints who will have become believers after the gathering of the church, as well as the wicked.

The seven years is the shortened version. Basically Jesus is saying that, if that time period were allowed to go on any longer than the prophesied time, no one would be left alive and therefore, there would be no one to repopulate the millennial kingdom. So, for the sake of Israel and the great tribulation saints, those days will not go on any longer than the prophesied seven years.