Calvinists are preaching a false message .

[Magenta]

Now I understand their problem they were sad

Sadly deceived

 

[Rosemaryx]

Hi throughfaith,

Your not being very truthful with your statements. What you have stated is not what Sproul himself says.

Here's the link to the article that I presume you read. If it is not please share your reputable source that Sproul was brainwashed.

Anyhow here it is in Sprouls own words for all to read, it's only a few paragraphs.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html

I know I am saved , for it was God who put me in Christ Amen...
...xox...

 

[phil36]

I know I am saved , for it was God who put me in Christ Amen...
...xox...

Amen Rosemaryx

 

[NOV25]

No one ever read the bible and come up with it...

That is a false statement. I most definitely did.

Not raised in church but in and out occasionally since 19. I prayed, felt remorse, thought I was repenting but no real, lasting change occurred until I was 38, WHAMMO 💥 I was born again, even though I dint know what that was at the time. Started devouring the word, taking notes and theorizing what and how this was occurring in my life.

John 3 was huge for me obviously, realizing I was born from above.
John 14-15-16 realizing that God dwelleth in me, that I abide in Christ and He in me.
All the verses about God granting repentance, Godly sorrow (that is sorrow given by God) which causeth repentance, but the worldly sorrow I had for over 20 years causeth death.

I could go on and on but the point is, the Spirit of truth taught me through His word. Not man, nor denomination.

About a year after salvation I was talking with an elder at church about repentance being granted and he called me a calvinist, no idea what that was.

About six months later, after reading the Bible through a few times, hundreds of pages of notes I clicked on a John MacArthur youtube video. This leveled me, prostrate on the floor I wept, here was a man saying the same things I had written in my notes time and time again. An amazing moment of confirmation as you can imagine.

My point. One who is truly born again, with no predisposition can read the word and come to the realization that we are saved by grace, the divine influence upon the heart, through faith which is a gift of God. I'd even go so far as to say, if truly regenerate you will come to this realization Lord willing.

Thats not to say I believe free willer's don't go to heaven, they just won't know how they got there till they arrive. lol...

 

[notuptome]

Regeneration Precedes Faith
by R. C. Sproul
One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith."

These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:

"Faith - rebirth -justification."

I hadn’t thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus’ words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.

No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. "Prevenient" means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must "cooperate with it and assent to it" before it can take hold in our hearts.

This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.

A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -

means "together with." I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote "Regeneration precedes faith" on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.

The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.

When I began to wrestle with the Professor's argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.

These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.

This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.

So how does all this support the claim of Calvinism? The claim that some are predestined to salvation and the rest are predestined to condemnation.

All men are given by God the ability to respond to the gospel. Adam had the ability to choose to sin or not to sin in the garden. The Holy Spirit is here to show us the choice that we must make. John 16:8-11.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[phil36]

Adam had the ability to choose to sin or not to sin in the garden

Hi Roger,

That is a great question. sorry for jumping in but its a really good question. The reformed view would be this:

I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.(a)

(a) Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good, and well pleasing to God;(b) but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.(c)

(b) Eccles. 7:29; Gen. 1:26.
(c) Gen. 2:16, 17; Gen. 3:6.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvationd) so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,(e) and dead in sin,(f) is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.(g)

(d) Rom. 5:6; Rom 8:7; John 15:5.
(e) Rom. 3:10, 12.
(f) Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13.
(g) John 6:44, 65; Eph. 2:2, 3, 4, 5; I Cor. 2:14; Titus 3:3, 4, 5.


That's just to give you the reformed view regarding Adam before and after he fell.

 

[NOV25]

So how does all this support the claim of Calvinism? The claim that some are predestined to salvation and the rest are predestined to condemnation...

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger,
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory?

 

[notuptome]

Hi Roger,

That is a great question. sorry for jumping in but its a really good question. The reformed view would be this:

I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.(a)

(a) Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good, and well pleasing to God;(b) but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.(c)

(b) Eccles. 7:29; Gen. 1:26.
(c) Gen. 2:16, 17; Gen. 3:6.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvationd) so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,(e) and dead in sin,(f) is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.(g)

(d) Rom. 5:6; Rom 8:7; John 15:5.
(e) Rom. 3:10, 12.
(f) Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13.
(g) John 6:44, 65; Eph. 2:2, 3, 4, 5; I Cor. 2:14; Titus 3:3, 4, 5.


