Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

Truth7t7 · Jan 31, 2021

I agree the plagues during the tribulation will be judgement and wrath, but you refuse to acknowledge that the plagues come upon the Beast and his kingdom, just as the plagues against Pharaoh fell upon the Egyptians

You build a completely false narrative based upon fear, trying desperately to convince your reader that they must take part in your teaching in a pre-trib rapture to escape Gods wrath, (False)

Gods (Sealed) Church is protected,and yes the 144,000 are (Sealed) and (Added) to the Church present on earth during the tribulation

As is clearly seen below, the (Sealed) Church is protected from the plague of torment for 5 months, (Only Those That "Have Not" the (Seal) of God

All living saved believers (Church) are (Sealed) by God the Holy Spirit, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

The plagues in wrath are specifically for the Antichrist and his evil followers, the (Sealed) church is protected, just as the Hebrew were protected, the tribulation and the (Two Witnesses) will be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 16:10-11KJV
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Truth7t7 · Jan 31, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Yes, there are verses, but people reject them or don't understand them.

The main principal as to why the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, is because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Those who teach that the church is gathered mid or post tribulation, cannot truly believe that Jesus satisfied God's wrath on our behalf.

"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."

Anyone who believes and teaches that the church will go through God's coming wrath, cannot truly believe in the scripture above.

Your error is the same as other who read 'First resurrection" and interpret that as "only resurrection," which it is not.

First of all, the resurrection which takes place in Revelation 20:4-6, is only a resurrection of the dead. At this resurrection there are no living who are transformed and caught up. And second, those who are resurrected here is in reference to the saints who come out of the great tribulation, who were introduced in Revelation 7:9-17. These are those who will have become believers after the church has been gathered from the earth and during the time of God's wrath.

I've posted this many times, but I will post it again: The word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and that without the word 'saints' used interchangeably. Then after the end of chapter 3 the word 'church' disappears from use. It's gone! The reason for this is that, Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion, or masked if you will, where the church is called up and which is why the word 'church' no longer appears in the narrative. The next time the church is seen is under the title of 'the bride' who is at the wedding of the Lamb in Rev.19:6-8, receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and were her fine linen, white and clean. And the next time the word 'church' is actually used again is in Rev.22:16, which is outside of the narrative of God's wrath.

The appearing of the Lord to gather His church, is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

When the church is gathered, the Lord will appear in the atmosphere and with a voice that sounds like a trumpet He will say "come up here!" At that time John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:13-17 will be fulfilled, where the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

At the second coming, the Lord will descend from heaven to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, which is where He has the beast and the false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire, all the wicked are killed with the double-edged sword and Satan is thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years. At that time is also when the great tribulation saints will be resurrected and will rule with Christ during that thousand years, along with the church and the 144,000.

I Thessalonians 4:13-17 = a resurrection of the dead and the living are transformed and caught up with them.

Revelation 20:4-6 = a resurrection, but no mention of the living in Christ being changed and caught up.

The first resurrection, or better understood as the resurrection that takes place prior to the resurrection of the unrighteous dead at the end of the thousand years, is made up of stages or phases:

The First Resurrection includes:

* Christ the first fruits

* The church (those at His coming)

* The Male Child/144,000 (Caught up to God's throne)

* The two witnesses

* The great tribulation saints

All of the above fall under the banner of the first resurrection and take place prior to the beginning of the thousand years.

There Is "One" Future Resurrection Of "All", This Takes Place On "The Last Day" At The Time Of "Final Judgement"

(The Last Day Resurrection, Judgement)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(The Last Day Resurrection)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(The Last Day Judgement)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Absolutely · Jan 31, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Yes, there are verses, but people reject them or don't understand them.

The main principal as to why the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, is because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Those who teach that the church is gathered mid or post tribulation, cannot truly believe that Jesus satisfied God's wrath on our behalf.

"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."

Anyone who believes and teaches that the church will go through God's coming wrath, cannot truly believe in the scripture above.

