Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Look, I’m southern and a bit slow, but it seems the only problem with your analysis is that there is no “7 years of tribulation” mentioned on Scripture - it’s a Jesuit distortion of the 70 Weeks where the last week is sent down to the end of time to unfold just after the saints are “caught up”, and later Darby who was seduced by this nonsense added the “secret” part.
[...]

I just posted about some of the "chronology" issues (which is what you are missing) in the Olivet Discourse (and related passages) over in a different thread, recently. Please check out the "chronology" issues:

https://christianchat.com/threads/t...d-how-many-years-are-left.197122/post-4479991 [Post #28]

So, Christians will be here for the “time of trouble” and some will suffer martyrdom, but when probation closes and God’s wrath is poured out in the 7 Last Plagues, the promises of the prophecy of Psalm 91 shall come to pass.

The "pre-trib" position/doctrine is NOT saying there WON'T be any "saints" existing in the trib years (many of whom will SURVIVE through to the END of it [(as "STILL-LIVING")...to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of bearing children/reproducing]... MANY will... see the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages I've listed in the past speaking of this very point/event/happening, in the chronology, like Daniel 12:12 for one example... and like Luke 21:36 for another example [<--a Trib verse, NOT a "Rapture" verse!])...

...but that those "saints" existing in the trib years (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (MANY WILL!!)... Those of them who DIE in the trib, will be "resurrected [meaning, 'to stand again' (on the earth)]" AT END OF / AFTER the Trib, at the same time that the OT saints will be "resurrected" (per what Daniel was told of himself [OT saint] in Dan12:13; per what Job said of himself in Job 19:25-27; per what Martha said [and understood aright] in John 11:24 [about "IN[/AT] the Last Day" (which is not "a singular 24-hr day," but a very lengthy [earthly-located] TIME-PERIOD [*IN which* a GREAT MANY things will transpire, including this at the commencement of the earthly MK age, upon His "RETURN" there])]; so Rev20:4b is a verse (part of a verse ) speaking of those saints who will have DIED / been martyred IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years, and "resurrected ['to stand again (on the earth)]" AT END OF / AFTER the Trib (whereas v.4a is speaking of a distinct group... which I believe the WORDING there connects it with Daniel 7:22, which I believe is speaking of "still-living" saints at the point in time being referenced).




____________

One of the things I see as being very problematic for the "post-trib" viewpoint is that, once we (believers) are "Raptured" (regardless of what you think the "destination-location" ends up being), and the rest of everyone else (the "lost / unsaved") are destroyed, as most agree happens at that point, then who is the following verse speaking of (at that point in the chronology [His "RETURN" to the earth]), Rev19:15b, "and He shall [FUTURE tense] rule [/shepherd] them [/the nations] with a rod [/sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength]"... esp. b/c of what Rev5:9 shows the "24 elders" to be saying ("hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation") and what Rev1:5-6 says similarly ("US" 3x) and also what Rev2:26-27 says (Jesus speaking, "TO HIM will I give power over the nations, and he shall rule them [/the nations] with a rod of iron... EVEN AS I RECEIVED of My Father").

To be clear, I do not believe there will be any UNsaved / UNbelievers who will ENTER the MK age (at its commencement [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES"])... though those born TO the saints (throughout the MK age) will not be "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS" and thus will be the ONLY ones susceptible to "death" in the MK age (when "death" will be much more RARE in the MK age, reserved ONLY for the rebellious [i.e. the unsaved]).

I can see no way that the "post-trib" idea can explain ALL of the related passages, but that many of the related passages are disregarded, and the "chronology" issues are butchered altogether... = )

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nope. Typically flawed exegesis.

Well then, please correct what was "flawed". Thanks.

I don't want to be wrong any more than you do. So I'd appreciate all correction.

I've given clear verses that prove that Jesus does NOT return to heaven after rapturing believers. So, if there is disagreement, please refute my claims by properly explaining the verses I've shared.

If you are correct and I am wrong, that shouldn't be difficult.