That's just to give you the reformed view regarding Adam before and after he fell.

Luke 11:13 Jesus allows for good even in those who are evil.

Before you were saved were you so evil that you could not do any good?

Calvinists over cook simple truths of the bible.

You cannot save yourself but God gives all men the ability to respond to His word. Some receive it and live others reject it and perish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Roger,
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory?

What if it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance?

We are elect in Christ not elected into Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[phil36]

Luke 11:13 Jesus allows for good even in those who are evil.

Before you were saved were you so evil that you could not do any good?


For the cause of Christ
Roger

Isaiah 64:6

We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


-----------

Ephesians 2:1-5

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—




That's the ''heart'' of the issue. Not that every man is as wicked as he could be, and can even do good works towards fellows human beings etc.

To put it another way.. Does the unsaved man do good deeds from a righteous heart or a self righteous heart.

I think the bible says the unsaved man's works are like filthy rags.

That is why we need the righteousness of Christ.. we don't have any of our own (Matt 5:48; Rom 3:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21, Titus 3:5).




Does the unsaved man do good from a right heart with God?

 

[CS1]

That's good. You mind if I use that?

it will be my pleasure , please do sir,

 

[notuptome]

Isaiah 64:6

We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


-----------

Ephesians 2:1-5

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—




That's the ''heart'' of the issue. Not that every man is as wicked as he could be, and can even do good works towards fellows human beings etc.

To put it another way.. Does the unsaved man do good deeds from a righteous heart or a self righteous heart.

I think the bible says the unsaved man's works are like filthy rags.

That is why we need the righteousness of Christ.. we don't have any of our own (Matt 5:48; Rom 3:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21, Titus 3:5).




Does the unsaved man do good from a right heart with God?

It does not matter. Man only needs to be able to hear the word of God and be drawn to it. John 16:8-11 is the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Man cannot be saved of his own free will. God will not save a man against his will. God gives the ability through the Holy Spirit for man to submit to Gods will and be saved. Everyman is presented with this choice. Just as through Adam sin passed upon all men so God made man responsible to choose to receive Christ or reject Christ. Cane and Able each made a choice to obey or rebel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[throughfaith]

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

My point exactly, do you guys not have a concordance? What is quickened?

Quickened/Susōopoieō: to reanimate conjointly with, quicken together with, revive...

Who quickens? God, God the Spirit. see Romans 8 it is God the Spirit who quickened Christ and it is God the Spirit who gives some life while we are dead in sin.

Grace: unmerited favor, the DIVINE influence upon the heart...

What is grace? It is God's unmerited favor, God's influence on the heart of man. Think new birth. Who births? God, God the Spirit does.

When does he do this? While we are dead in sin.

Let's put it this way. Does faith give life? Yes.

So if you claim the order of salvation starts with a personal choice to believe at that point you are alive right? So who birthed you, who quickened you? Well, apparently you birthed yourself. Is that what scripture says? Nope. You've just stolen the glory of salvation from the Holy God and made yourself the author of your own salvation through your own doings. This is false.

Faith is not by works: ergon: work, deed, doing, it is a gift by God's grace, His divine influence upon the heart, His quickening, which raises one from the dead giving him eyes to see, ears to hear, the Spirit of truth to know the gospel is true, the understanding of wretchedness, Godly sorrow which causeth repentance...

Read your bible people, get a concordance. Words mean things lol...

You can emphasis and labour on this in every which way and you'll miss the point. Yes God saves , Yes God quickens , Yes God does all the work , yes God regenerates ect ect ect ..I do not deny any of this . The point is HE does this after we believe. Its through faith . This is what God requires..He made that choice to save AFTER we believe the Gosepl . This in no way means we do anything to regenerate ourselves.

 

[throughfaith]

Hi throughfaith,

Your not being very truthful with your statements. What you have stated is not what Sproul himself says.

Here's the link to the article that I presume you read. If it is not please share your reputable source that Sproul was brainwashed.

Anyhow here it is in Sprouls own words for all to read, it's only a few paragraphs.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html

Obviously he didn't say ' brain washed ' .Thats what i believed happened to him .

