Are Christians more accepting of charlatans then we should be?

[KingdomBrat]

Big names backed Trump like Franklin Graham and many others. Some believe that God used trump to put the final pieces on the Chess Board. The real question is, did trump do anything that was God setting the scene for Unified and One World Government?

 

[Scribe]

Big names backed Trump like Franklin Graham and many others. Some believe that God used trump to put the final pieces on the Chess Board. The real question is, did trump do anything that was God setting the scene for Unified and One World Government?

I don't think anything significant happened related to prophecy. People seem to see something in every headline that mentions Israel and the US at the same time. I don't even see the US in prophecy. I don't think the US is necessary for any prophecies to be fulfilled. They played a role along with the UK and the Allies in giving Israel to the Jews after WWII. So president Truman should have gotten the Cyrus coin. LOL

 

[KingdomBrat]

I don't think anything significant happened related to prophecy. People seem to see something in every headline that mentions Israel and the US at the same time. I don't even see the US in prophecy. I don't think the US is necessary for any prophecies to be fulfilled.

That's why i ask because to some people Trump was a [key piece] to the Chess Match. I don't know if the USA is a part of Prophecy or not, but if we continue to protect Israel, we have to eventually cross paths prophetically to the Man of Sin even if it's to [betray] Israel.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree that we need the empowering of the Holy Spirit to preach as they received on the day of Pentecost and this was for the purpose of being a witness of Christ and teaching all nations.

I also believe that when he gave teachers to the church for their maturing until they all grow up into the image of Christ that he was not just talking about the 1st century.

I don't think we are to look only to how they did things in the 1st century and try to match it. Not everything we want to know is even recorded. We don't know exactly how they did things and there is a reason for it. We think we know but the information we have is purposely sketchy. The church was not fully matured in Paul's life time. The church has been evolving and maturing ever since.
Today we have teachers that have spent thousands of hours gleaning truths from the scriptures from seminary training that can help us shorten our own learning curves. God knew that seminaries would be developed over time. It is not true that they are not from God because they did not exist in the first century. Are they necessary? No, you can read all the same books on your own. Are reading books necessary? To be a good teacher? Yes.

I think we are meant to stick to what they taught so I think that’s probably a point we would disagree on .

I agree there are teachers I disagree that man should appoint and approve them. Or that the doctrine has changed from the gospel of the kingdom they preached

 

[Scribe]

I think we are meant to stick to what they taught so I think that’s probably a point we would disagree on .

I agree there are teachers I disagree that man should appoint and approve them. Or that the doctrine has changed from the gospel of the kingdom they preached

I don't listen to teachers who don't read. They are dumb.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I don't listen to teachers who don't read. They are dumb.

hmm yea it wouldn’t be a good idea to do that I don’t think I would use an insult to describe them but agreed

 

[Angela53510]

He died in 2010.

His ministry radically changed in the early 80s when he began to read puritan writers and began to cry out to God for a deeper revelation of Christ. Because of his preaching, probably more than anyone else, a vast majority of sold out saints rejected the Word of Faith and Hyper Faith movement and today it is no longer a major movement.

But what made him so effective is that he lived what he preached about getting shut in with God and praying until the Holy Spirit has changed the preacher and made him one with the message.

If you listen to one of his sermons, listen to one that someone has not added music to. David did not allow people to play keyboards in the background when he preached. He would call that manipulation and flesh. He relied on the Holy Spirit to open peoples hearts. by the Power of God which has nothing to do with emotional manipulation and hype.

I am not trying to glorify a man or draw attention to a man, I am trying to bring up one example in modern times of the kind of preaching that people will travel long distances to hear. It is not the man or his eloquence, it is that gift of preaching that makes Christ known to a hungry soul. What I think Paul meant by the "Power." It makes someone fall in love with Jesus.

I have not listened to that many sermons from David Wilkerson. Those that I have listened to always made me want to know Jesus even more than I already did. I think that is a mark of biblical Spirit empowered preaching.