 

[Truth7t7]

I just posted about some of the "chronology" issues (which is what you are missing) in the Olivet Discourse (and related passages) over in a different thread, recently. Please check out the "chronology" issues:

https://christianchat.com/threads/t...d-how-many-years-are-left.197122/post-4479991 [Post #28]



The "pre-trib" position/doctrine is NOT saying there WON'T be any "saints" existing in the trib years (many of whom will SURVIVE through to the END of it [(as "STILL-LIVING")...to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of bearing children/reproducing]... MANY will... see the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages I've listed in the past speaking of this very point/event/happening, in the chronology, like Daniel 12:12 for one example... and like Luke 21:36 for another example [<--a Trib verse, NOT a "Rapture" verse!])...

...but that those "saints" existing in the trib years (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (MANY WILL!!)... Those of them who DIE in the trib, will be "resurrected [meaning, 'to stand again' (on the earth)]" AT END OF / AFTER the Trib, at the same time that the OT saints will be "resurrected" (per what Daniel was told of himself [OT saint] in Dan12:13; per what Job said of himself in Job 19:25-27; per what Martha said [and understood aright] in John 11:24 [about "IN[/AT] the Last Day" (which is not "a singular 24-hr day," but a very lengthy [earthly-located] TIME-PERIOD [*IN which* a GREAT MANY things will transpire, including this at the commencement of the earthly MK age, upon His "RETURN" there])]; so Rev20:4b is a verse (part of a verse ) speaking of those saints who will have DIED / been martyred IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years, and "resurrected ['to stand again (on the earth)]" AT END OF / AFTER the Trib (whereas v.4a is speaking of a distinct group... which I believe the WORDING there connects it with Daniel 7:22, which I believe is speaking of "still-living" saints at the point in time being referenced).




____________

One of the things I see as being very problematic for the "post-trib" viewpoint is that, once we (believers) are "Raptured" (regardless of what you think the "destination-location" ends up being), and the rest of everyone else (the "lost / unsaved") are destroyed, as most agree happens at that point, then who is the following verse speaking of (at that point in the chronology [His "RETURN" to the earth]), Rev19:15b, "and He shall [FUTURE tense] rule [/shepherd] them [/the nations] with a rod [/sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength]"... esp. b/c of what Rev5:9 shows the "24 elders" to be saying ("hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation") and what Rev1:5-6 says similarly ("US" 3x) and also what Rev2:26-27 says (Jesus speaking, "TO HIM will I give power over the nations, and he shall rule them [/the nations] with a rod of iron... EVEN AS I RECEIVED of My Father").

To be clear, I do not believe there will be any UNsaved / UNbelievers who will ENTER the MK age (at its commencement [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES"])... though those born TO the saints (throughout the MK age) will not be "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS" and thus will be the ONLY ones susceptible to "death" in the MK age (when "death" will be much more RARE in the MK age, reserved ONLY for the rebellious [i.e. the unsaved]).

I can see no way that the "post-trib" idea can explain ALL of the related passages, but that many of the related passages are disregarded, and the "chronology" issues are butchered altogether... = )

There is not one scripture in Gods Holy Words that teaches of a (Pre-Trib) rapture of the church to heaven, you can repeat the false teaching of (John N. Darby) all ya want, its not there, no place!

Every scripture used, is nothing more than the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ, falsely pushed by Darby's followers to be this (Secret Rapture) event, (Fact)

 

[cv5]

How about nearly 20 years of reading through the NT monthly? Does that qualify for anything?


Rather than kicking a dead horse, can you point to ANY verse that specifically indicates that Jesus raptures people and then takes them back to heaven? That would save a whole lot of time.


Indeed. Even though that word doesn't occur in Scripture. The better, and biblical, word is "gathered", as occurs in:

Matt 24-
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2 Thess 2-
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

It is clear from the context of Matt 24 that v.30-31 occurs AFTER the Tribulation (distress). And ch 2 of 2 Thess clearly reveals the ORDER: second coming of Christ, and THEN "our being fathered together to Him".

And Acts 3:21 contradicts the notion that Jesus leaves heaven, goes to earth, and then returns "before the restoration of all things".


Then quote away, please. At least ONE verse that clearly and specifically teaches that Jesus takes the raptured believers back to heaven. Thanks.

Conflating Israel the Church and gentiles is always the problem. The Church and Israel have different origins, different dispensations, different destinies.

Daniel ch 9, Daniel ch 12, Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13. All spoken to Israel and Israel alone.
The Day of the Lord aka 70th week aka Tribulation/GT aka time of Jacob's trouble and the at least 1500 verses pertaining to it relate to the redemption of Israel. And fulfillment of God's obligation to them through the covenants outstanding.

