Calvinists are preaching a false message .
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Oh @Nehemiah6 where do I start? What a mess. Wait, haven't we been down this road before? Yes, if memory serves even your free willer buddies were correcting you before we were done. Thats right I remember it was really quite comical.
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1. Faith cometh by hearing and where does hearing come from? Hold on we'll come back to that. If your interpretation of this verse is correct then every person we share the gospel with will be saved upon hearing. But wait, this isn't how it works. Was Paul lying to us in Romans 10:17 or are you distorting God's word(logos by the way not every time the word "word" is used in the NT does it mean Jesus. Logos is used 331 times in the NT, only 7 of those are used of Christ and not one of the verses you quoted happens to be one of them) again?
2. 1 Peter I agree, Peter is definitely referring to the new birth, remind me again how that occurs. Better yet, hold on...
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born(gennao) again(anōthen from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God...
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God...
What!? Only those who are born from above by God the Spirit can enter the kingdom. What does this even mean, how can I get God the Spirit to re-birth me?
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Wait for it, this one of my favorite parts. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? The Greek used here could also be interpreted as: how am I able to do this?
And how does Jesus reply? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
In other words, aren't you a teacher of the word, which means the things our Lord is speaking of can be found in the OT. I wonder where, oh thats right it's the verses you all try to explain away as if God was speaking only to the Israelites about their land lol...
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
This is the new birth buddy, notice who performs it. God, God does. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I will put my spirit within you and you will... Thus sayeth the Lord.
So what are the fruits of the Spirit, or what are the actions of one who has been born from above?
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith...
Pretty awesome gifts right, oh that reminds me? For by grace(charis: especially the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life...) are ye saved through faith; and that (That? That faith?) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works(ergon which means work, deed, or doing), lest any man should boast.
Don't know how that could be any clearer, but ill try. It is by the divine influence upon the heart that you are saved through faith. Faith in who? Faith In Christ. And how do you hear about Christ? By hearing the preaching of the gospel. And how do you know the gospel is true? God, God the Spirit testifies it is true. Ergo, this faith is not ergon(a work or deed or a doing or a decision of man nor is it intact before one is born of Spirit.
Don't you get it? Every good gift is from above. Is faith in Christ good? It's the best gift ever.
Ok have to go to bed, goodnight all. Sorry you had to witness that but @Nehemiah6 and I go way back, he obviously pushes my buttons.
But I mean look at this: "At the same time, the spiritual gift of faith is given to those WHO ARE ALREADY SAVED."
Hold on, are you saying we are saved by faith in Christ at which point we are born from above by Spirit and He gives us faith in Christ?
Ok thats enough, I'm really going to bed this time... lol
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1. Faith cometh by hearing and where does hearing come from? Hold on we'll come back to that. If your interpretation of this verse is correct then every person we share the gospel with will be saved upon hearing. But wait, this isn't how it works. Was Paul lying to us in Romans 10:17 or are you distorting God's word(logos by the way not every time the word "word" is used in the NT does it mean Jesus. Logos is used 331 times in the NT, only 7 of those are used of Christ and not one of the verses you quoted happens to be one of them) again?
2. 1 Peter I agree, Peter is definitely referring to the new birth, remind me again how that occurs. Better yet, hold on...
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born(gennao) again(anōthen from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God...
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God...
What!? Only those who are born from above by God the Spirit can enter the kingdom. What does this even mean, how can I get God the Spirit to re-birth me?
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Wait for it, this one of my favorite parts. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? The Greek used here could also be interpreted as: how am I able to do this?
And how does Jesus reply? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
In other words, aren't you a teacher of the word, which means the things our Lord is speaking of can be found in the OT. I wonder where, oh thats right it's the verses you all try to explain away as if God was speaking only to the Israelites about their land lol...
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
This is the new birth buddy, notice who performs it. God, God does. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I will put my spirit within you and you will... Thus sayeth the Lord.
So what are the fruits of the Spirit, or what are the actions of one who has been born from above?
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith...
Pretty awesome gifts right, oh that reminds me? For by grace(charis: especially the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life...) are ye saved through faith; and that (That? That faith?) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works(ergon which means work, deed, or doing), lest any man should boast.
Don't know how that could be any clearer, but ill try. It is by the divine influence upon the heart that you are saved through faith. Faith in who? Faith In Christ. And how do you hear about Christ? By hearing the preaching of the gospel. And how do you know the gospel is true? God, God the Spirit testifies it is true. Ergo, this faith is not ergon(a work or deed or a doing or a decision of man nor is it intact before one is born of Spirit.
Don't you get it? Every good gift is from above. Is faith in Christ good? It's the best gift ever.
Ok have to go to bed, goodnight all. Sorry you had to witness that but @Nehemiah6 and I go way back, he obviously pushes my buttons.
But I mean look at this: "At the same time, the spiritual gift of faith is given to those WHO ARE ALREADY SAVED."
Hold on, are you saying we are saved by faith in Christ at which point we are born from above by Spirit and He gives us faith in Christ?
Ok thats enough, I'm really going to bed this time... lol
Ephesians 2:8-9
Ephesians 2:8-9
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
2.8
8For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
IT is the Gift . What is the IT ?
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: :
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation Not of works . Its a free gift . How ? Through faith.