 

[throughfaith]

That is a false statement. I most definitely did.

Not raised in church but in and out occasionally since 19. I prayed, felt remorse, thought I was repenting but no real, lasting change occurred until I was 38, WHAMMO 💥 I was born again, even though I dint know what that was at the time. Started devouring the word, taking notes and theorizing what and how this was occurring in my life.

John 3 was huge for me obviously, realizing I was born from above.
John 14-15-16 realizing that God dwelleth in me, that I abide in Christ and He in me.
All the verses about God granting repentance, Godly sorrow (that is sorrow given by God) which causeth repentance, but the worldly sorrow I had for over 20 years causeth death.

I could go on and on but the point is, the Spirit of truth taught me through His word. Not man, nor denomination.

About a year after salvation I was talking with an elder at church about repentance being granted and he called me a calvinist, no idea what that was.

About six months later, after reading the Bible through a few times, hundreds of pages of notes I clicked on a John MacArthur youtube video. This leveled me, prostrate on the floor I wept, here was a man saying the same things I had written in my notes time and time again. An amazing moment of confirmation as you can imagine.

My point. One who is truly born again, with no predisposition can read the word and come to the realization that we are saved by grace, the divine influence upon the heart, through faith which is a gift of God. I'd even go so far as to say, if truly regenerate you will come to this realization Lord willing.

Thats not to say I believe free willer's don't go to heaven, they just won't know how they got there till they arrive. lol...

Sounds like you heard the Gospel before you believed. So many testimonies ,including my own, in which folks hear about Jesus , the Gospel ect many times through out their lives but don't believe until later . This alone refutes irresistible grace .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The “it” is faith, faith is the gift. Any person with an 8th grade reading comprehension level understands this.

Yes it is a gift

without the work of God in the cross, and conviction, our faith would be meaningless

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. The gift is salvation because it cannot be attained by meritorious effort. Hear the word of God receive It's promises and be eternally saved.

John 3:18-19 Jesus said that some will hear and reject. They substitute their way which seems right to them for the way God has revealed in His Son.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Faith is a gift also.

it’s the work of God as Jesus said in John 6

 

[NOV25]

You can emphasis and labour on this in every which way and you'll miss the point. Yes God saves , Yes God quickens , Yes God does all the work , yes God regenerates ect ect ect ..I do not deny any of this . The point is HE does this after we believe. Its through faith . This is what God requires..He made that choice to save AFTER we believe the Gosepl . This in no way means we do anything to regenerate ourselves.

You should re-read this 👆very carefully

 

[throughfaith]

That is a false statement. I most definitely did.

Not raised in church but in and out occasionally since 19. I prayed, felt remorse, thought I was repenting but no real, lasting change occurred until I was 38, WHAMMO 💥 I was born again, even though I dint know what that was at the time. Started devouring the word, taking notes and theorizing what and how this was occurring in my life.

John 3 was huge for me obviously, realizing I was born from above.
John 14-15-16 realizing that God dwelleth in me, that I abide in Christ and He in me.
All the verses about God granting repentance, Godly sorrow (that is sorrow given by God) which causeth repentance, but the worldly sorrow I had for over 20 years causeth death.

I could go on and on but the point is, the Spirit of truth taught me through His word. Not man, nor denomination.

About a year after salvation I was talking with an elder at church about repentance being granted and he called me a calvinist, no idea what that was.

About six months later, after reading the Bible through a few times, hundreds of pages of notes I clicked on a John MacArthur youtube video. This leveled me, prostrate on the floor I wept, here was a man saying the same things I had written in my notes time and time again. An amazing moment of confirmation as you can imagine.

My point. One who is truly born again, with no predisposition can read the word and come to the realization that we are saved by grace, the divine influence upon the heart, through faith which is a gift of God. I'd even go so far as to say, if truly regenerate you will come to this realization Lord willing.

Thats not to say I believe free willer's don't go to heaven, they just won't know how they got there till they arrive. lol...

Your testimony at the beginning shows how you didn't possibly understand the gospel, or believe the Gospel until much later . This is how repentence works. Changing our mind as stubborn and rigid it can be resisting until we finally do believe. The reasons are varied.

 

[throughfaith]

You should re-read this 👆very carefully

I don't see what your obviously trying to hint at ??