Your error is the same as other who read 'First resurrection" and interpret that as "only resurrection," which it is not.

First of all, the resurrection which takes place in Revelation 20:4-6, is only a resurrection of the dead. At this resurrection there are no living who are transformed and caught up. And second, those who are resurrected here is in reference to the saints who come out of the great tribulation, who were introduced in Revelation 7:9-17. These are those who will have become believers after the church has been gathered from the earth and during the time of God's wrath.

I've posted this many times, but I will post it again: The word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and that without the word 'saints' used interchangeably. Then after the end of chapter 3 the word 'church' disappears from use. It's gone! The reason for this is that, Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion, or masked if you will, where the church is called up and which is why the word 'church' no longer appears in the narrative. The next time the church is seen is under the title of 'the bride' who is at the wedding of the Lamb in Rev.19:6-8, receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and were her fine linen, white and clean. And the next time the word 'church' is actually used again is in Rev.22:16, which is outside of the narrative of God's wrath.

The appearing of the Lord to gather His church, is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

When the church is gathered, the Lord will appear in the atmosphere and with a voice that sounds like a trumpet He will say "come up here!" At that time John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:13-17 will be fulfilled, where the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

At the second coming, the Lord will descend from heaven to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, which is where He has the beast and the false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire, all the wicked are killed with the double-edged sword and Satan is thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years. At that time is also when the great tribulation saints will be resurrected and will rule with Christ during that thousand years, along with the church and the 144,000.

I Thessalonians 4:13-17 = a resurrection of the dead and the living are transformed and caught up with them.

Revelation 20:4-6 = a resurrection, but no mention of the living in Christ being changed and caught up.

The first resurrection, or better understood as the resurrection that takes place prior to the resurrection of the unrighteous dead at the end of the thousand years, is made up of stages or phases:

The First Resurrection includes:

* Christ the first fruits

* The church (those at His coming)

* The Male Child/144,000 (Caught up to God's throne)

* The two witnesses

* The great tribulation saints

All of the above fall under the banner of the first resurrection and take place prior to the beginning of the thousand years.

Yes all are harvested.

Harvest is 4 parts . ( Or 3 depending on perspective)
Firstfruits is inseparable.

There are 2 firstfruit gatherings.

Why?

Because 2 separate covenant people.

The bride being Gentile (Ruth)

Ahwatukee · Jan 31, 2021

Phoneman-777 said:

That the bowl judgments are said to be last, completing God's wrath, means that there would have be other plagues of wrath that come before them, which are the seals and the trumpets. If I say "I was last in line to buy my concert tickets" it would mean that there were other people ahead of me. It is the same here:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

If the seven bowl judgments are last, then it infers that there will be other wrath that comes before them. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will be against the wicked from the opening of the fist seal.

1). There is no scripture that either mentions the church with the narrative of God's wrath, nor does it ever say that they are protected. In fact, regarding the great tribulation saints it is just the opposite, as the beast is given authority over them to make war and conquer the saints of that time, with many of them being beheaded, as described in Rev.13. The only groups that are protected are the woman of Revelation 12 which is the remnant of Israel, where He will care for her during that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

2). Because God's wrath will be affecting all of the inhabitants on the whole inhabited world, there will be no ark for the church to get on and no small city to flee to. This will be the time when the Lord fulfills His promise to come and get His church to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 31, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
There is no good argument about the teaching that Jesus comes to earth and resurrects all the dead saints, and gives resurrection bodies to all living saints and then takes them all back to heaven.

Phoneman-777 said:

No, it isn't. There is no mention of Jesus returning to heaven with the resurrected saints. In fact, there are no versew anywhere that teach that Jesus returns to heaven after rapturing believers.

Acts 3:21 specifically contradicts the idea that Jesus leaves heaven, and then returns before God "restores all things".