The Church was a mystery revealed. Rising between the 69th and 70th week gap of Daniel. And for all intents and purposes bracketed between it.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians 3&version=NKJV

9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that NOW the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the Church to the principalities and powers in the heavenlyplaces, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

During our Lord Jesus Messiah's ministry the 12 apostles did NOT understand the mystery of the Church. Even up to the point of His ascension the apostles were STILL thinking that the kingdom would return to Israel by Jesus. In fact every time Jesus spoke of His death they were freaking out.

Acts 1:6
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

The Church per se began at Pentecost. And arguably the fullness of the understanding of the Church was revealed in stages after that! I would argue all the way to Acts ch 10 and Cornelius and even beyond that Acts ch 15 council of Jerusalem.....and I would honestly say all the way until the epistles of Paul when only then he revealed the Church in all of its fullness and glory.

The dispensation of the revealed mystery of the Church (concealed in the Old Testament only hinted at in various types and patterns) BEGAN distinctly at Pentecost and will END distinctly at the Rapture. After the Rapture no further human beings will be redeemed to the particular status and the category of the bride of Christ. Who are but a component of a number of groups who are part of the "first resurrection".

The fact that the Church is not seen in the book of Revelation beyond ch 5 is beyond any dispute whatsoever. Chapter 6 and onward is the fulfillment of all the prophecies pertaining to Day of the Lord. All preaching efforts are now being broadcast by Israelites only! There is not one single solitary instance of a gentile preaching during the tribulation period.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the Church of chapters 2 and 3 are now in heaven in chapters 4 and 5. This is why the great commission mandate is not happening during the time of the tribulation. The Church is been removed from the time of wrath precisely as Paul has indicated.

Those who deny the pre-tribulation rapture have nothing whatsoever to substantiate their claims. Certainly not as far as the scriptures concern. An overactive imagination is useless. But the naysayers use it anyway.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There are 2 firstfruit gatherings.

I agree with this statement.

James 1:18 says "a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there is more than ONE "kind")

Leviticus 23 speaks of TWO distinct "firstfruit"... one in Lev23:10-12 and the second one in Lev23:17 (<--which verse, here, parallels Rev14:4, said of the 144,000)... but this does not necessitate that ppl have DIED (I think it applies regardless).




BTW, to be clear, I disagree with Ahwatukee's take on the 144,000... I do not believe Rev14 is saying they've died and are now located in Heaven (I do not believe the text supports this)... and I do not believe the 144,000 are "the male [G730] / the man child" [Rev12] (I believe THAT speaks of the same thing that Micah 5:3 speaks of [distinct from 5:2 which is about Jesus' birth]... and that v.3's "the remnant [returning]" speaks of those of Israel... FOLLOWING a certain point in time)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

James 1:18 says "a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there is more than ONE "kind")

Leviticus 23 speaks of TWO distinct "firstfruit"... one in Lev23:10-12 and the second one in Lev23:17 (<--which verse, here, parallels Rev14:4, said of the 144,000)... but this does not necessitate that ppl have DIED (I think it applies regardless).

...so where I'm pointing out the SECOND "firstfruit" (of Lev23), this is referring to the "WHEAT harvest"... and where this verse says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"... v.17




[we / "the Church which is His body" are not the "WHEAT" harvest]

 

[Phoneman-777]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is no good argument about the teaching that Jesus comes to earth and resurrects all the dead saints, and gives resurrection bodies to all living saints and then takes them all back to heaven.

No, it isn't. There is no mention of Jesus returning to heaven with the resurrected saints. In fact, there are no versew anywhere that teach that Jesus returns to heaven after rapturing believers.

Acts 3:21 specifically contradicts the idea that Jesus leaves heaven, and then returns before God "restores all things".

So, please consider this:

• It makes no sense to be "caught up" to Jesus in the air if we're just going to come right back down.
• There won't be anything left to come back down to because 2 Peter 3:10 says when the Lord Jesus comes "as a thief" the Earth is going to look like a bazillion nukes went off.
• There's 1,000 years separating the First and the Second Resurrection. When New Jerusalem comes down and all the wicked rise for judgment, the saints are already in the city, which means they had to have previously gone up to the city....at the Second Coming!
• Jesus said the groom brings his bride to his father's house, so it just makes sense that the Second Coming is Jesus returning for His bride which He will take back to His Father's house for the Marriage supper of the Lamb, right?