Who is preaching like that who is still alive today? I am sure that they are out there. I believe that if you "get shut in with God" and pray to find such a church with such preaching that God will lead you to it. I believe that God always has a remnant. It should not be that hard because as you fellowship with other hungry saints who want more of Jesus, word will get around about such a church and such preaching.

I have not been a Pentecostal/charismatic for 26 years now. But, I have re-read Wilkerson's "The Cross and the Switchblade" which is a testimony of God's incredible work through Wilkerson's prayers and obedience. The story in the book took place in the 50's and he was a naive country preacher. God told him to go to New York City and preach the gospel. He obeyed, and ministered to the poor and criminals. Lives were totally changed through the preaching of the gospel, and prayer.

I do not agree with Wilkerson's soteriology, pneumatology or eschatology, but when it comes to obedience and prayer, I would not be fit to stand next to him on Judgement Day. I wish more people had his passion to preach and see God save people!

 

[Angela53510]

today the most common belief is to go to seminary and study and get a PhD from an institution and then you are authorized to preach Gods word .

that costs several thousand dollars of one takes it seriously and doesn’t go for an internet certification or anything the world demands they certify you . people want credentials .and also you have to come to thier overall conclusions about what scripture says and what does and doesn’t apply to you .

But there’s no structure that resembles anything like that in scripture that one goes to be authorized by worldly institutions first ,

it seems effect of this is rampant now

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


And of course spend millions ( rather than help the poor ) to build campasses and charge lots to attend like a worldly business .


I believe you are on to a very big problem in the world wide church , at least many on the wealthier nations

You are out of line! God's Word tells us to study to show ourselves approved. I have never met a single person during my MDiv or now working on my PhD, that was not passionate and hungry for God, and to train for ministry for God's people.

I read the Bible over 50 times in English, memorizing many verses. But God called me, and I obeyed. I am learning to understand God and his word in a much deeper way. So are the people I study with. I don't know why there are so many ignorant and unsound people in this forum,

I will say I learned more in 3 years of seminary than in the 25 years previously reading and studying the Bible in my own.

Until you have done it, maybe best to keep your mouth shut about things you nothing about.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are out of line! God's Word tells us to study to show ourselves approved. I have never met a single person during my MDiv or now working on my PhD, that was not passionate and hungry for God, and to train for ministry for God's people.

I read the Bible over 50 times in English, memorizing many verses. But God called me, and I obeyed. I am learning to understand God and his word in a much deeper way. So are the people I study with. I don't know why there are so many ignorant and unsound people in this forum,

I will say I learned more in 3 years of seminary than in the 25 years previously reading and studying the Bible in my own.

Until you have done it, maybe best to keep your mouth shut about things you nothing about.

wow you have an appealing spirit and attitude i Must say that seminary seems to be working 😅

 

[Scribe]

I do not agree with Wilkerson's soteriology, pneumatology or eschatology, but when it comes to obedience and prayer, I would not be fit to stand next to him on Judgement Day. I wish more people had his passion to preach and see God save people!

Well said. I agreed with his core message. (He sometimes interpreted scripture different than I would, but they were never deal breakers, as those verses were usually hard to interpret by anyone else as well)

I do believe that he demonstrated what we have seen many other times in church history about the puritans. If you make an extended serious effort to seek God until you find Him in a special way in prayer, you will come out of that exercise with a much more "life or death" attitude toward sin than you did going into it. Your preaching will reflect that. It seems that the more one seeks the face of God the more they see themselves as undone, of unclean lips and in the midst of a people of unclean lips. You will be more careful about what you say, what you do, and how you spend your time on this earth. A burning desire to preach holiness will be birthed in you.

God is holy and the more we set our face to seriously seek Him the more we will come out looking like Him.

 

[KingdomBrat]

I don't know why there are so many ignorant and unsound people in this forum,

I will say I learned more in 3 years of seminary than in the 25 years previously reading and studying the Bible in my own.