Ahwatukee · Jan 31, 2021

Absolutely said:

I never believed that Jesus was the one sitting on the cloud, as he is referred to as 'another angel." And if the 144,000 are the first fruits to God out of Israel who will have been previously caught up, then how can this first harvest also be first fruits and which are not mentioned as being the first fruits?

I've done all of these studies and I cannot come to a conclusion about who and what this first harvest is until God reveals it to me, just as He has the rest of scripture.

Truth7t7 · Jan 31, 2021

Absolutely said:

Two Separate Covenant People?

(Dual Covenant Theology) A (False Teaching) Of Man

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 31, 2021

cv5 said:

How about nearly 20 years of reading through the NT monthly? Does that qualify for anything?

Rather than kicking a dead horse, can you point to ANY verse that specifically indicates that Jesus raptures people and then takes them back to heaven? That would save a whole lot of time.

Indeed. Even though that word doesn't occur in Scripture. The better, and biblical, word is "gathered", as occurs in:

Matt 24-
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2 Thess 2-
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

It is clear from the context of Matt 24 that v.30-31 occurs AFTER the Tribulation (distress). And ch 2 of 2 Thess clearly reveals the ORDER: second coming of Christ, and THEN "our being fathered together to Him".

And Acts 3:21 contradicts the notion that Jesus leaves heaven, goes to earth, and then returns "before the restoration of all things".

Then quote away, please. At least ONE verse that clearly and specifically teaches that Jesus takes the raptured believers back to heaven. Thanks.

Ahwatukee · Jan 31, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Excuse me! I beg to differ, as there is scripture that teaches Jesus appearing to gather His church and then taking them back to heaven.

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

So, in the scripture above, Jesus says that there are many rooms in His Father's house. And that He was going there to prepare places for us and that he would come back to get us so that where He is we may be also, which again would be the Father's house.

It wouldn't make much sense for Jesus to go to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for us and then not take us back there. Then Jesus also said the following:

"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.

Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”

The 'Later' that Jesus was referring to, is coming up very quickly, where the Lord will appear in the atmosphere and will call up the dead in Christ and the living will be changed and caught up with them. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be in the air with the Lord, where at which time He will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that went to prepare for us, so that we can be where He is.

In addition, in Rev.19:6-8 we have the church as the bride already seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14 we see the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven wearing her fine linen. Consequently, in order to follow the Lord out of heaven, we would have to already be in heaven. In further support of this, we have the following information regarding when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age:

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Jude quoting Enoch says the same thing:

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

The bottom line is that, the church must be removed from the earth prior to the on-set of God's wrath which is initiated with the opening of the first seal. Since Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then we cannot and will not be exposed to it. This is a legal precedent. God's wrath has already been satisfied and therefore, those who believe in His Son are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

If you're going to respond, please address the scriptures that I have provided instead of jumping to something else, especially the underlying principal that I provided.

Ahwatukee · Jan 31, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Yes, if you will go and look at post #429 or John 14:1-3, it says exactly that Jesus is going to gather the church and take them back to the Father's house. It's very straight forward in its meaning.

You must have missed that one during your 20 years

Truth7t7 · Jan 31, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

The saints mentioned, are the (Two Witnesses) at the (End) of their testimony, not the (Church) as you suggest.

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You build a completely false narrative based upon fear, trying desperately to convince your reader that they must take part in your teaching of a pre-trib rapture to escape Gods wrath, (False)

Gods (Sealed) Church is protected,and yes the 144,000 are (Sealed) and (Added) to the Church present on earth during the tribulation

As is clearly seen below, the (Sealed) Church is protected from the plague of torment for 5 months, (Only Those That "Have Not" the (Seal) of God

All living saved believers (Church) are (Sealed) by God the Holy Spirit, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

The plagues in wrath are specifically for the Antichrist and his evil followers, the (Sealed) church is protected, just as the Hebrew were protected, the tribulation and the (Two Witnesses) will be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 16:10-11KJV
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Truth7t7 · Jan 31, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Excuse me! I beg to differ, as there is scripture that teaches Jesus appearing to gather His church and then taking them back to heaven.