What do you think about this?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Ya know --- it's nothing short of amazing just how many times a dead horse can be beaten and there still remain enough horse to beat...

 

[Phoneman-777]

Nope. Typically flawed exegesis.

I got dem Blue Runner New Orleans style simmered beans on the stove if you hungry, bro. Just pick up a loaf of French Bread.

 

[cv5]

I never believed that Jesus was the one sitting on the cloud, as he is referred to as 'another angel." And if the 144,000 are the first fruits to God out of Israel who will have been previously caught up, then how can this first harvest also be first fruits and which are not mentioned as being the first fruits?

I've done all of these studies and I cannot come to a conclusion about who and what this first harvest is until God reveals it to me, just as He has the rest of scripture.

Rev 14:15 has an angel commanding this v.14 Angel to reap. Definitely a sticking point, because Jesus does not take orders from any mere angel.

Some Bibles capitalize the "His", "Your" and "You".......inferring that it is Jesus Messiah.

Frankly I'm not entirely convinced one way or the other....

 

[Truth7t7]

Conflating Israel the Church and gentiles is always the problem. The Church and Israel have different origins, different dispensations, different destinies.

Daniel ch 9, Daniel ch 12, Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13. All spoken to Israel and Israel alone.
The Day of the Lord aka 70th week aka Tribulation/GT aka time of Jacob's trouble and the at least 1500 verses pertaining to it relate to the redemption of Israel. And fulfillment of God's obligation to them through the covenants outstanding.

The Church was a mystery revealed. Rising between the 69th and 70th week gap of Daniel. And for all intents and purposes bracketed between it.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians 3&version=NKJV

9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that NOW the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the Church to the principalities and powers in the heavenlyplaces, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

During our Lord Jesus Messiah's ministry the 12 apostles did NOT understand the mystery of the Church. Even up to the point of His ascension the apostles were STILL thinking that the kingdom would return to Israel by Jesus. In fact every time Jesus spoke of His death they were freaking out.

Acts 1:6
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

The Church per se began at Pentecost. And arguably the fullness of the understanding of the Church was revealed in stages after that! I would argue all the way to Acts ch 10 and Cornelius and even beyond that Acts ch 15 council of Jerusalem.....and I would honestly say all the way until the epistles of Paul when only then he revealed the Church in all of its fullness and glory.

The dispensation of the revealed mystery of the Church (concealed in the Old Testament only hinted at in various types and patterns) BEGAN distinctly at Pentecost and will END distinctly at the Rapture. After the Rapture no further human beings will be redeemed to the particular status and the category of the bride of Christ. Who are but a component of a number of groups who are part of the "first resurrection".

The fact that the Church is not seen in the book of Revelation beyond ch 5 is beyond any dispute whatsoever. Chapter 6 and onward is the fulfillment of all the prophecies pertaining to Day of the Lord. All preaching efforts are now being broadcast by Israelites only! There is not one single solitary instance of a gentile preaching during the tribulation period.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the Church of chapters 2 and 3 are now in heaven in chapters 4 and 5. This is why the great commission mandate is not happening during the time of the tribulation. The Church is been removed from the time of wrath precisely as Paul has indicated.

Those who deny the pre-tribulation rapture have nothing whatsoever to substantiate their claims. Certainly not as far as the scriptures concern. An overactive imagination is useless. But the naysayers use it anyway.

(Dual Covenant Theology) A (False Teaching) Of Man, Dispensationalism's Deception!

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is Only One Covenant, The Blood Shed Upon Calvary!

Hebrews 13:20-21KJV
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[cv5]

I agree with this statement.

James 1:18 says "a KIND of firstfruit" (meaning, there is more than ONE "kind")

Leviticus 23 speaks of TWO distinct "firstfruit"... one in Lev23:10-12 and the second one in Lev23:17 (<--which verse, here, parallels Rev14:4, said of the 144,000)... but this does not necessitate that ppl have DIED (I think it applies regardless).