The outline and structure of Seminary is to focus on a topic and from there break it down. This way you're not missing anything.
On a public forum, it's basically opinions, traditions, and idealism's which have no [structure] in their foundation or competence.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The outline and structure of Seminary is to focus on a topic and from there break it down. This way you're not missing anything.
On a public forum, it's basically opinions, traditions, and idealism's which have no [structure] in their foundation or competence.

Is a seminary supported biblically ?

And if it’s something of God why does it cost money ?

What happened to spiritual gifts given by God to choose pastors , teachers , prophets ect ?


seminaries seem to fit somewhere about right here “ biblically “ speaking .

“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the reason I think that is how many different ideas seminaries teach maybe you found one that teaches the gospel that’s great if so , but take a study on different seminaries and what it is they shape into a doctrine

if they have so many different conclusions , that’s not something that is going to mean anything what seminary does someone attend ? What were they taught ? What are thier conclusions ? Is what would matter

seminaries in general can’t be ordained of God because they teach opposite ideas no different than a forum they have thier own ways of interpreting and shaping peoples thinking

the Holy Spirit is meant to do that through the WORD

this word

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That the church heard

“For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

no one needs seminary if they believe the gospel and seminaries that tell you that’s not correct are turning your ears from the truth

how about praying and studying with ones self or a brother or sister ? That prolly insufficient because the PhD might be written in crayon , but not sure a doctorate means anything to God , I think it’s a matter of belief to him

but that being said , surely there are some seminaries teaching the gospel for what it is , it isn’t a necessary thing and doesn’t offer any advantage biblically speaking it’s actually not how God chooses and prepares people for ministry ,again according to scripture.


It’s an idea that came along sometime well after the scripture

 

[Lanolin]

well
what did Jesus do with charlatans? He couldnt stop Judas from stealing, if Judas was caught he would have been on the cross instead of Jesus.

Wasnt it Peter who threw the money back when some random guy tried to pay him for the holy spirit?

As for anias and saphirra, they just suddenly dropped dead.

 

[Scribe]

Is a seminary supported biblically ?

And if it’s something of God why does it cost money ?

What happened to spiritual gifts given by God to choose pastors , teachers , prophets ect ?


seminaries seem to fit somewhere about right here “ biblically “ speaking .

“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the reason I think that is how many different ideas seminaries teach maybe you found one that teaches the gospel that’s great if so , but take a study on different seminaries and what it is they shape into a doctrine

if they have so many different conclusions , that’s not something that is going to mean anything what seminary does someone attend ? What were they taught ? What are thier conclusions ? Is what would matter

seminaries in general can’t be ordained of God because they teach opposite ideas no different than a forum they have thier own ways of interpreting and shaping peoples thinking

the Holy Spirit is meant to do that through the WORD

this word

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That the church heard

“For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

no one needs seminary if they believe the gospel and seminaries that tell you that’s not correct are turning your ears from the truth

how about praying and studying with ones self or a brother or sister ? That prolly insufficient because the PhD might be written in crayon , but not sure a doctorate means anything to God , I think it’s a matter of belief to him

but that being said , surely there are some seminaries teaching the gospel for what it is , it isn’t a necessary thing and doesn’t offer any advantage biblically speaking it’s actually not how God chooses and prepares people for ministry ,again according to scripture.


It’s an idea that came along sometime well after the scripture

If you want to know what a particular Seminary will teach you look at their academic catalogue of the classes required and the text books for each. Those text books can be purchased and read on your own.

It would be false accusation to say that a Seminary will teach people something that is not covered in those text books. That would just be us making up what we THINK a Seminary teaches rather than what it actually does in fact require that the student learn.

What Has Come After The Scripture is 2000 years of Bible Study. Capturing the many contributions made by God's gifted Teachers and Scholars through the centuries in books like Commentaries did not exist in the 1st century for obvious reasons. Discovering that they are helpful in shortening your learning curve by bringing to the forefront the best interpretations ever presented on each verse is of unfathomable benefit to the bible student. Just because they did not exist in the first century does not mean God is not behind it.