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Notice, absolutely no context Given . No idea what the Author is saying , no central theme of the chapter, book / letter , nothing . Just 'proof texting ' . This is calvinsim ." We need a verse that fits the idea we already have " , " here's one ,look it says we must be born again to see the kingdom. Well you can't see anything because of the way Calvinism teaches on depravity and we're born blind. Blind men cannot see therfore God has to open ( regenerate us first) our eyes , ah this verse over in 2 cor says something about ' the natural man ' and we know from Calvinsm that were born from birth unable*( T) . Every proof text is seen through " oh well we know that from birth we are dead and unable to .... ( T ) .
It Goes like this . We Have the T . I believe the T . I ve learned the T ..Ah here's a verse that supports the T . The U.LI.P naturally follows once the T is decided upon .
It Goes like this . We Have the T . I believe the T . I ve learned the T ..Ah here's a verse that supports the T . The U.LI.P naturally follows once the T is decided upon .
I will say this Jesus is the Gift given to the world Because God loves. Grace is what has been given freely, those who respond to the calling by the Holy Spirit from the preaching of the Gospel message of the Lord Jesus Christ respond in faith to what they heard and believe= salvation. to respond to the giving of a gift means you receive it or reject it. God doesn't force people to be saved. No more than HE make one go to hell.
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Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. The gift is salvation because it cannot be attained by meritorious effort. Hear the word of God receive It's promises and be eternally saved.
John 3:18-19 Jesus said that some will hear and reject. They substitute their way which seems right to them for the way God has revealed in His Son.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
John 3:18-19 Jesus said that some will hear and reject. They substitute their way which seems right to them for the way God has revealed in His Son.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Sure ,let's pretend only a couple of guys read it that way . Let's pretend no one else sees how ridiculous regeneration precedes faith is . The whole point Paul is making is that ITS NOT BY WORKS . SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT . THROUGH FAITH . Sproul had to go off to seminary to be brainwashed into believing regeneration precedes faith ..He was dumbfounded when his professor wrote it on the board . He had to be taught it . This is what happens . No one ever read the bible and come up with it. Augustine introduced the philosophy and the formula of proof texting to fit the paradigm and it has been fooling people ever since. Calvinism is a set of glasses people have been duped into putting on to read the bible with. No doubt you cannot unsee it now .
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
My point exactly, do you guys not have a concordance? What is quickened?
Quickened/Susōopoieō: to reanimate conjointly with, quicken together with, revive...
Who quickens? God, God the Spirit. see Romans 8 it is God the Spirit who quickened Christ and it is God the Spirit who gives some life while we are dead in sin.
Grace: unmerited favor, the DIVINE influence upon the heart...
What is grace? It is God's unmerited favor, God's influence on the heart of man. Think new birth. Who births? God, God the Spirit does.
When does he do this? While we are dead in sin.
Let's put it this way. Does faith give life? Yes.
So if you claim the order of salvation starts with a personal choice to believe at that point you are alive right? So who birthed you, who quickened you? Well, apparently you birthed yourself. Is that what scripture says? Nope. You've just stolen the glory of salvation from the Holy God and made yourself the author of your own salvation through your own doings. This is false.
Faith is not by works: ergon: work, deed, doing, it is a gift by God's grace, His divine influence upon the heart, His quickening, which raises one from the dead giving him eyes to see, ears to hear, the Spirit of truth to know the gospel is true, the understanding of wretchedness, Godly sorrow which causeth repentance...
Read your bible people, get a concordance. Words mean things lol...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
My point exactly, do you guys not have a concordance? What is quickened?
Quickened/Susōopoieō: to reanimate conjointly with, quicken together with, revive...
Who quickens? God, God the Spirit. see Romans 8 it is God the Spirit who quickened Christ and it is God the Spirit who gives some life while we are dead in sin.
Grace: unmerited favor, the DIVINE influence upon the heart...
What is grace? It is God's unmerited favor, God's influence on the heart of man. Think new birth. Who births? God, God the Spirit does.
When does he do this? While we are dead in sin.
Let's put it this way. Does faith give life? Yes.
So if you claim the order of salvation starts with a personal choice to believe at that point you are alive right? So who birthed you, who quickened you? Well, apparently you birthed yourself. Is that what scripture says? Nope. You've just stolen the glory of salvation from the Holy God and made yourself the author of your own salvation through your own doings. This is false.
Faith is not by works: ergon: work, deed, doing, it is a gift by God's grace, His divine influence upon the heart, His quickening, which raises one from the dead giving him eyes to see, ears to hear, the Spirit of truth to know the gospel is true, the understanding of wretchedness, Godly sorrow which causeth repentance...
Read your bible people, get a concordance. Words mean things lol...
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Hi throughfaith,
Your not being very truthful with your statements. What you have stated is not what Sproul himself says.
Here's the link to the article that I presume you read. If it is not please share your reputable source that Sproul was brainwashed.
Anyhow here it is in Sprouls own words for all to read, it's only a few paragraphs.
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html
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Regeneration Precedes Faith
by R. C. Sproul
One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith."
These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:
"Faith - rebirth -justification."
I hadn’t thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus’ words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.
No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. "Prevenient" means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must "cooperate with it and assent to it" before it can take hold in our hearts.
This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.
A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -
means "together with." I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote "Regeneration precedes faith" on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.
The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.
When I began to wrestle with the Professor's argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.
These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.
This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.
by R. C. Sproul
One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith."
These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:
"Faith - rebirth -justification."
I hadn’t thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus’ words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.
No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. "Prevenient" means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must "cooperate with it and assent to it" before it can take hold in our hearts.
This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.
A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -
means "together with." I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote "Regeneration precedes faith" on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.
The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.
When I began to wrestle with the Professor's argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.
These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.
This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.
Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection
That is why they were sad, you see...
That is why they were sad, you see...
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