BTW, to be clear, I disagree with Ahwatukee's take on the 144,000... I do not believe Rev14 is saying they've died and are now located in Heaven (I do not believe the text supports this)... and I do not believe the 144,000 are "the male [G730] / the man child" [Rev12] (I believe THAT speaks of the same thing that Micah 5:3 speaks of [distinct from 5:2 which is about Jesus' birth]... and that v.3's "the remnant [returning]" speaks of those of Israel... FOLLOWING a certain point in time)

So what is your view of the Rev 12 "the man child"? The identity. You're losing me here....

 

[Phoneman-777]

That the bowl judgments are said to be last, completing God's wrath, means that there would have be other plagues of wrath that come before them, which are the seals and the trumpets. If I say "I was last in line to buy my concert tickets" it would mean that there were other people ahead of me. It is the same here:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

If the seven bowl judgments are last, then it infers that there will be other wrath that comes before them. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will be against the wicked from the opening of the fist seal.



1). There is no scripture that either mentions the church with the narrative of God's wrath, nor does it ever say that they are protected. In fact, regarding the great tribulation saints it is just the opposite, as the beast is given authority over them to make war and conquer the saints of that time, with many of them being beheaded, as described in Rev.13. The only groups that are protected are the woman of Revelation 12 which is the remnant of Israel, where He will care for her during that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

2). Because God's wrath will be affecting all of the inhabitants on the whole inhabited world, there will be no ark for the church to get on and no small city to flee to. This will be the time when the Lord fulfills His promise to come and get His church to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

The Historicist view has the Churches, Seals, and Trumpets as parallel prophecies which depicts the spiritual, political, and militaristic experience through which the church is to go through. These prophecies begin to unfold while Jesus is in the first apartment of the Heavenly Sanctuary - meaning BEFORE the 2300 Days are finished. Once finished, Jesus will move to the second apartment and begin the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary and it is when He is there that the Plagues prophecy is given.

If we count from 457 BC, the 2300 Days ended in 1844, which is why all those crazy signs in the Earth and heavens about earthquakes and dark sun and blood moon and meteors appeared in the years leading up to it. It is then Jesus began to cleanse the sanctuary which was a time of Judgment in the OT sanctuary service. So it is with Jesus in the NT.

We can’t properly interpret Daniel and Revelation unless we incorporated our Lord’s High Priestly Ministry and use the “pattern shown thee in the mount” to understand what the eschatological application is to His work in the Sanctuary.

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

How many angels do you know of that fit this description?

 

[cv5]

I just posted about some of the "chronology" issues (which is what you are missing) in the Olivet Discourse (and related passages) over in a different thread, recently. Please check out the "chronology" issues:

https://christianchat.com/threads/t...d-how-many-years-are-left.197122/post-4479991 [Post #28]



The "pre-trib" position/doctrine is NOT saying there WON'T be any "saints" existing in the trib years (many of whom will SURVIVE through to the END of it [(as "STILL-LIVING")...to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of bearing children/reproducing]... MANY will... see the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages I've listed in the past speaking of this very point/event/happening, in the chronology, like Daniel 12:12 for one example... and like Luke 21:36 for another example [<--a Trib verse, NOT a "Rapture" verse!])...

...but that those "saints" existing in the trib years (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (MANY WILL!!)... Those of them who DIE in the trib, will be "resurrected [meaning, 'to stand again' (on the earth)]" AT END OF / AFTER the Trib, at the same time that the OT saints will be "resurrected" (per what Daniel was told of himself [OT saint] in Dan12:13; per what Job said of himself in Job 19:25-27; per what Martha said [and understood aright] in John 11:24 [about "IN[/AT] the Last Day" (which is not "a singular 24-hr day," but a very lengthy [earthly-located] TIME-PERIOD [*IN which* a GREAT MANY things will transpire, including this at the commencement of the earthly MK age, upon His "RETURN" there])]; so Rev20:4b is a verse (part of a verse ) speaking of those saints who will have DIED / been martyred IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years, and "resurrected ['to stand again (on the earth)]" AT END OF / AFTER the Trib (whereas v.4a is speaking of a distinct group... which I believe the WORDING there connects it with Daniel 7:22, which I believe is speaking of "still-living" saints at the point in time being referenced).