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

So, in the scripture above, Jesus says that there are many rooms in His Father's house. And that He was going there to prepare places for us and that he would come back to get us so that where He is we may be also, which again would be the Father's house.

It wouldn't make much sense for Jesus to go to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for us and then not take us back there. Then Jesus also said the following:

"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.

Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”

The 'Later' that Jesus was referring to, is coming up very quickly, where the Lord will appear in the atmosphere and will call up the dead in Christ and the living will be changed and caught up with them. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be in the air with the Lord, where at which time He will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that went to prepare for us, so that we can be where He is.

In addition, in Rev.19:6-8 we have the church as the bride already seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14 we see the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven wearing her fine linen. Consequently, in order to follow the Lord out of heaven, we would have to already be in heaven. In further support of this, we have the following information regarding when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age:

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Jude quoting Enoch says the same thing:

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

The bottom line is that, the church must be removed from the earth prior to the on-set of God's wrath which is initiated with the opening of the first seal. Since Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then we cannot and will not be exposed to it. This is a legal precedent. God's wrath has already been satisfied and therefore, those who believe in His Son are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

If you're going to respond, please address the scriptures that I have provided instead of jumping to something else, especially the underlying principal that I provided.

The Church will be present on earth during the great tribulation, and witness the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke clearly explains below.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 31, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

The reason such verses are rejected is because they DO NOT say that Jesus takes raptured believers back to heaven. Did you read Acts 3:21 and what the Greek word for "receives" really means?

This misses or ignores the fact that the Bible uses "wrath of God" to mean His anger toward sin. Do believers continue to sin? Of course they do. However, the Bible also promises faithful believers that they will not experience God's wrath.

1 Thess 5:9 doesn't say believers will miss the Tribulation (as many assume). It contrasts "wrath" with "salvation". So, what's the opposite of "salvation"? The lake of fire, of course. That verse is about missing the lake of fire, due to our promised salvation.

"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."[/QUOTE
This verse doesn't say anything about the Tribulation. It's about our salvation. Which is being delivered (saved) from the lake of fire.

I don't believe YOUR interpretation of the verse. So far, you've provided no clear verse about Jesus taking raptured believers back up to heaven. Because there aren't any. So one must develop a construct for that idea.

OK, so Rev 20:5 means "first (but not really the first) resurrection" then. Nope. Not buying. I believe what you're doing is eisegesis.

So, basically, you believe in at least 2 resurrections of people. Without any evidence. In Rev 20, the mention of the "first resurrection" is in contrast to the Great White Throne, where all unbelievers will be "gathered".

Actually, this is untrue. The first 3 chapters of Revelation is dedicated to the church. Note the first 3 verses of ch 1:
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The words "His servants" refers to the believers that John wrote to, and by extention, ALL believers after that.

Now, let's go to the final chapter of Rev.

22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Notice the similarity. And notice also that the entire book is bookended by mentioning the church. So to say that the word "church" "disappears from use" is flatly false.

Yes, that's the argument. But without evidence.

I'm glad you brought this passage up. It also supports my position.

6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

The bolded words seem clear enough that John was describing an event (the wedding of the Lamb) that is about to occur.

why would John write "birde has made herself ready" if that event had ALREADY occurred? The passage indicates a joyous celebration of what is to come, not what already occurred 7 years previously.

iow, v.6-8 don't fit the context of ch 19, which is when Jesus comes back as King.

When Jesus comes to resurrect the dead saints and "change" the living saints, of course He will be accompanied by ALL the dead saints who are already in heaven.

And don't forget what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse does not permit splitting the resurrection into parts. It's clear: Christ first, THEN when he comes (Second Advent) everyone else (those who belong to Him).

I have just shown the opposite. That when Jesus returns with all dead saints, it is at the end of the Trib.