We should not think that God is not involved in anything that is not in the book of Acts. The book of Acts has no proper ending. It is obvious that it is ongoing. All that God has been doing in the power of the Holy Ghost in the Church since that day has been God's method. I discover new commentaries and books every month that I feel are a direct result of praying to God to give me revelation in His Word. He chooses to help me discover that revelation not just in reading the scripture alone but also in reading commentaries where many other scriptures are brought to my attention in a shorter time frame than if I had to discover them by rereading the bible year after year and hope I make the connections before I die of old age.

This same principle applies to Bible Colleges and it is too simplistic a view to write them off as not God's plan because they did not exist in the first century.

 

[KingdomBrat]

This same principle applies to Bible Colleges and it is too simplistic a view to write them off as not God's plan because they did not exist in the first century.

Paul visiting Synagogues to compare the Tanakh with the revelation of how Christ relates. A Seminary would fall into this classification.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Paul visiting Synagogues to compare the Tanakh with the revelation of how Christ relates. A Seminary would fall into this classification.[/QUOTE]
That is a real S-T-R-E-T-C-H. Synagogues were places of worship for Jews, just as churches are for Christians. Seminaries are equivalent to colleges, and since they all issue degrees, they are geared to academic accomplishments.

 

[Edify]

We should certainly be careful to judge semanaries as untouched by the world (perfect) or tainted by sin. The reason is we haven't been there & seen them with our own eyes. It's just not worth it.

In the Bible in Jesus' day the best taught Sanhedrin were teaching the traditions of the elders as law, perverting the people.
Matthew 15:1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

We can't say such won't happen again because it has with the catholic church. Now it happens in protestant denominations.
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things, yet many say the baptism of the Holy Spirit is no longer for the church, & others that claim to have that baptism show their ignorance of the Scriptures, causing others to believe the baptism to be no longer available.

The truth is the Bible never said the Baptism had ended, so it hasn't. Why then do we see many faults in the "Spirit filled churches"? Simple. We are in the falling away of the church, where traditions, false doctrines, and additions to the gospel have made the gospel of none effect again. ALL churches are going through this.

 

[Angela53510]

Is a seminary supported biblically ?

And if it’s something of God why does it cost money ?

What happened to spiritual gifts given by God to choose pastors , teachers , prophets ect ?


seminaries seem to fit somewhere about right here “ biblically “ speaking .

“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the reason I think that is how many different ideas seminaries teach maybe you found one that teaches the gospel that’s great if so , but take a study on different seminaries and what it is they shape into a doctrine

if they have so many different conclusions , that’s not something that is going to mean anything what seminary does someone attend ? What were they taught ? What are thier conclusions ? Is what would matter

seminaries in general can’t be ordained of God because they teach opposite ideas no different than a forum they have thier own ways of interpreting and shaping peoples thinking

the Holy Spirit is meant to do that through the WORD

this word

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That the church heard

“For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

no one needs seminary if they believe the gospel and seminaries that tell you that’s not correct are turning your ears from the truth

how about praying and studying with ones self or a brother or sister ? That prolly insufficient because the PhD might be written in crayon , but not sure a doctorate means anything to God , I think it’s a matter of belief to him

but that being said , surely there are some seminaries teaching the gospel for what it is , it isn’t a necessary thing and doesn’t offer any advantage biblically speaking it’s actually not how God chooses and prepares people for ministry ,again according to scripture.


It’s an idea that came along sometime well after the scripture

Pretty large straw man you just constructed. You can create these false images and stories about seminary all you want. It doesn't make them true. And it doesn't make you right.

With no knowledge of actually being in a real godly seminary, you are just making up straw men. No point in breaking them down. You words are imaginative, but false.

I always feel sorry for people like you, who are so deluded, and pretend to be so wise about something you have no experience or knowledge. I leave it to God to deal with your narrow, false stories.

 

[Scribe]

We should certainly be careful to judge semanaries as untouched by the world (perfect) or tainted by sin. The reason is we haven't been there & seen them with our own eyes. It's just not worth it.