____________

One of the things I see as being very problematic for the "post-trib" viewpoint is that, once we (believers) are "Raptured" (regardless of what you think the "destination-location" ends up being), and the rest of everyone else (the "lost / unsaved") are destroyed, as most agree happens at that point, then who is the following verse speaking of (at that point in the chronology [His "RETURN" to the earth]), Rev19:15b, "and He shall [FUTURE tense] rule [/shepherd] them [/the nations] with a rod [/sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength]"... esp. b/c of what Rev5:9 shows the "24 elders" to be saying ("hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation") and what Rev1:5-6 says similarly ("US" 3x) and also what Rev2:26-27 says (Jesus speaking, "TO HIM will I give power over the nations, and he shall rule them [/the nations] with a rod of iron... EVEN AS I RECEIVED of My Father").

To be clear, I do not believe there will be any UNsaved / UNbelievers who will ENTER the MK age (at its commencement [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES"])... though those born TO the saints (throughout the MK age) will not be "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS" and thus will be the ONLY ones susceptible to "death" in the MK age (when "death" will be much more RARE in the MK age, reserved ONLY for the rebellious [i.e. the unsaved]).

I can see no way that the "post-trib" idea can explain ALL of the related passages, but that many of the related passages are disregarded, and the "chronology" issues are butchered altogether... = )

Yup. There is deliberate and consistent design & structure all of which say the same thing.
A lot of people don't have a grip on it. Which only leads to chaos.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 14:15 has an angel commanding this v.14 Angel to reap. Definitely a sticking point, because Jesus does not take orders from any mere angel.

He does if the angel was sent to deliver a message to Christ.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Here also a shout from an Archangel means it's time for Christ to return.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

How many angels do you know of that fit this description?

Matthew 13:37-43KJV
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So what is your view of the Rev 12 "the man child"? The identity. You're losing me here....

Okay... I've posted this before...

I believe ONLY ONE 'ENTITY' is ever said to be "CAUGHT UP [harpazo / SNATCHED - G726]" (not counting the temporary ones like 2Cor12:2,4 [I believe was "Paul"]... and Philip who was relocated elsewhere on the earth, Acts 8:39); thus I believe "THE MALE [G730]" (Rev12:13) is "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (see 1Cor12:12 "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ")...

but this does NOT mean I believe the "caught up" of THAT [Rev12] passage means it is caught up AT MID-TRIB (since that's the CONTEXT of the rest of that passage), because v.13 [esp] says (of "the woman"), "which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena / arren]"... meaning, at some point PRIOR TO this context surrounding the mid-trib events (when there are "1260 days" remaining until His Second Coming to the earth); ...

I believe this "birthing" picture PARALLELS what is stated in Micah 5:3 [not 5:2 about Jesus' own personal birth], and that the "remnant [returning]" in that passage (v.3) speaks of those of Israel, FOLLOWING that "birthing" [of the ONE 'ENTITY'/'MALE' (and consequent 'CAUGHT UP' part)] point in time... and I've pointed out before about the wording in Ezek39:7 where He again calls them "My people, Israel" (which I've stated that this particular "war" is a part of the "SECOND SEAL WARS" early in the trib yrs; the WORDING in 39:7 paralleling what was said of Joseph in Gen45:1[6] "there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM when Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN unto his brethren"... when there were yet remaining "5 yrs" in his "7 year famine" [and in agreement with what Hosea 5:14-6:3 says of them, "in their affliction, they will seek Me EARLY"... and "after TWO days, will He REVIVE us" etc [i.e. after two days since the point of His ASCENSION / EXALTATION... meaning, the 2000 yrs since that point]).

So... are you guessing yet "WHO" I believe "the man child / the male [G730]" refers to (as the ONLY 'ENTITY' ever said to be "CAUGHT UP [harpazo'd / SNATCHED - G726]" ?? )


I'm not the only one to hold this view... I've posted the following in past posts:

[quoting old post]

Here's a very brief listing of those holding the view that "the man child" of Rev12 is "the Church [which is His body]" (which viewpoint I am also inclined toward believing as well), fairly certain there were [/are] more:

William Kelly (1870)

Charles Stanley (1800s [NOT the guy in Atlanta today = D ])

CH Mackintosh (1800s)

William E Blackstone (1904)

Harry A Ironside (1919)

Geneva Study Bible notes (?)