Claiming that the Lord "will take the entire church BACK TO THE FATHER'S HOUSE is not supported by ANY verse. That's just a construct.

It's all one event. Acts 3:21 prevents the notion that Jesus leaves heaven and goes back before God "restores all things".

Yes, and NOTHING about going back to heaven. Where is that verse that teaches such?

So what? 1 Cor 15:23 is clear enough. Christ is resurrected FIRST, (first fruits) and then "those who belong to Him". There is NO room for splitting the resurrection of humans into several events.

No, that is just a construct.

The only thing I will agree with you about is that the first (and only) resurrection of believers is prior to the Millennium.

There is only ONE "first resurrection". There cannot be two of them. In that case, John would have had to write "second resurrection" in Rev 20:5. But he didn't do that.

Truth7t7 · Jan 31, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Its Straight Forward, Jesus Will Come Again, Its Called (The Second Coming) Not A John N Darby (Secret Rapture) That Dosent Exist In Scripture

And The Fathers House Is New Jerusalem, That Will Come From Heaven, (Prepared) As A Bride, Adorned For Her Husband

John 14:1-3KJV
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 31, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

It is clear to me that Jesus was speaking of where believers go when they die BEFORE He returns to earth at the Second Advent. Problem solved!!

The problem is that neither the text or context includes anything about the Tribulation or end times. Jesus was simply talking about where believers who die will go.

No, Jesus was simply telling Peter that he wouldn't physically die THEN, but he would LATER ON.

Actually, the wording is clear that the celebration is about what is coming. And ch 19 is the Second Advent.

All dead saints are in heaven, of course. No mystery there.

It should be obvious that AFTER Jesus resurrects the dead believers that followed Him from heaven, and "changes" all the living believers next, your underlined words will make perfect sense.

Yes, Jesus will empty heaven of ALL dead saints when He returns at the Second Advent. And Matt 24:30-31 is very clear that 'the elect' will be gathered when He returns.

That's just a construct. Acts 3:21 doesn't permit such a claim.

The word "wrath" is used for God's anger. And God does get angry with His children who sin. Understanding "wrath" to only mean "hell" is a mistake.

If you're going to respond, please address the scriptures that I have provided instead of jumping to something else, especially the underlying principal that I provided.[/QUOTE]
Just did.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 31, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

I missed nothing. Jesus was talking about when believers die, and having a place for them in heaven after they die.

GaryA · Jan 31, 2021

Truth7t7 said:

Its Straight Forward, Jesus Will Come Again, Its Called (The Second Coming) Not A John N Darby (Secret Rapture) That Dosent Exist In Scripture

And The Fathers House Is New Jerusalem, That Will Come From Heaven, (Prepared) As A Bride, Adorned For Her Husband

John 14:1-3KJV
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Now this is something we can agree on!

cv5 · Jan 31, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

How about nearly 20 years of reading through the NT monthly? Does that qualify for anything?

Rather than kicking a dead horse, can you point to ANY verse that specifically indicates that Jesus raptures people and then takes them back to heaven? That would save a whole lot of time.

Indeed. Even though that word doesn't occur in Scripture. The better, and biblical, word is "gathered", as occurs in:

Matt 24-
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2 Thess 2-
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

It is clear from the context of Matt 24 that v.30-31 occurs AFTER the Tribulation (distress). And ch 2 of 2 Thess clearly reveals the ORDER: second coming of Christ, and THEN "our being fathered together to Him".

And Acts 3:21 contradicts the notion that Jesus leaves heaven, goes to earth, and then returns "before the restoration of all things".

Then quote away, please. At least ONE verse that clearly and specifically teaches that Jesus takes the raptured believers back to heaven. Thanks.

Nope. Typically flawed exegesis.

GaryA · Jan 31, 2021

Ya know --- it's nothing short of amazing just how many times a dead horse can be beaten and there still remain enough horse to beat...

GaryA · Jan 31, 2021

The moment we don't think we could possibly be in error --- is the moment that we are...

Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage

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