In the Bible in Jesus' day the best taught Sanhedrin were teaching the traditions of the elders as law, perverting the people.
Matthew 15:1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

We can't say such won't happen again because it has with the catholic church. Now it happens in protestant denominations.
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things, yet many say the baptism of the Holy Spirit is no longer for the church, & others that claim to have that baptism show their ignorance of the Scriptures, causing others to believe the baptism to be no longer available.

The truth is the Bible never said the Baptism had ended, so it hasn't. Why then do we see many faults in the "Spirit filled churches"? Simple. We are in the falling away of the church, where traditions, false doctrines, and additions to the gospel have made the gospel of none effect again. ALL churches are going through this.

I don't know what you are trying to communicate.
Are you saying that all seminaries are teaching doctrines of men rather than the scriptures? If so you would be wrong.

Now if you don't agree with a textbook taught in a seminary that presents an interpretation of a scripture that could be because you are wrong not that they are teaching doctrines of men.

You could be teaching your own tradition instead of scripture. How do we determine if it is you that is teaching for doctrine your own erroneous interpretation or if the seminary is teaching it wrong?

We do that by learning how to interpret scripture which is a class in seminary called hermeneutics and every poster on CC bible discussion forum should read a book on it before they attempt to tell others what a scripture means.

They should use the rules in hermeneutics to make their case because if they are correct and they present their case using the rules of hermeneutics intellectually honest people will agree with their interpretation. If they are wrong they will discover it for themselves when they try to use the rules of hermeneutics to present their case and if they are intellectually honest they will change their minds and abandon their faulty interpretations.

Seminaries can teach you that or you can read a book on hermeneutics.

Rejecting what I just said or arguing against it would required making your points rather than just opinions about a "belief" that seminaries teach doctrines of men. There are bible believing seminaries. Those should not be lumped into the same category as a liberal non bible believing theological seminary. You seem to be using those as your example to paint them all.

Yes there are bad interpretation of scriptures in some seminaries. But there are probably MANY MANY more coming from ignorant people who pride themselves in reading only the bible. Lots of stupid things have been posted by many who claim to read only the bible and who don't believe in seminaries. And it shows.

 

[Edify]

I don't know what you are trying to communicate.
Are you saying that all seminaries are teaching doctrines of men rather than the scriptures? If so you would be wrong.

Now if you don't agree with a textbook taught in a seminary that presents an interpretation of a scripture that could be because you are wrong not that they are teaching doctrines of men.

You could be teaching your own tradition instead of scripture. How do we determine if it is you that is teaching for doctrine your own erroneous interpretation or if the seminary is teaching it wrong?

We do that by learning how to interpret scripture which is a class in seminary called hermeneutics and every poster on CC bible discussion forum should read a book on it before they attempt to tell others what a scripture means.

They should use the rules in hermeneutics to make their case because if they are correct and they present their case using the rules of hermeneutics intellectually honest people will agree with their interpretation. If they are wrong they will discover it for themselves when they try to use the rules of hermeneutics to present their case and if they are intellectually honest they will change their minds and abandon their faulty interpretations.

Seminaries can teach you that or you can read a book on hermeneutics.

Rejecting what I just said or arguing against it would required making your points rather than just opinions about a "belief" that seminaries teach doctrines of men. There are bible believing seminaries. Those should not be lumped into the same category as a liberal non bible believing theological seminary. You seem to be using those as your example to paint them all.

Yes there are bad interpretation of scriptures in some seminaries. But there are probably MANY MANY more coming from ignorant people who pride themselves in reading only the bible. Lots of stupid things have been posted by many who claim to read only the bible and who don't believe in seminaries. And it shows.

This is the 2nd time you misconstrued one of my posts.

We should certainly be careful to judge semanaries as untouched by the world (perfect) or tainted by sin. The reason is we haven't been there & seen them with our own eyes. It's just not worth it.

What part of that do you NOT understand?

We are in the last days. The church is going through the falling away. I don't have the expectation that any church or seminary is pure or perfect.

But I'm not 'gloom & doom' about it. "for where sin abounds grace does much more abound".