Dr Michael Svigel (DTS, 2014)



[and this one]

Anglican Rector of Midleton and Canon of Cloyne, Chester wrote in his expansive 1882 work Old Testament Light on New Testament Prophecy:

"Now if the male Man-child of Rev. xii. is to be regarded as solely representing the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into the heavens, as some interpreters affirm; or as representing the visible Christian Church exalted into political power, as taught by others, it were not easy to establish any parallelism, or any correspondence whatsoever between Zech. iii. and Rev. xii. But if the Man-child represents, as is the belief of many students of prophecy, the entire body of “the dead in Christ” raised, and the living in Christ who shall be changed, and both together caught up to meet Him in the air—or if, as I have suggested in the article above referred to—he is to be rather regarded as a portion of the Jewish people—of 'the remnant according to the election of grace' incorporated by conversion to Christ into the Church of this dispensation—and thus 'brought forth'—'born again,'—and then, 'caught up to God and to His throne,' in the rapture of the risen and living saints of 1 Thess. iv.—then, in either of these cases, I submit that this vision of Zechariah iii. corresponds most accurately."

[end quoting old post]

 

[FreeGrace2]

Conflating Israel the Church and gentiles is always the problem. The Church and Israel have different origins, different dispensations, different destinies.

I haven't conflated anything. The problem you think I have was solved in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

What is clear is that "those who belong to Him" included EVERYONE you have noted: Israel, Church, gentiles. So there is no problem.

Since ALL believers regardless of whether Jew, Church or gentiles, they ALL "belong to Him". And the verse says "when He comes". That's the Second Advent. When ALL those who belong to Him receive their resurrection bodies.

Daniel ch 9, Daniel ch 12, Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13. All spoken to Israel and Israel alone.
The Day of the Lord aka 70th week aka Tribulation/GT aka time of Jacob's trouble and the at least 1500 verses pertaining to it relate to the redemption of Israel. And fulfillment of God's obligation to them through the covenants outstanding.

Are you suggesting tha there is a diferent rapture/resurrection for the 3 groups you have noted??

The Church was a mystery revealed. Rising between the 69th and 70th week gap of Daniel. And for all intents and purposes bracketed between it.

Doesn't matter. 1 Cor 15:23 includes ALL "whose who belong to Him".

There is no doubt whatsoever that the Church of chapters 2 and 3 are now in heaven in chapters 4 and 5.

Unless one can provide actual verses that actually SAY what is being claimed here, it's just an opinion. And there is a whole lot of doubt in this opinion.

This is why the great commission mandate is not happening during the time of the tribulation. The Church is been removed from the time of wrath precisely as Paul has indicated.[/QUOTR]
Please show me any verse where Paul indicated that Jesus takes believers to heaven just before the Trib.

Those who deny the pre-tribulation rapture have nothing whatsoever to substantiate their claims.

I already have. In every post I've done today. Acts 3:21 from the Greek says that Jesus remains (received and retained) until God restores all things. How is that not clear?

1 Cor 15:23 shows that Paul understood that Christ was the FIRST resurrection, called "first fruits". And then "when He comes" which is the Second Advent, ALL those who belong to Him will be resurrected. Nothing about several individual events to resurrect all those who belong to Him. Just one event. Or the Bible would have SAID so.

Certainly not as far as the scriptures concern. An overactive imagination is useless. But the naysayers use it anyway.

I certainly agree about the overactive imagination. So please show me any verse that says that Jesus comes to the atmosphere and resurrects/raptures believers and takes them back to heaven.

 

[cv5]

I haven't conflated anything. The problem you think I have was solved in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

What is clear is that "those who belong to Him" included EVERYONE you have noted: Israel, Church, gentiles. So there is no problem.

Since ALL believers regardless of whether Jew, Church or gentiles, they ALL "belong to Him". And the verse says "when He comes". That's the Second Advent. When ALL those who belong to Him receive their resurrection bodies.


Are you suggesting tha there is a diferent rapture/resurrection for the 3 groups you have noted??


Doesn't matter. 1 Cor 15:23 includes ALL "whose who belong to Him".


Unless one can provide actual verses that actually SAY what is being claimed here, it's just an opinion. And there is a whole lot of doubt in this opinion.

Not even close. There's a lot of useful meat on the bone in this thread. And yet you are starving for truth. Why is that?